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rombsix

Posts: 6897
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

Elite Guitarist - Flamenco Track 

https://www.eliteguitaristflamenco.com/



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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 5 2019 2:52:58
 
JasonM

Posts: 935
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Elite Guitarist - Flamenco Track (in reply to rombsix

I subscribed last week just so I could check out the Antonio Rey content. My thoughts are somewhat mixed.

Antonio teaches mostly exercises and a few falsetas por Bulerias and Algerias. Then there are some short “performances” of him playing parts of his pieces. Material is good, But don’t expect a lot of tips or explanation, he just plays. It’s a lot like the Encuentro series. There are no transcriptions of the material that I have seen so far. And the videos are broken down into short 1-2min segments which an introduction at the beginning. So it gets very annoying quick. Also I found some video and audio out of sync.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 6 2019 17:20:31
 
callemunicion

 

Posts: 85
Joined: Jun. 5 2017
 

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at May 7 2019 8:59:48
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 7 2019 8:58:15
 
Neotriz

Posts: 143
Joined: Aug. 9 2010
 

RE: Elite Guitarist - Flamenco Track (in reply to rombsix

Oh that's a shame. I was really gonna check it out, but it seems if it's just gonna be fasletas without any real explanations, then I'll pass :/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 7 2019 13:59:22
 
Mark2

Posts: 1469
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Elite Guitarist - Flamenco Track (in reply to JasonM

I'm on an Antonio kick after seeing his concert. Between tabsflamenco's transcriptions, which are very reasonably priced, and the great youtube vids that can be slowed down, it's obvious what he's doing. Doing it the way he does it is another story.



quote:

ORIGINAL: JasonM

I subscribed last week just so I could check out the Antonio Rey content. My thoughts are somewhat mixed.

Antonio teaches mostly exercises and a few falsetas por Bulerias and Algerias. Then there are some short “performances” of him playing parts of his pieces. Material is good, But don’t expect a lot of tips or explanation, he just plays. It’s a lot like the Encuentro series. There are no transcriptions of the material that I have seen so far. And the videos are broken down into short 1-2min segments which an introduction at the beginning. So it gets very annoying quick. Also I found some video and audio out of sync.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 7 2019 15:51:43
 
rasqeo77

 

Posts: 24
Joined: May 23 2018
 

RE: Elite Guitarist - Flamenco Track (in reply to rombsix

Looks pretty good to me. I try not to use tabs anymore anyway - it’s so easy to slow videos down nowadays and it’s a much better way to learn.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 7 2019 17:40:11
 
himanshu.g

 

Posts: 21
Joined: Jun. 9 2016
 

RE: Elite Guitarist - Flamenco Track (in reply to rombsix

I wish watching more and more technique videos improved the technique :)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 8 2019 2:17:33
 
JasonM

Posts: 935
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Elite Guitarist - Flamenco Track (in reply to Mark2

quote:

Between tabsflamenco's transcriptions, which are very reasonably priced, and the great youtube vids that can be slowed down, it's obvious what he's doing. Doing it the way he does it is another story.


I agree what he plays is straight forward. Not having a transcript isn’t an issue when you can slow things down or loop parts. But you can’t do that with these videos - it’s more like going back to the old cassette days. Stop ,rewind, play, stop, rewind, play. This takes more time to learn and hence gets you to extend your subscription time!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 8 2019 14:30:46
 
rombsix

Posts: 6897
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Elite Guitarist - Flamenco Track (in reply to JasonM

quote:

This takes more time to learn and hence gets you to extend your subscription time!




