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Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

**Learning CANTE together** 

**ADVISORY**
I am by no means an authority, and I’m just posting as I learn to hopefully spread the germ of learning to everyone else.

Any mistakes I’m glad to hear about them cough cough(Ricardo)

This is from “Tomasa la Macanita” and the song is “Buleria a palo secs (Buleria de la Mocita)”

Tomasa la Macanita AKA La Macanita is from Jerez de frontera, her style is very much Jerez typical. These letras are very much jerez typical, and I’m doing my best to keep that Jerez groove but I’m absolutely new to it. My goal here is to make it through the entire song and hopefully demystify cante a little bit for the guitar-centric folk who are stuck where I was about a year ago. I’ve found appreciation for something comes through understanding.

Here’s the first two letras.

This first letra chord changes to Dmin on the 10, then to E7 on the next 10, then it combios twice.
The second letra starts on a half compas where I just do 6-8-10(A-Bb-A) Then do a one compas remate, and go back to regular compas.



(A Dmin)

Virgen de la Merce

(Dmin E7)

Virgen de la Merce

(Cambio)

con mi gustito logre

y un habito vi a rompé

(Cambio)

A media companero

y un habito vi a rompé

SECOND LETRA

(half compass here)

Mio que será esto

(A-Bb-A (normal compass))

Dios mio que será esto

(A Dmin)

Mio que será esto

(Cambio)

que ni penita ni calentura

que de penita me estoy muriendo



If you want more explanation about combios or remates or whatever please post questions and comments and feel free to add you’re own videos to this. No question is a dumb question because I'm also dumb.
It'd be great if anyone else took the time to write and chord out a letra like this, I feel like this would have been a big help to me when I was starting.

_____________________________

\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 3 2018 2:46:12
 
rombsix

Posts: 7622
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: **Learning CANTE together** (in reply to Leñador

quote:

No question is a dumb question because I'm also dumb.




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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 3 2018 12:22:08
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13515
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: **Learning CANTE together** (in reply to Leñador

Nice work. Three points only.

1. You leave lots of space at times and let the palmas carry the compas. This is sometimes cool to do as you get advanced but I feel at early stages the accompanist should dot the i’s And cross the t’s so to speak.... have all the nooks and crannies filled and later you can be more subtle about it. Check your count 6 golpes for example , some are a hair late and that won’t happen if you carry the groove on through.

2. Moraito blue printed some definative stylist things. One important one is the E7 change .... hold on to the D min through 10, 11 and give a strong downbeat accent on count 12 (or a triplet accent 12&ah one...) with the E7. In the case of half compas you wait till 6 but of course it becomes a new 12 so to speak. After this counts 2-5 are carried by palmas... but ONLY here is where you leave space I was talking about above... and be real careful that you are locked in when come back in for the cambio.

3. In hind sight, and at risk of arranging your accompaniment, you have the opportunity to introduce the concept of the half compas remate in the first letra. I hazard a guess it’s what’s in her head as she comes in at the half compas point with the second letra. So I suggest that after she repeats the cambio ( not the first time) you omit the 12-2-4 feel of the resolution “y un habito vi a rompé” and make a 6-8-10 feel. You will see the rest will then fit like a glove cuadrao.

Maybe you remember this? In my video on page one I demo these exact points:
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=285237&mpage=1&p=&tmode=1&smode=1&key=foro%2Cjuerga

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 3 2018 16:42:42
 
kitarist

Posts: 1551
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: **Learning CANTE together** (in reply to Leñador

This is awesome stuff, guys, really informative. More, please

Is there an equivalent to the solea and siguiriyas letras classifications of Norman at Cante Y Toque, for bulerias?

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 3 2018 18:13:31
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: **Learning CANTE together** (in reply to Leñador

Absolute gold thanks Ricardo!
I completely forgot about that thread! Next video I’ll do the third letra and add those modifications to the first two.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 3 2018 19:01:36
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3359
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: **Learning CANTE together** (in reply to Leñador

Good work, Lenny! I think you have started something important. And Ricardo's contribution adds to it. It may be that cante on the Foro will require a separate, ongoing thread of its own if your beginning takes off. Just keep adding to it.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 3 2018 21:22:22
 
eccullen

 

Posts: 91
Joined: Aug. 14 2007
 

RE: **Learning CANTE together** (in reply to BarkellWH

Agree! Very cool.
... thanks for starting this conversation !
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 4 2018 0:19:30
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: **Learning CANTE together** (in reply to Leñador

I got impatient and wanted to TRY and implement Ricardos pointers. Pretty sloppy but I hope you can see where it's changed a bit compared to the previous.



quote:

Is there an equivalent to the solea and siguiriyas letras classifications of Norman at Cante Y Toque, for bulerias?

