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RE: Can you correct a too soft pulsa... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)
I’m with Stephen here, but I see there’s a general consensus about it even though with different takes and strokes. I’d say it’s definitely a terminology issue..
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Can you correct a too soft pulsa... (in reply to Echi)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Echi
Not only in Spain really. I don't understand why in USA the concept (which in many places is considered as something obvious) is so controversial. When you order a flamenco guitar to a maker in Spain they'll ask you if you have any preference in terms of "pulsacion" of the guitar ... anyway. Obviously you can survive also without questioning what is this and that's ok.
It is not controversial. It is “action” in USA, as demonstrated by Amalia Ramirez. Always was, in Spain apparently. She measures the “pulsation” at the 12 fret in millimeters, and adjusts the bone saddle to change the pulsation, sticking to “standard pulsation” in general. The controversy came from Anders, a Scandinavian living in Spain, who said explicitly that pulsation is NOT ACTION, and so many agreed with him, and guys like me left scratching our heads WTF? For a long time. I tried hard long ago to believe him, or understand him at least, and not being a builder assumed it was a “thing”.
Over time I realized that people sometimes believe in a universal setup, so the concept of “low bridge” is the same as “low action”, and this is not the case. So now, we have the story above how the bracing was changed when the back came off (I thought the back locks in the neck angle when it gets glued?), several times, and the words “soft and hard” as in the way we use the word “action” after all, came back into play confusing the issue. So we have to believe that the action was not affected by the back coming off and back on, and that only the bracing made a guitar hard to play? Like estebanana its time for a fork in my head.
RE: Can you correct a too soft pulsa... (in reply to Echi)
Ricardo,
When you take the back off you are unlocking the neck set, pitch of the neck forward in our case. And when you put the back on after you jigger the braces, you have to get it exactly correct or the action will not be the same. Then you have to fix it … so there is no way that is practical.
Two Forks in my head! I’m with Amalia, and if she heard this she’d tenador to her cabeza too.
RE: Can you correct a too soft pulsa... (in reply to Echi)
I’d also like to gently point out that classical makers who don’t build flamenco guitars do not have to worry if the guitar will have the beautiful haptic qualities of a good flamenco guitar. And pardon me for saying this, but the modern or contemporary builders who try to engineer in the sound by tapping, free plate tuning, tone generation testing etc. are only going to get parts of it correct, but if they don’t build with experience informed intuition on how to make guitar work when played alzapua and flamenco rageo they aren’t doing it right.
Sorry just a peeve of mine from listening to non flamenco builders who think it’s all engineering.
Three Forks in my head, soon I’ll have a Michelin star ⭐️
RE: Can you correct a too soft pulsa... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
Sorry just a peeve of mine from listening to non flamenco builders who think it’s all engineering.
I hope you’re not referring to me. I certainly don’t think it’s all engineering, even though that was my life’s main career path. The lion’s share of my guitar making output and lutherie interest has always been flamenco guitars. You can ask my first teacher. You can ask my second. You can ask anybody. I studied about all types of guitar making with the first, then went to Spain and focussed on studying flamenco guitar making there. So, years of study, countless hours spent at the benches of masters over two continents and guitars made and placed in the hands of gitano players in Spain before I ever even dared to join this place.
There are makers on here that I hold in the highest regard, you and Andy being amongst them. Some have dedicated their lives to the craft. I get that. I’ve learned so much here and I truly do feel humbled. It’s just maybe lighten up a bit and give us little people some room to breathe. We’re all just trying to get by and get along. And if the craft gets furthered along the way then it’s a big bonus.
P.S. I do intend to post some stuff about electrics and other non-flamenco related instruments in the upcoming year. But I’m going to do it on here. It’s where I’ve always posted my crap. It’s the only forum I’ve ever been a member of. Probably the only one that’d have me….
P.P.S. I’ve always considered myself to be an intuitive maker. But intuition is formed by experience and knowledge and can change when presented with new information. You can’t always trust intuition. Engineering showed me that in a concrete way and guitar making has continued to prove it true.