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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 8 2019 14:59:51
 
Moloko

 

Posts: 62
Joined: Sep. 19 2015
 

RE: Elite Guitarist - Flamenco Track (in reply to rombsix

Looks like it's way more expensive than other bigger and thorough plataforms as it is tonebase (for an example) for little content with short duration, no speed control and no tab/sheet.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 9 2019 0:24:08
 
JasonM

Posts: 935
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Elite Guitarist - Flamenco Track (in reply to rombsix

One thing I picked up from these videos is regarding Pulgar. Antonio talks about practicing Pulgar and alzapua without using the wrist. Although I don’t understand him thoroughly because my Spanish is not the best. I’ve noticed him doing this before in performance and I assume you can get much faster without using the wrist. You can see him play the same exercise (and picado) from a video a while back.

https://youtu.be/sR6RFi_UxJQ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 10 2019 14:15:40
 
rasqeo77

 

Posts: 24
Joined: May 23 2018
 

RE: Elite Guitarist - Flamenco Track (in reply to JasonM

quote:

ORIGINAL: JasonM

One thing I picked up from these videos is regarding Pulgar. Antonio talks about practicing Pulgar and alzapua without using the wrist. Although I don’t understand him thoroughly because my Spanish is not the best. I’ve noticed him doing this before in performance and I assume you can get much faster without using the wrist. You can see him play the same exercise (and picado) from a video a while back.

https://youtu.be/sR6RFi_UxJQ


Actually he says that the movement should only come from the wrist. But it’s clear from the video that he uses thumb movement as well. Either he made a mistake when describing it (although he says it twice) or he just isn’t doing what he is describing. I’m guessing the latter as it’s not uncommon with players who are performers first and are not really specialists at teaching.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 11 2019 17:54:35
 
JasonM

Posts: 935
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Elite Guitarist - Flamenco Track (in reply to rasqeo77

I don’t trust my Spanish but looking at the first two Pulgar videos he says “Solo Pulgar” and he anchors his fingers on the high e string. They don’t leave the high e string like they would if he rotated his wrist.

For the Alzapua I see where he says don’t use a lot of force while he’s shaking his wrist. And he doesn’t use much of any
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 11 2019 18:59:11
 
rasqeo77

 

Posts: 24
Joined: May 23 2018
 

RE: Elite Guitarist - Flamenco Track (in reply to rombsix

Ah okay sorry I thought you just meant in alzapua. In that video he definitely says “just wrist” while his thumb is clearly moving!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 11 2019 19:33:29
 
JasonM

Posts: 935
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Elite Guitarist - Flamenco Track (in reply to rasqeo77

Confusing. Thanks for the clarification.

When Watching Dani de Moron play his super fast Pulgar stuff I also notice he uses very little wrist - especially acending lines.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 11 2019 22:04:27
 
rasqeo77

 

Posts: 24
Joined: May 23 2018
 

RE: Elite Guitarist - Flamenco Track (in reply to rombsix

Yeah the wrist movement seems to be very subtle. Personally I think you have to practise both ways - just using the wrist and keeping the thumb fixed and then using just the thumb only. Some people say using just the thumb only is wrong but in my experience it actually improves the alzapua, as well as developing the thumb. In any case, when you play up to speed the hand will naturally use the mechanism needed (in my case a combination of both but as the speed goes up the wrist seems to play a greater role).
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 12 2019 15:05:24
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11082
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Elite Guitarist - Flamenco Track (in reply to JasonM

To be clear, movement from thumb joint, wrist, and entire arm are used depending on the situation, sometimes more than just one. The wrist action is a little counterintuitive for students, it has to have a bouncy feeling at times and the angle of attack is important, so it gets over emphasized as a thing to practice or focus on. Another detail of alzapua that is missed is as the speed increases, the up stroke gets less and less wide so the chord voicing changes. You may do a full A chord slower, but at fast tempos the up stroke might only catch one or two strings like the 3rd or 4th string, as you tighten and focus the wrist motion.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 13 2019 11:59:09
 
himanshu.g

 

Posts: 21
Joined: Jun. 9 2016
 

RE: Elite Guitarist - Flamenco Track (in reply to Ricardo

regarding pulgar..
at least three pros on their lessons have said that the power/attack comes from wrist .. Gerardo Nunez, Oscar Herrero and now Antonio Rey. So, I am pretty sure Antonio Rey did not say that by mistake. That said, Antonio Rey does look like using his thumb joint alot ( clear view in https://youtu.be/UKvtOWYtpS0?t=129 and https://youtu.be/UKvtOWYtpS0?t=142 ). But probably thumb joint getting used is because of general philosophy of keeping hand relaxed and let other joints (not used for power) flex if they want to.
probably in certain situations, deliberately using thumb joint is necessary when you are anchoring. see next.

another topic is whether to anchor or not (i.e. anchoring one or more RH fingers at sound board or 1st string) . it "looks" like everyone anchors most of the time but in reality the advice I hear is to not anchor most of the time and what looks like anchoring is really not.