I may need to be corrected but I don't believe so, bulerias don't seem so nicely organized, there's certainly letras that are more popular in certain cities than others and there's for sure some letras that are absolutely from that city but I think for the most part people use all kinds of letras no matter where they're from, possibly due it being maybe the most commonly sung palo in parties. I think Jerez letras have basically saturated the canon and all the cities more or less sing a lot of Jerez letras. There is though 1,000% a vibe/funk/soniquete to each city though.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 4 2018 2:33:36
 
henrym3483

Posts: 1558
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: **Learning CANTE together** (in reply to Leñador

been waiting for a thread or section like this for a long time. the Cante accomp thread has been a mine of knowledge. If i was being honest, what i would like to see and can contribute also would be

1) talking about cambios de acordes for the accompaniment
2) different remates or closings/intros/variations for each cante related to the guitar.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 4 2018 12:58:00
 
JasonM

Posts: 1853
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: **Learning CANTE together** (in reply to Leñador

So my understanding of remates and cambios are that a remate is when the singer stops on count 4 of 6 (in 3/4 time the *and of beat 3). essentially you have a rest until the next cycle. Your half compass is also considered a remate.

Cambio is the end of the letra that starts with the C dominant chord. May or may not repeat.

Is this all correct?


Great post Len!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 4 2018 15:22:22
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13515
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: **Learning CANTE together** (in reply to Leñador

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leñador

I got impatient and wanted to TRY and implement Ricardos pointers. Pretty sloppy but I hope you can see where it's changed a bit compared to the previous.



quote:

Is there an equivalent to the solea and siguiriyas letras classifications of Norman at Cante Y Toque, for bulerias?

I may need to be corrected but I don't believe so, bulerias don't seem so nicely organized, there's certainly letras that are more popular in certain cities than others and there's for sure some letras that are absolutely from that city but I think for the most part people use all kinds of letras no matter where they're from, possibly due it being maybe the most commonly sung palo in parties. I think Jerez letras have basically saturated the canon and all the cities more or less sing a lot of Jerez letras. There is though 1,000% a vibe/funk/soniquete to each city though.


Good job...except your half compas you added for no reason AFTER the letra was over... my idea was you need to learn to rematar en el seis... the last line of verse you cut it...don’t do the 12-2-4 march of chords, just resolve Bb-A right away.

About buleria classification....the buleria por solea classification on norman’s Site covers the bulk of it. It’s those same melodies just faster, with some solea styles such as frijones or carapiera (major key shift) crammed in really fast. (Lenny is doing buleria corta first, buleria larga second above) Of course cramming the melodies rhythmically changes A LOT of details so they might not be so recognizable as “the same thing”.

And of course there are some standards not on the list...the one that goes A7-E7 por medio, I heard Vallejo doing and it was called “pregones”....then there are the jerez standards like “amante pajarero...” (which is quite similar to the carapiera solea melody), “nada mas quieres dinero gitana” (similar to jerez anonymous solea)...”por dio Tomasa”, “pilon pilon pilon”, etc, that we refer to as buleria remates, or tags that added to solea could certainly use classification. Beyond these, you have the modern standards such as those rancheras or guapangos or other canciones that have become standards...the Pepe de lucia composed estribillos that Camaron and everybody else has recorded...inventions of camaron too, some personal “cuples” of La perla and others, paquera etc....it’s a lot of stuff that has become standard in modern times, and yet it’s not really part of the tradition as are the soleas and siguiriyas, all the fandangos and malagueña, cante de La Mina, etc. the mixture of these different “songs” is often called “cuple” as a catch all. Of course you can do “fandangos” por buleria as well.

It’s for this reason I have been saying the cante is being created and evolved through buleria and tangos type “chico” forms because singers can get away with it more than creating new solea styles for example. It didn’t have to go that way, but it’s just what has happened over the years.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 4 2018 16:44:59
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13515
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: **Learning CANTE together** (in reply to JasonM

quote:

ORIGINAL: JasonM

So my understanding of remates and cambios are that a remate is when the singer stops on count 4 of 6 (in 3/4 time the *and of beat 3). essentially you have a rest until the next cycle. Your half compass is also considered a remate.

Cambio is the end of the letra that starts with the C dominant chord. May or may not repeat.