RE: Can you correct a too soft pulsa... (in reply to RobF)
quote:
And if the craft gets furthered along the way then it’s a big bonus.
I hope it is getting furthered, I just find it funny when people will argue one thing with all kinds of 5head language and then completely contradict everything they said later. I admire Ricardo for at least keeping his story straight all these years :). But learning and changing your opinion is OK too.
RE: Can you correct a too soft pulsa... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)
To me, top stiffness/ string stiffness feel was completely obvious when I sanded the braces on my guitar because I thought it was too stiff and it definitely took the tension down. The sound also changed for the worse slightly - but the guitar feels good (to me). The bass stings are now darker and deeper, trebles less bright, less balanced. I regret doing it but it was a learning experience
RE: Can you correct a too soft pulsa... (in reply to Echi)
If you're not obsessed with terminology :) ... And you are brave these kind of things like "pulsation" are likely fixable. Just need to pop the back off and rework it from the inside. Probably not a good idea with a really expensive guitar, but if it's a guitar you plan to keep and it doesn't play well, why not? A poor playing guitar is basically trash otherwise.
I suppose if you have to do it twice you'll burn in Hades, but it's a valuable lesson. A lesson you won't learn by talking, or arguing on a forum since obviously it's a sin. These internet forums are loaded with people who are always telling you why things are impossible, and the shame is a lot of people who have valuable opinions leave because of it.
There are a few lurkers out here that make a hobby of turning bad guitars into good guitars. It's doable, don't let them tell you it can't be done. Not everybody who works on guitars builds them from scratch, there's a lot of fun in the challenge of taking some old beater guitar and seeing if you can't make it into a good guitar. I have a couple really nice guitars that were complete garbage which look and play nicely now because I wasn't afraid to take them apart and work on them.
quote:
To me, top stiffness/ string stiffness feel was completely obvious when I sanded the braces on my guitar because I thought it was too stiff and it definitely took the tension down. The sound also changed for the worse slightly - but the guitar feels good (to me). The bass stings are now darker and deeper, trebles less bright, less balanced. I regret doing it but it was a learning experience
RE: Can you correct a too soft pulsa... (in reply to JasonM)
quote:
I regret doing it but it was a learning experience
It’s funny. I was really disappointed with one of my earlier guitars, a negra. I showed it to my first teacher who, not being one to pull any punches when it comes to me, pronounced it to sound like a piece of crap, and I had to agree. So, I took it home and worked on the braces through the soundhole and the guitar was transformed. It was pretty dramatic, actually. I brought the guitar back to my first teacher and he was astounded and said it was now a really good guitar.
That guitar ended up being owned by a gitano flamenco player in Granada. He still has it and he still loves it. I’ve seen it pop up in numerous videos and pictures on the internet over the years in the hands of some pretty famous players, but it’s still in the possession of the original owner.
Thing is, with what I know now, I might never have messed with that guitar. I have a sneaking suspicion it ultimately would have been a better flamenco guitar if I had left it alone. But it does have a certain velvety quality to the notes that’s pretty beguiling, so who knows?
RE: Can you correct a too soft pulsa... (in reply to n85ae)
quote:
There are a few lurkers out here that make a hobby of turning bad guitars into good guitars. It's doable, don't let them tell you it can't be done. Not everybody who works on guitars builds them from scratch, there's a lot of fun in the challenge of taking some old beater guitar and seeing if you can't make it into a good guitar. I have a couple really nice guitars that were complete garbage which look and play nicely now because I wasn't afraid to take them apart and work on them.
Honestly, messing around with and altering the work of other makers is not something you should take lightly. There’s an ethical element at play here, and you can do real damage to a professional’s reputation by altering their work and not making it obvious with a label or something. Playing around with beaters and cheap factory instruments is OK as a learning experience, I suppose. But be careful with that stuff.