Ricardo has said many words of wisdom on foro and here is what I dug from the past.

Summary: Anchoring is sometimes OK.
Ricardo:
---
"Often times you do golpes (ring or ring and middle) along with your pulgar to emphasize certain notes percussively. After the golpe you can keep your fingers on the board sort of as an "anchor" but it really depends on how you are attacking the strings. This works only if you are moving just the thumb. (Watch parilla and m. Morao for example). If you are doing something that requires your wrist to move or even your arm to move, then anchoring is not possible.
---
Ref: http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=93538&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=pulgar%2Canchor&tmode=&smode=&s=#94395

Summary: It might look like that people always anchor but it is ...well ... complicated.
Ricardo:
---
Simply put, there are MANY different ways it can be done so you need a wide sampling.

Here at 5:04 the index appears to "dangle" or tickle the first or second string, but it is not being used other than to be in position for the ending arpegio where we finally hear those strings played, they are dangling sympathetically due to the wrist movement:

http://youtu.be/JZrN8khfz30

Here 10:18 again we see the fingers close to the strings dangling (a bit lower as pulgar is on 3 and 4th strings) but not touching/playing them as wrist is being used to drive thumb:

http://youtu.be/yBGMZ0D_c04

THere will be many different orientations of the technique and the fingers might end up anchored to a string in preparation for USE, so you end up with a complex mix of pulgar/index/alzapua all at once.....it will depend on the specific falseta. Here is one at :55 is a mix of stuff, there are a couple up strokes with P that make it alzapua at times, you can notice the index keeps out of the way but touching the 1st string at times but not ever "anchored".
http://youtu.be/fe8-P3Weiuc
---
Ref: http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=283275&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=&tmode=&smode=&s=#283275


Also, all of the above Maestros mentioned above have practiced thousands of hours and they can play brilliantly without following any of the "rules" , if there are any :)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 21 2019 5:04:34
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11082
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Elite Guitarist - Flamenco Track (in reply to himanshu.g

Cool, I love it when I don’t have to dig to find my old posts, thanks!

Those video links seem to have expired sadly. When used for educational purposes it’s really frustrating Aspect of the double edged sword called “youtube”.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 21 2019 10:48:29
 
szvarga

 

Posts: 49
Joined: Mar. 11 2019
 

RE: Elite Guitarist - Flamenco Track (in reply to himanshu.g

quote:

Also, all of the above Maestros mentioned above have practiced thousands of hours and they can play brilliantly without following any of the "rules" , if there are any :)


I think, there are only one "rule" after all. Play comfortable, with sound good and clear. (Ok, maybe it's more than a single one...)
And how you achieve it... anchoring or not, planting or not, use your wrist or use your thumb... your picado is im or am, your rasgueado is with a or with am or whatever... how you sitting, how you hold your guitar...

If it's sounds good and it's sound clear, and it's comfortable to play that is a perfect technique - for the one who's playing.

Of course, there are some rule of thumbs, what works more or less for the majority of us. But we are not the same anatomically, different fingers, different nails... we aren't using the same guitar with the same strings, and so on... There are many, many variations. And so there are many perfect techniques.

Sz
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 21 2019 14:36:08
 
kitarist

Posts: 556
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Elite Guitarist - Flamenco Track (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
Those video links seem to have expired sadly. When used for educational purposes it’s really frustrating Aspect of the double edged sword called “youtube”.


