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Goldwinghai

Posts: 90
Joined: Mar. 17 2015
From: Virginia USA

RE: Roasted spruce (in reply to Sr. Martins

Agree.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 8 2018 11:41:03
 
keith

Posts: 1105
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Land of Daniel Boone

RE: Roasted spruce (in reply to Tom Blackshear

As I recall the good violin professor was doing experiments using bovine urine to cure spruce. I guess slow roasting spruce has to smell better than urine soaked spruce.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 8 2018 11:50:27
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3654
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Roasted spruce (in reply to Goldwinghai

Cream that´s meant to distribute moisture deeper into the skin contains urea, but does not smell like pee.

Smell can be had other ways. I own a guitar that was taken to exhibition. It took a bunch of years and multiple times cleaning with damp clothes to remove subtle but unpleasant scent from finish.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 8 2018 13:00:42
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 1762
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: Roasted spruce (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ruphus

Cream that´s meant to distribute moisture deeper into the skin contains urea, but does not smell like pee.

Smell can be had other ways. I own a guitar that was taken to exhibition. It took a bunch of years and multiple times cleaning with damp clothes to remove subtle but unpleasant scent from finish.


Strangely enough, there is a Blackshear guitar with a vanilla scent for sale, and I have no idea where that came from.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 8 2018 13:42:04
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3654
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Roasted spruce (in reply to Goldwinghai

I could think of a piece of natural vanilla just laying in the corpus to make connifer wood adapting the smell for a very long time. (In past times, people used to put such a piece into their shirt pockets.) Personally, I prefer the woods own odeur though.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 8 2018 14:23:39
 
JasonM

Posts: 647
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Roasted spruce (in reply to keith

Don’t know about cow pee but I find that filling my sound hole dehumidifier with horse pee is good for the hide glue joints.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 8 2018 14:46:30
 
keith

Posts: 1105
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Land of Daniel Boone

RE: Roasted spruce (in reply to Goldwinghai

ruphus, urea is one thing, bull piss is another. JasonM, another thing you can use in humidifier is Budweiser. Bud is made using two very long troughs. One trough contains water. The Bud people lead in the Clydedales in to drink from the trough filled with water. The other trough collects what is used for their beer.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 8 2018 15:09:05
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3654
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Roasted spruce (in reply to keith

quote:

ORIGINAL: keith

ruphus, urea is one thing, bull piss is another.


I stand corrected.

PS: Connifer woods adapting smell.
In my place in northern Germany the upper floors walls were covered with spruce pannels. There was also a little storage room in which I put a bag with dried oriental herbs (characterstic of a certain very aromatic stew) which someone had asked me to keep for a while. The bag (although of plastic / insulating rather well) remained in there for a couple of months before it was picked up by the owner.
In all the coming years afterwards, whenever I opened the door of that storage room the fragrance would be there strong like ever, each time causing me appetite for said stew.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 8 2018 15:13:27
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 1762
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: Roasted spruce (in reply to keith

quote:

ORIGINAL: keith

As I recall the good violin professor was doing experiments using bovine urine to cure spruce. I guess slow roasting spruce has to smell better than urine soaked spruce.


Well, I personally have one set of Nagavary treated spruce left in my shop to work with and it has no smell to it.

I could go into a hyperbolic rant like some have done but let's stay with the facts.

Perhaps the treatment went totally inert after the soaking process dried. My understanding is that Joseph mimicked the solution of the Adriatic Sea for the soaking process.

I could be wrong, as I didn't ask for the treatment, which was proprietary to begin with.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 8 2018 19:56:27
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 1762
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: Roasted spruce (in reply to Tom Blackshear

I might add that all of this talk about roasted spruce; if it has some merit, and actually works, then it should be acceptable as an alternative technique for guitar tops.

Whatever the future holds for this addition, will most likely come out in the wash.

I refused Joseph's process for one thing only, as it seemed virgin spruce was a complete and necessary foundation for me to work with on guitar tops.

But violins are another point.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 10 2018 17:11:49
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 2469
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Roasted spruce (in reply to Tom Blackshear

In the only peer reviewed Nagyvary article I have come across so far, in Nature, the wood samples analyzed were maple, from backs/sides of Stradivari, Guarneri and other instruments.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2018 10:37:54
 
keith

Posts: 1105
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Land of Daniel Boone

RE: Roasted spruce (in reply to Goldwinghai

the source I used

http://discovermagazine.com/2000/jul/featviolin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2018 15:46:37
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 1762
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: Roasted spruce (in reply to Richard Jernigan

Richard, I know very little about the current Nagavary process except to say that some Taiwanese violin makers are now using the Nagavary process. He told me on the phone some months ago about an update he was involved in. Nagavary is now in his 80's. And it's been since 1986 that I was involved with this.

I would like to try a roasted top experiment/build but I first have to contact a reliable source to supply the top that has been roasted/treated properly.

Anyone got a number?

Due to the nature of my classical guitar build I have no interest in peer review about steel strung guitars.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2018 18:31:18
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3654
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Roasted spruce (in reply to Tom Blackshear

Tom,

This man could know where specifically treated spruce might be available:
Dr.-Ing. Alexander Pfriem, Tel. 0351 463-39181
E-Mail: alexander.pfriem@tu-dresden.de

While I was googling for his contact data for you, me came across two detailed descriptions, which could be informing for those interested.