I have a really nice looking violin that was made by a German geigenbaumeister about seventy years ago. About two years after it was made some wag decided to “tonally adjust” it and put a label in it proudly proclaiming the fact. Apart from the complete disrespect shown to the original maker by doing this, the violin now doesn’t sound very good. I have no idea how it would be today if it had been left as the maker intended. It’s sad, really.
RE: Can you correct a too soft pulsa... (in reply to Echi)
If I own the guitar it's entirely at my discretion what I do with it, but I understand your point. However that's not really an issue, since I'm not going to own a guitar built by somebody who has a reputation to be concerned about unless it was a great guitar to begin with.
quote:
Honestly, messing around with and altering the work of other makers is not something you should take lightly. There’s an ethical element at play here, and you can do real damage to a professional’s reputation by altering their work and not making it obvious with a label or something. Playing around with beaters and cheap factory instruments is OK as a learning experience, I suppose. But be careful with that stuff.
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Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Can you correct a too soft pulsa... (in reply to RobF)
quote:
Which brings us to the age old question…
What does one do when one comes to a fork in Stephen’s head?
Yogi Berra would have the answer.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Posts: 3467
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Can you correct a too soft pulsa... (in reply to RobF)
quote:
P.S. I do intend to post some stuff about electrics and other non-flamenco related instruments in the upcoming year. But I’m going to do it on here. It’s where I’ve always posted my crap. It’s the only forum I’ve ever been a member of. Probably the only one that’d have me….
Hey Rob, your observation cited above reminds me of the American comic Groucho Marx who once said: "I'd never join a club that would have me as a member."
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Can you correct a too soft pulsa... (in reply to RobF)
quote:
P.S. I do intend to post some stuff about electrics and other non-flamenco related instruments in the upcoming year.
Looking forward to that. I just received an Ibanez shred guitar and getting back into it after literally 2 decades. I would have thought new tech had changed things (distortion/gain staging and such) and shocked that after all this time it is the same deal as when I was 15! . But Gilbert had mentioned at some point, trying to pin down what the heck was up with certain solid body guitars sounding better than others, and to him he learned it was the neck weight, not pick ups and gear.
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Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: Can you correct a too soft pulsa... (in reply to Ricardo)
Maybe the confusion partly arises from the definition of the word “pulsación” itself. The Diccionario of the Real Academia Española gives various definitions. The only applicable one is
pulsación: 1. f. Acción de pulsar.
“Pulsar” also has several definitions, but the applicable one is: 2. tr. Tocar, palpar, percibir algo con la mano o con la yema de los dedos.
“To touch, to perceive something via the hand or the fingertips”
But the “action” of a guitar is a measurement, not a perception.
I have never asked a native Spanish guitarrero what “pulsacion” means. Amalia implies it means the height of the strings at the 12th fret. I have discussed, or asked for a specific string height while conversing in Spanish with skilled luthiers, but I don’t remember the word “pulsación” ever coming up.
The guitar sellers at Solera Flamenca regularly distinguish “action” from”pulsación” with the stock phrase “ La pulsación de esta guitarra flamenca es media y la altura de cuerdas en diapasón y selleta muy equilibrada, lo que aporta al guitarrista una gran comodidad en ambas manos.” The pulsacion is described as “media” on instrument with actions ranging from 2.2 to 3.0 millimeters.
Sometimes the pulsación is described differently, while the action is given as the same in the CARACTERÍSTICAS TÉCNICAS. “ Esta guitarra tiene la tan apreciada pulsación “de rebote” en la mano derecha combinada con una suavidad espectacular en la mano izquierda, consiguiendo el “instrumento perfecto” para pasar horas y horas tocando sin cansarse y con una agradable sensación de facilidad.”
Many in this thread agree that there is more to the feel of the strings by the right hand than the setup of the guitar. So do I. At least a couple of well known American luthiers have used the word “pull” to denote the right hand perception.
RE: Can you correct a too soft pulsa... (in reply to RobF)
quote:
Thing is, with what I know now, I might never have messed with that guitar. I have a sneaking suspicion it ultimately would have been a better flamenco guitar if I had left it alone. But it does have a certain velvety quality to the notes that’s pretty beguiling, so who knows?