I found one in the web archive; the one this comment is about:
"Here at 5:04 the index appears to "dangle" or tickle the first or second string, but it is not being used other than to be in position for the ending arpegio where we finally hear those strings played, they are dangling sympathetically due to the wrist movement:"

https://web.archive.org/web/20161126151803/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZrN8khfz30


(You have to copy and paste the entire link in a browser (had to do it this way to avoid the foro software sending to youtube directly, which results in "video not available")

The video is "Paco de Lucia - Solea (HQ from TVI London); Paco de Lucia - Solea (High Quality from TVI-London-1976). It is a mix of "Plaza Alta" and "Cuando Canta El Gallo" ", and is 5:16 long, so the reference at 5:04 is almost at the end.

The second video has not been archived, unfortunately.

The third video seems to have a month worth of daily archived copies, but any I clicked on said it is not archived. However, one can at least see what it was:

"Paco de Lucia - Bulerias.wmv; La Guitarra flamenca de Paco de Lucia, Bulerias.
Add-on recording Constantin Sharoudin, St.Peterbourg, Russia"

I feel like I've seen that name "bulerias.wmv" on a PdL video but cannot find it at the moment.

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 21 2019 17:21:49
 
JasonM

Posts: 935
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Elite Guitarist - Flamenco Track (in reply to himanshu.g

quote:

regarding pulgar..
at least three pros on their lessons have said that the power/attack comes from wrist .. Gerardo Nunez, Oscar Herrero and now Antonio Rey. So, I am pretty sure Antonio Rey did not say that by mistake. That said, Antonio Rey does look like using his thumb joint alot (


Having now watched this a couple of times, I’m almost positive that Antonio is intentionally NOT using his wrist for the Pulgar exercise. It just doesn’t rotate - only to bring the thumb up if any. He also states in the accending/descending exercise “just the thumb, not the whole hand. That is another exercise”. So I do t think he is saying this is how Pulgar is to be played all the time. My view is that you could probably accend strings faster this way than rotating the wrist and hitting the strings like a piano hammer does
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 21 2019 18:13:24
 
kitarist

Posts: 556
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Elite Guitarist - Flamenco Track (in reply to JasonM

quote:

ORIGINAL: JasonM
Having now watched this a couple of times, I’m almost positive that Antonio is intentionally NOT using his wrist for the Pulgar exercise. [...] So I do t think he is saying this is how Pulgar is to be played all the time.


Well, even if he is saying this, I would not take it literally. It might have worked exceptionally well for him, but that does not mean it would for all.

Pros use both approaches as needed (or for other reasons - comfort - emphasis..).

As far as which one is faster for alzapua - it should be the wrist approach.

While the thumb trajectory is probably slightly different between thumb-only and wrist rotation, the main advantage of the wrist rotation I can think of is that you have a much longer "thumb", so that you get to move less from the wrist to trace the same span of trajectory; and because of that, you can also go back and forth more easily and likely faster.

Also, intense and fast thumb-only work (without wrist rotation) may irritate the sheaths of the extensor policis brevis and the abductor policis longus tendons; essentially getting something like De Quervain syndrome.

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 21 2019 19:53:25
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11082
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Elite Guitarist - Flamenco Track (in reply to JasonM

quote:

ORIGINAL: JasonM

quote:

regarding pulgar..
at least three pros on their lessons have said that the power/attack comes from wrist .. Gerardo Nunez, Oscar Herrero and now Antonio Rey. So, I am pretty sure Antonio Rey did not say that by mistake. That said, Antonio Rey does look like using his thumb joint alot (


Having now watched this a couple of times, I’m almost positive that Antonio is intentionally NOT using his wrist for the Pulgar exercise. It just doesn’t rotate - only to bring the thumb up if any. He also states in the accending/descending exercise “just the thumb, not the whole hand. That is another exercise”. So I do t think he is saying this is how Pulgar is to be played all the time. My view is that you could probably accend strings faster this way than rotating the wrist and hitting the strings like a piano hammer does

He was doing pulgar on adjacent strings. It’s like the ppi thing minus the “i”. This tech requires thumb joint only. In fact anything doing down ward motion even an ascending scale, with pulgar requires thumb joint falling action. If you play a descending scale or simply a group of notes on one bass string alone, you must (read as “should because that is what they are advocating however you can still do it thumb only, but it’s not cool”) engage the wrist action.