Is this all correct?


Great post Len!


To be clear, most letras are 3 lines of verse...call em A B and C. Each one is like 8 syllables or so, so you have approx one compas for each line of verse. Your A line of verse might repeat and the melody tells the guitarist what chord...either (por medio) Stay on A, go to Bb back to A, go to Dm or Bb, or E7 for buleria corta.
The “cambio” YES refers to the B line of verse that resolves C7-F most typically...sometimes reverse cambio works F-C7, basically the same function phrasing wise, or in cases of exremadura you go F7-Bb...some singers might throw that in singing Eb note to call it.

It (B line of verse) is typically ONE Compas only however Caracol is famous for the “una Reina no era” where you have to stay an extra compas or half compas depending on delivery, before resolving to F....La paquera is famous for extending this B line of verse SEVERAL compases to dramatic effect.

The C line of verse is the resolution (Bb or some darn thing BACK to A). HOW you the guitarist resolves this line is called the “Remate”...it could be half compas or cuadrao it’s the choice of the guitarist. The most common way this is sung is marked contratiempo syllables (as in len’s video above).

It is most common that both B and C lines are repeated together. In the case of solea Norman has very detailed examples of how singers will deal with the ABC verse arrangements....but not to confuse the issue for guitar players, the BC repetition I refer to is MUSICAL...meaning if the A lyric is repeated verbally, the melody is still a repeat of what ever happened on the first time B-C occurred. Hope that makes sense.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 4 2018 17:03:02
 
kitarist

Posts: 1551
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: **Learning CANTE together** (in reply to Ricardo

Thank you Lenny and Ricardo. [EDIT: posted before seeing Ricardo's latest just above]

Probably a very stupid question, but when people are referring to particular letra classification, like "frijones 1", what characteristics are assumed to be referred to? Is it the whole package of (1) the particular words within a line (or the number of syllables?), (2) the way the lines are arranged, (3) the repetitions, (4) the harmonic progression within that, and the (5) pitch and (6) duration sequences for syllables within each line? Or one or more but not all these characteristics?

In other words, is the fully-defined "building block" a single line of particular words (or the number of syllables?), and the way they are sequenced (including repetitions)? Or is the way they are sung (the pitch and duration sequence for the syllables within each line of words) also assumed defined? Or is it that the harmonic progression is assumed defined, but the sequence of syllable pitches/duration can vary somewhat as long is it stays within that harmonic progression?

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 4 2018 17:28:26
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13515
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: **Learning CANTE together** (in reply to kitarist

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitarist

Thank you Lenny and Ricardo. [EDIT: posted before seeing Ricardo's latest just above]

Probably a very stupid question, but when people are referring to particular letra classification, like "frijones 1", what characteristics are assumed to be referred to? Is it the whole package of (1) the particular words within a line (or the number of syllables?), (2) the way the lines are arranged, (3) the repetitions, (4) the harmonic progression within that, and the (5) pitch and (6) duration sequences for syllables within each line? Or one or more but not all these characteristics?

In other words, is the fully-defined "building block" a single line of particular words (or the number of syllables?), and the way they are sequenced (including repetitions)? Or is the way they are sung (the pitch and duration sequence for the syllables within each line of words) also assumed defined? Or is it that the harmonic progression is assumed defined, but the sequence of syllable pitches/duration can vary somewhat as long is it stays within that harmonic progression?


Mostly number 5...pitch or “pitches” that correspond to the melody. There is some rhythm tied to those pitches that together result in the phrasing, and I have argued that the rhythm is a sort of “free interpretation”, or USED to be, not unlike fandangos or cantes Libre set over top of some underlying compas, though some disagree with me. Norman often refers to “melodic arcs” to compare the melodies....I of course would prefer if we just think of an actual transcribed and written melody line. There is an implication that there is a sort of bare bones skeleton of each style melody, however in reality no such thing exists as what we have are various interpretions. These interpretations clearly follow a blue print sketch of a melodic line, but it’s impossible to know what the original was that all the variants derive from.

Beyond that all your other points are all factors too, but more often add it up to confusion IMO. A good example is compare Joaquin 1 to Serneta 1. Considered different styles, different people, different region, different delivery, and even melodic details (serneta reaches up to the 6th degree and Joaquin supposedly does not go above the 4th). To me as musician both of these melodies clearly derive from the SAME EXACT parent melody, it’s as if Joaquin is a tired drunk guy’s attempt at serneta 1 but could not reach the notes...so you have to distinguish somehow. If a singer delivers the first line like Joaquin 1...then repeats like Serneta 1 would, then what do you call it??? Also the “ay ay” is supposed to be in the cambio of serneta but not Joaquin, but what if it’s not done? Well some would say it’s just bad taste to do that, or the singer doesn’t know or care...but I would say its the type of freedom the singer actually has. It seems the more details an interpretation contains, the more important a figure that cantaor is. But mixing of styles has become common practice.