This Wiki-article on basics:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermally_modified_wood

Saying treatment makes wood more durable, less receptive to humidity / swelling / warping / cracking and to temperature fluctuation. Drawback: less sturdy in construction statics. And that it turned out positive for instruments quality.

On the later, following link: https://idw-online.de/en/news205800 , which I just sent through a translating mashine.

quote:

Thermowood improves the acoustic properties of musical instruments - Friedrich-und-Elisabeth-Boysen-Förderpreis 2006 awarded

Kim-Astrid, Magister Press Office
Technical University Dresden

In his dissertation, Alexander Pfriem from the Institute for Wood and Paper Technology of the TUD investigated for the first time the use of thermally modified woods in the construction of musical instruments - with success. The environmentally friendly material, which makes the use of tropical woods largely superfluous, also improves the sound of the instruments. For this, the scientist was awarded the Förderpreis der Friedrich-und-Elisabeth-Boysen-Stiftung 2006 in Dresden last weekend.

What is the difference between the darker thermo wood and normal wood, and how is it made? Wood consists essentially of three components: cellulose and lignin, which are responsible for the compressive and tensile strength of the material, and hemicellulose, which binds the other two substances together. If wood is now heated to 180-220 ° C with oxygen being excluded, this third component is primarily mined; the short-chain sugar molecules crystallize out. Due to the degradation of hemicellulose the docking points for water are missing; The wood swells and shrinks less and is less prone to wood consuming organisms. However, as the heating time increases, the strength properties also decrease more and more. The corresponding procedures were originally developed and patented in Germany. Since the mid-nineties, thermo wood has been used in various European countries primarily as weather-resistant facade and floor wood.

Since heating also changes the acoustic properties of the wood, thermo wood should also be of interest to the musical instrument industry, thought dr. Awl. In a joint project with the Institute for Musical Instrument Making Zwota, which was funded by the Association of Industrial Research Associations (AiF), he investigated the material behavior of thermally modified woods, their damping and elastic properties. A musical instrument maker made a series of guitars with thermal wood ceilings, and the instruments were characterized, tested and evaluated in a cooperation of the TU Chair Wood and Fiber Material Technology with the Institute for Musical Instrument Making in Zwota. Result: the acoustics of the wood are significantly improved by the thermal modification. An instrument maker from Vienna now offers successfully handmade plucked thermowood instruments.

In wind instruments such as the bassoon or instruments such as the harmonica, not at last the lower water absorption is a major argument for the new material. Investigated with funds from a DFG project
Dr. Pfriem therefore now more accurately invests the moisture transport in the wood. His next research object is the Queen of Instruments, the organ. Financing applications have been made, with three organ builders from Saxony first contacts.


PS:
Regarding smell: It´s said to have a smokey smell which ought to fade away though.
Could be it makes appetite for smoked fish filets.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 12 2018 4:07:55
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3654
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Roasted spruce (in reply to Goldwinghai

Found a maker who is using the "TU wood".

https://www.hanika.de/files/global/downloads/broschueren/HANIKA%20Native%20Gitarren%20EN%202017.pdf

Maple dark like RW seems to be looking great!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 12 2018 5:17:29
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 1762
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: Roasted spruce (in reply to Ruphus

Ruphus, thank you for your time; you're very kind but I must stay in the USA for convenience sake. I'll check with some guitar companies here. Maybe Martin.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 12 2018 6:44:09
 
keith

Posts: 1105
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Land of Daniel Boone

RE: Roasted spruce (in reply to Goldwinghai

Tom, Martin Guitars is now advertising using a semi-torrefied top and Martin says they use a source near their factory (I assume it is in or near PA). As I understand what Martin says in the video, they do not torrefy the wood to the usual extreme so the wood does not darken like a fully torrefied piece but takes on the sound qualities. In their promo video Martin says the torrefecation "factory" uses a company that preps wood for outdoor use so that may be a clue to finding them. Martin may be interested in sharing the source with a non-steel string builder as it could validate the process. It may be worth a shot.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 12 2018 10:52:56
 
printer2

 

Posts: 54
Joined: Sep. 19 2015
 

RE: Roasted spruce (in reply to Goldwinghai

And here I saw the title of the thread and then how many pages have already been posted and thought to myself, I probably don't have much to add by now. And then I skipped through much of the conversation. Seems I didn't arrive late to the party.

Torrified wood myself in normal air, just skirting the temperature where things get interesting. Have done spruce, pine (not recommended in air), birch, maple, oak, jatoba, cedar, cherry, I think I did a test piece of walnut but not a full sized piece. Read up about the process, digging for information for a month or two, it mainly comes down to removing some hemicellulose. Hemicellulose is what mainly absorbs or gives up water when the humidity changes.

Titebond ans similar glues need more clamp time to get a good bond, when you put a bead of glue on the treated wood it balls up as the water portion of the wood does not wet the wood easily. There is a company that treats wood for major manufactures in North Dakota or Minnesota, can't remember which. They do it in an air environment. Think I showed a spruce guitar I built with the wood here a while ago. You can tell the difference between what the wood is like before and after being treated, less dampening. Not a 'Oh my god!' amount but noticeable. I do understand the sentiment that it can make a greater improvement in a less desirable piece than a great piece of wood. A great piece of wood has less distance to increase than a lessor wood.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 15 2018 0:23:41
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