Alzapua no anchor reference 5:04:


_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 22 2019 10:41:00
 
jalalkun

Posts: 272
Joined: May 3 2017
From: Iraq, living in Cologne, Germany

RE: Elite Guitarist - Flamenco Track (in reply to rombsix

if you look at oud players, their motion comes exclusively from the wrist due to the fact that they play with a reesha. it's kind of like pulgar, albeit the difference in hand position. and these dudes get mad speeds. also I believe if you play pulgar/alzapua with the finger only and without/with little wrist motion you might f*ck up your thumb joint very quickly, which is in itself quite a sensitive joint.

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My name is Jalal.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 22 2019 12:21:00
 
rombsix

Posts: 6897
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Elite Guitarist - Flamenco Track (in reply to jalalkun

Friends, not trying to be a smartass here, but what everyone calls movement "from the wrist" is not really a wrist motion. It's in fact pronation/supination of the forearm. There is minimal, if any, actual flexion/extension/abduction/adduction of the wrist joint per se.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2468122916301591



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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 22 2019 13:17:58
 
jalalkun

Posts: 272
Joined: May 3 2017
From: Iraq, living in Cologne, Germany

RE: Elite Guitarist - Flamenco Track (in reply to rombsix

actually you are perfectly right, not being a smartass 😂

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My name is Jalal.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 22 2019 15:08:02
 
kitarist

Posts: 556
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Elite Guitarist - Flamenco Track (in reply to rombsix

quote:

ORIGINAL: rombsix

Friends, not trying to be a smartass here, but what everyone calls movement "from the wrist" is not really a wrist motion. It's in fact pronation/supination of the forearm.


Smartass! It is a wrist motion - of rotation around the long axis of the forearm, thus of the whole forearm+wrist+hand from the elbow. Talking about the rotating wrist is a reference of focus, not of exclusion of other parts moving as well. But yes, good clarification.

Also when we talk about finger motion, we are referring to flexors and extensors in the forearm and some little guys in the hand itself (ok a bit unfair comparison)

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 22 2019 15:31:29
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 2604
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Elite Guitarist - Flamenco Track (in reply to kitarist

Now that we're pronating and supinating, I'll mention a different aspect of the Elite Guitarist site.

Watching Kai Narezo on a different channel, I decided my rasgueados might profit from modernization. Narezo demonstrated by resting the right thumb parallel to the soundboard, distal joint flexed, on the upper side of the sixth string, and flicking the fingers against the thumb. Sounded pretty good.

When I tried it the way Narezo did it, it didn't work. My right thumbnail rested on the string, not the flesh of the right thumb, and it made the whole setup unstable.

My thumbs are about twice as broad as Narezo's, so the right nail needs to be longer than his.

On Elite Guitiarist, Jose Tanaka teaches rasgueado. He demonstrates the way Narezo does it, then says, "Don't do that. Do this." He pronates a little further, hooks his thumb between the string and the sound board, and flicks. I tried that. It worked for me. It lifts the fingers a little bit so they don't catch on "upstrokes."

(Pronation: Hold you hand with the palm inward, parallel to your belly.. Rotate the upper arm so the thumb goes closer to your belly. That's pronation, supination is the other way. The term refers to the direction of rotation, not the starting position.)

I've got a ways to go before I get back up to speed on bulerias, but I feel like it's going to work--and sound better.

Trouble is, Sabicas and Niño Ricardo are starting to sound a little mushy.

The Tanaka video is a free sample. I haven't signed up for the $30/month deal.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 23 2019 0:24:53
 
kitarist

Posts: 556
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Elite Guitarist - Flamenco Track (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan

(Pronation: Hold you hand with the palm inward, parallel to your belly.. Rotate the upper arm so the thumb goes closer to your belly. That's pronation, supination is the other way.


My little trick is to think of supination being the one where you rotate your forearm so that one can pour 'soup' into the palm (the supinated hand being the "bowl" which receives the soup) Sort of a homophone-based memory aid.

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 23 2019 5:53:11
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