Of course knowing the details does not have to take away the enjoyment from a performance, I have to admit after learning what’s going on I am not as impressed with certain singers, and more impressed by others, than when I was casually listening to cante in the beginning.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 4 2018 17:54:48
 
kitarist

Posts: 1551
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: **Learning CANTE together** (in reply to Ricardo

Thank you very much. I don't know why it was not obvious to me that Norman's As Bs Cs... were referring to lines of MELODY, not to lines of words, and that the repetitions are repetitions of the melody (well, to confuse things, a lot of times they are also repetitions of the words). Now it is clear, after reading your explanation, that this is what he means - as I start rereading his exposition and see the same "B" or "C" can have different words within the same style. Somehow he never says this explicitly. Even his terminology section only talks about a verse being a "predetermined arrangement of lines, syllables, and rhyme" - even though he uses the lettering to classify lines by their *melody*, apparently.

Given this, it would have been great if one can see visually the melodic lines next to each classification, so that we can compare also how the As maybe vary between different singers or regions. I think Norman's lettering is local, not global - meaning there is no implication or assumption that all melodic lines marked "A" are the same one melodic line, etc.

It makes sense that the singers would have freedom to stretch and compress the duration of pitches within a given melodic line - either to jam more syllables if there are more than the usual number, or as a personal stylistic expression.

I think knowing, understanding all this just adds layers of enjoyment to make it a richer listening experience (or a more deeply informed guitar accompaniment). I don't subscribe to the notion, which seems somewhat popular in some arts, that if you get to understand the details you lose the magic. To me the magic is only enhanced. Actually magic is probably not a good word because a magician depends on his audience not understanding how something happened or else his "magic" is truly lost; music is not analogous in that respect, however.

P.S. By 'melody' I guess it is better to think, or describe it, in terms of sequence of scale degrees or of intervals; the pitches themselves depend on the key (and capo).

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 4 2018 18:45:05
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13515
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: **Learning CANTE together** (in reply to kitarist

quote:

Thank you very much. I don't know why it was not obvious to me that Norman's As Bs Cs... were referring to lines of MELODY, not to lines of words, and that the repetitions are repetitions of the melody (well, to confuse things, a lot of times they are also repetitions of the words). Now it is clear, after reading your explanation, that this is what he means - as I start rereading his exposition and see the same "B" or "C" can have different words within the same style. Somehow he never says this explicitly.


No, you were right the first time, he refers only to lyrical text arrangement. That’s why I said “not to confuse the issue....” of what I meant about A B and C MUSICALLY. To further confuse he often says things like “in the third sung line”....which refers to a specific performance that might have repeated such as “AABC”....so he was referring to the cambio that so happened to be the B line of verse.

IN the solea inicios he has ABCD verses...referring to lyrics. I pointed out years ago that this might confuse the MUSICAL structure which might better be described as A1A2BC..in those cases of 4 line verses. The reason is the cambio can always be thought of as “B” musically....both melodically and the accompanying chords, and C the resolution. But if you start only talking about LYRICS then your solea de Serneta 1 that camaron sings “cada vez que nos miramos”, for example, would lay out as AABCDAB....that’s the lyrics. Musically to ME it’s A1A1A2BC,BC....because he repeats the words used in lines A and B at the END, but melodically he sings the same melody as happened at BC....which I think can confuse the issue for guitarists. We need to understand the MUSICAL structure, and not get fooled by repeating or not repeating lyrics.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 4 2018 19:39:58
 
kitarist

Posts: 1551
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: **Learning CANTE together** (in reply to Ricardo

Dang it.. fooled again..

But if Norman meant just the lyrics, how is this (from the Frijones 1 examples here) an A-A- BC-BC lyrics structure?

Pastora (1914). With Luis Molina. Capo at fifth fret por medio (D).
A (Mar)chemos para Pamplona
A marchemos para Pamplona
B y en la mitad del camino
C me acordé de tu persona
B que marchemos los dos solitos
C marchemos para Pamplona

The two Bs and the two Cs are different lyrics; and the second C is in fact an A - so I thought - ahha, this is evidence Norman was labelling melodic lines instead.