I did the same thing with my guitar #1, and kind of ruined it in my opinion. I can't remember why, I thought it was too "tight" sounding maybe and I had made the top too thick, and maybe the trebles weren't strong enough. So I shaved the braces down quite a bit and now it's kind of just "blah" sounding. It lost some of the sharp attack that it used to have, sadly.
RE: Can you correct a too soft pulsa... (in reply to Echi)
Here's a modern luthier that mentions he builds to a players preference for pulsacion in his guitars when he builds them ... Must be something to it :)
this time it is the same deal as when I was 15! . But Gilbert had mentioned at some point, trying to pin down what the heck was up with certain solid body guitars sounding better than others, and to him he learned it was the neck weight, not pick ups and gear.
He also has a couple more on strings and tube amps.
RE: Can you correct a too soft pulsa... (in reply to devilhand)
When a search engine crawls your website text, you try to include as many terms as possible to make it competitive. That’s why mine states all the guitar makers’ names and has some guitar making jargon. If someone says the P-word in passing like Amalia Ramirez I don’t dwell on it, but when anonymous annoying twits use the P-word ad nauseam the forks come out.
I posted a nice interesting Laute de Malta and you boneheads with no career credibility want to rehash the most boring, played out term that doesn’t matter…. And you post nothing of interest then swipe at me with your nonsense. Post something new and constructive.
this time it is the same deal as when I was 15! . But Gilbert had mentioned at some point, trying to pin down what the heck was up with certain solid body guitars sounding better than others, and to him he learned it was the neck weight, not pick ups and gear.
He also has a couple more on strings and tube amps.
. That is great. And it basically explains why all my guitars were indistinguishable to my own ears. I was hearing only the stings, and I used mostly the same brand of strings (La Bella 820), and Luthier 20 on two guitars. So probably luthier and Labella are simply very similar strings. For example I think the Max Bishop Lawson cypress with Luthier 20 sounded exactly like the Conde Indian Negra with Labella 820.
There is another factor, the audio recording tech is filtering everything to sound pretty similar. In the case of the electrics there the biggest difference was the pick up position, equivalent on acoustic guitars to mic placement, with the huge difference that the mic is getting tone from the soundhole top frequency (pitch of the top wood). But I love how the wood is all looks almost zero sound function
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Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Can you correct a too soft pulsa... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
I posted a nice interesting Laute de Malta and you boneheads with no career credibility want to rehash the most boring, played out term that doesn’t matter….
I hear ya amigo. Comments in this thread ranging from speculative definitions of "pulsacion" to a detailed etymology of the term from the Real Academia Espanola would lead one to believe it is a sexual fetish term that gets its adherents off by pronouncing it.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: Can you correct a too soft pulsa... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
I posted a nice interesting Laute de Malta and you boneheads with no career credibility want to rehash the most boring, played out term that doesn’t matter…. And you post nothing of interest then swipe at me with your nonsense. Post something new and constructive.
I don’t know… You’ve pretty well just insulted everybody but yourself who’s participated in this thread and, to tell the truth, you don’t always seem to react very well when other makers post on your threads, so it’s no wonder they avoid doing it.
I mean, c’mon..it’s not all about adulation and glory and there’s a lot of good makers on here. Not just you and whomever you feel warrants your respect. As I said earlier, people just want to get by and get along.
Sometimes I think half the makers who post here only do so for self-promotion. That’s fine, but this isn’t some kind of competitive blood sport. There’s lots of others who post here simply because they are devoted to the craft and actually sincerely and truly simply want to participate in furthering its development by sharing information and through discussion. Damn it, you are highly respected and well liked here. What more do you want? You don’t have to belittle and dump on people just because a subject bores you.
RE: Can you correct a too soft pulsa... (in reply to RobF)
Insulted? How about just making a counter argument to something that is brought up over and over? I prefaced my criticisms with enough ‘this is my opinion’ -
This is an exasperating subject and maybe you guys need a safe space? 😂
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