In any case, it would be useful to have the melodic lines classification side by side with the lines of lyrics, just like on your Camaron example. But maybe we tag with lower case letters (a, b, c) so as not to suggest parity of importance with the lyrics

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 4 2018 20:26:32
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13515
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: **Learning CANTE together** (in reply to kitarist

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitarist

Dang it.. fooled again..

But if Norman meant just the lyrics, how is this (from the Frijones 1 examples here) an A-A- BC-BC lyrics structure?

Pastora (1914). With Luis Molina. Capo at fifth fret por medio (D).
A (Mar)chemos para Pamplona
A marchemos para Pamplona
B y en la mitad del camino
C me acordé de tu persona
B que marchemos los dos solitos
C marchemos para Pamplona

The two Bs and the two Cs are different lyrics; and the second C is in fact an A - so I thought - ahha, this is evidence Norman was labelling melodic lines instead.

In any case, it would be useful to have the melodic lines classification side by side with the lines of lyrics, just like on your Camaron example. But maybe we tag with lower case letters (a, b, c) so as not to suggest parity of importance with the lyrics


From Norman’s site...he first explains the patterns represent 80% of styles...and about the one you focused he says this, focus on the part about using 4 line verse, as is the case in your example (BBCDAB actually):

Pattern 2: A-A-BC-BC (transitional)

“With three-line verse, the first line is repeated (not linked) with the same simple phrase (one line of verse and one melody). This is the pattern that appears most often among the different styles. Among the I7-IVm cantes, a number of melodic patterns are common to several styles (see the description of each style for more information). If we use four-line verse for this pattern, the result is the analogous pattern B-B-CD-AB. Notice that in the middle of pattern 2 the lines are arranged ABC.”

Why can’t flamenco be as simple as ABC, easy as 1,2,3??

For further reading, you can follow norman’s Comments in this thread from 8 years ago, where he was developing the website. Your example above is addressed on page 2 with examples he spells it out for me...and you see my thoughts haven’t changed much
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=153749&mpage=1&p=&tmode=1&smode=1&key=abcd

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 5 2018 3:12:26
 
kitarist

Posts: 1551
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: **Learning CANTE together** (in reply to Ricardo

Thank you, I will read that thread. Also Norman's explanations again.

I don't want flamenco to be simple, but feel like some things can be explained a bit more clearly... notice how in the paragraph you quoted he says "melodic patterns" and then refers to "patterns" as the lettered sequences, yet it is not about melodic but lyrics patterns at that point. Or is it? It seems the sentence about melodic patterns has no connection to the previous and next sentence in the same paragraph (meaning for example, the next sentence does not elaborate on the idea, just goes back to lyrics pattern. I think). But very cool stuff, all of it. Wish I could absorb it faster.

Does anyone else want to be 'idiot-for-a day' on the foro now, or shall I keep going?

P.S. Ricardo from the thread he linked:
"I want to point at, as mezzo's example has made clear to me, the formulas you have seem apply only to the lyrics, and not the melody or music necessarily. What I mean is with that ABABCDAB as an example, the first and second AB's are the same melody, same lyric, where as the last AB is same lyric yet the same MELODY as CD. "

This was a crucial bit for me too and the main lesson for the day.

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 5 2018 6:19:20
 
JasonM

Posts: 1853
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: **Learning CANTE together** (in reply to Ricardo

Thanks for feeding us little birds Ricardo. We all should throw a couple bucks in the Conde fund for all the info you add here. There’s a lot of it to digest.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 5 2018 13:47:09
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13515
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: **Learning CANTE together** (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

If a singer delivers the first line like Joaquin 1...then repeats like Serneta 1 would, then what do you call it??? Also the “ay ay” is supposed to be in the cambio of serneta but not Joaquin, but what if it’s not done?


I just wanted to continue here and give some concrete examples off the top of my head of what I mean here. So if you go to norman’s Site
http://canteytoque.es/soleares.htm#serneta1

It’s Serneta 1 and examples...look at pastora’s version, notice the lyric arrangement she does AABCD, and listen to the melody and how she delivers.

First letra here, I added guitar backing to Moneo, but you can see same lyric and similar delivery and structure (AABCD...no repeat of cambio). Main difference is the way he interprets the compas of the melody relative to beat he is given.



Next look at this famous version. Again first letra, however the lyric structure this time is more in line with Joaquin 1 (ABBBCD). To make it worse the melody is also more like Joaquin the first time....more like Serneta on the repeat of BB, but not really even, and then she doesn’t really do the Ay Ay ay vocalization that is associated with Serneta......So what on earth is this? A bad or confused version of Serneta 1? Does she think she is just doing the lyrics of a famous Serneta letra to a Joaquin Alcala standard and it’s innovative and deliberate? Or is in her head there is no real difference here, HER version is just an example of how the SAME letra and style can be interpreted uniquely, and there is no difference between Joaquin 1 or Serneta I reallly, these are just fake labels aficionados have made distinguish different deliveries of the exact same cante???



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 5 2018 16:51:40
 
kitarist

Posts: 1551
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: **Learning CANTE together** (in reply to Ricardo

It would make sense if the cantaores feel free to re-arrange or repeat/omit lines starting from the basic text of what is essentially a poem, as a means to add a personal touch. This is not uncommon in folk singing in general.

Then the usual chaotic social process happens - some deliveries are liked a lot and become a staple of a singer, so they become stable interpretations; others are just fleeting ones (just because they felt the energy in the room in a particular way so that's how it came out that day - some line got repeated as it had a great effect). But if a fleeting one happens to be recorded, later on it can get misinterpreted as a stable, established way of singing just because it is the one that got recorded that day.

Out of a fluid and ever-changing delivery, random moments get fossilized for posterity. Seems very plausible.

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 5 2018 17:34:28
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: **Learning CANTE together** (in reply to Leñador

Wow this thread just got way better!
I always did have trouble perfectly understanding Normans ABCD business so this has cleared up a lot. I think it does make more sense the they way you're doing it Ricardo A1A2 etc...

This was also something I feared, it turning into a "Ask Ricardo about cante" thread. While this info is gold I hate to exhaust your generosity. I think with all the info you just supplied we should be able to spit out some of our own analysis on individual letras.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 5 2018 20:40:58
 
JasonM

Posts: 1853
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: **Learning CANTE together** (in reply to Leñador

What part of Norman’s site does he talk about the parts of a letra? I’m looking under Solea or Buleria and I see regional styles and lines of letra s but that’s about it.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 5 2018 22:56:44
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: **Learning CANTE together** (in reply to Leñador

Look down where it says “Verse and Structure.”
http://canteytoque.es/soleares.htm

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 5 2018 23:23:36
 
edguerin

Posts: 1575
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: **Learning CANTE together** (in reply to Leñador

Great thread! But shouldn't it be entitled "Learning CANTE-accompaniment together?"

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Ed

El aficionado solitario
Alemania
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 6 2018 7:11:16
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13515
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: **Learning CANTE together** (in reply to edguerin

quote:

ORIGINAL: edguerin

Great thread! But shouldn't it be entitled "Learning CANTE-accompaniment together?"


If all it was was about how to play 3 or 4 chords sure....but knowing how to distinquish between letras with similar structure is where things went, so the title is fine IMO.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 6 2018 14:31:26
 
JasonM

Posts: 1853
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: **Learning CANTE together** (in reply to Leñador

Thanks Len! I noticed as I was reading one of the first solea verses on the page “pasar fatigas doble” the melody of Duquende singing it por Bulerias popped into my head.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 6 2018 15:09:54
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13515
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: **Learning CANTE together** (in reply to JasonM

quote:

ORIGINAL: JasonM

Thanks Len! I noticed as I was reading one of the first solea verses on the page “pasar fatigas doble” the melody of Duquende singing it por Bulerias popped into my head.


Yes, it’s not an obvious relationship at first because of the different tempos. The duquende letra at 6:38 is basically Joaquin 2 (Juan Talega version where he climbs up to the 6th on the cambio) ABC,BC...also notice how the percussion does the remate (C line of verse) for duquende as half compas (first time...so that the entire repeat of BC is crossed against the half compas). That’s the type of thing I was trying to get Lenny to do earlier. Also the contratiempo delivery of the syllables (C line of verse especially) is one major difference compared to when you slow down and do this at solea tempo.



Anyway this type of thing is so common it’s why I was saying the Solea and Buleria por solea covers most of what Buleria has to offer in terms of categorizing letras for only BULERIAS.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 6 2018 17:38:47
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: **Learning CANTE together** (in reply to Leñador

quote:

Anyway this type of thing is so common it’s why I was saying the Solea and Buleria por solea covers most of what Buleria has to offer in terms of categorizing letras for only BULERIAS.


This is really interesting and beginning to connect some dots in my head.........

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 6 2018 22:05:35
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