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JasonM

Posts: 1695
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

Scrap and start over? 

Death by router. I hear it's an all too common fatality for poor headstocks. My routing slot template shifted on me, and it's my fault for not securing it. The plan called for 1/2 slots. I could widen them to 5/8 (outlined on the slot to the right in the pic) BUT the headstock width is already a bit narrow. And there are a couple of other mistakes that I'm strongly considering ordering a new blank and starting over. Maybe that would give me a chance to do it better, maybe not.



These tuner holes are skewed slightly. Also The center line from the nut to the end of the crown is skewed by 1/8th.
Those things aren't the end of the world I realize but they are compounding.










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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 3 2017 15:18:29
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12994
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Scrap and start over? (in reply to JasonM

Doh!!!! Try to save it but get a new blank anyway.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 3 2017 15:39:16
 
JasonM

Posts: 1695
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Scrap and start over? (in reply to Ricardo

It will be a week before I get the wood in the mail so mind as well. but I'm tempted to find out what burning cedar and rosewood smells like ;) A burnt offering will give me guidance to build a conde instead
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 3 2017 15:57:38
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: Scrap and start over? (in reply to JasonM

What's the big deal? 1/2" slots are too narrow, 5/8" is much better. You can also buy shorter screws for the tuners if you want to make the outside edge of the slots more narrow. The outside edge of the slot will work fine at 1/4" wide or even a touch less. You'll never see the crooked head after the guitar is finished or the alignment problem with the tuner holes. Proceed with your building and hope you don't make any disastrous mistakes (this one is minor).

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 3 2017 18:16:22
 
benros

 

Posts: 144
Joined: Aug. 27 2016
 

RE: Scrap and start over? (in reply to JasonM

my suggestion: kill your router (and all the other powertools you have) and start to use handtools only! ;)
will save you a lot if time and trouble, and is much more fullfilling, even if you fck it up.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 3 2017 19:58:57
 
RobF

Posts: 1116
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Scrap and start over? (in reply to JasonM

Hi Jason, you have a lot of wiggle room here. The plan calls for 1/2” slots, but then it also has fairly large bevels that move the outer edges of the slots to be 3/4” wide. If you increase the slot to 5/8” and keep the bevel edge to 3/4” you’ll have made a pretty good recovery. But, I’d just be careful to avoid having the bevel make the center portion of the head look too narrow.

For me, I prefer 5/8” slots at any rate, and I would be inclined to ignore this part of the plan and bevel around the slots just enough so that it looks right.

Best of luck, Rob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 3 2017 20:51:45
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2253
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: Scrap and start over? (in reply to JasonM

I see you went into the head-stock lining. The way to avoid this is to put a small piece of veneer in your jig to drop the cutting line away from the purfling. It will give you plenty of room to avoid cutting into the lining, next time.

If everything else fails, then try out one of LMI's new necks from Manuel Adalid in Spain.

Most of it is pre-cut and will allow you to carve /finish the heel and cut your own head design at the top. Most of this design is from Manuel's work with me. LMI liked it so much, they bought quite a few necks from Manuel.

The peg holes can be corrected by enlarging them but the machine holes should be replaced with another neck assembly, IMHO.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 3 2017 23:00:47
 
RobF

Posts: 1116
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Scrap and start over? (in reply to JasonM

Jason, it’s probably just bad luck but it’s possible there is a process issue with how the tuner holes are being drilled, so if you do start a new neck it might be a good idea to run the setup by the Foro before the bit hits the wood.

Even if you do save this neck, why not order another neck blank anyways? Spanish Cedar smells so good it’s nice to have around if only for that reason, lol.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 3 2017 23:32:32
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: Scrap and start over? (in reply to JasonM

quote:

ORIGINAL: JasonM

A burnt offering will give me guidance to build a conde instead

A few years ago a professional player brought in his very well known Spanish guitar needing tuners. The tuners were so far out of alignment that the lyre was a good 1/16" proud of the face of the head. The guitar played fine but I would consider that excessive, much worse than yours.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 4 2017 14:38:31
 
JasonM

Posts: 1695
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Scrap and start over? (in reply to jshelton5040

I can believe it. At least I could get hired to build necks at the Valencia factory. The plate is about 1/32 proud at one end on mine. The other side of the headstock is where it should be. For that side I used a thin strip of Veneer to shim the jig like Tom mentioned. So I got my process dialed in by the third attempt, and figured I might try and plug it again at a later point.

I'm going to give it another go today before I place an order for a new blank. cedar smells amazing, like a new guitar. Even without the extra bevel on the slots I wasn't sure how funny it would look because the headstock is already kind of narrow. I had to build out the sides with shims before I glued the headplate.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 4 2017 15:25:08
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1488
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Scrap and start over? (in reply to JasonM

I agree with John, half inch slots are too narrow anyway. I suggest fixing it if you can and don't go for perfect appearance but for good function. A first guitar is supposed to have cosmetic mistakes. There will probably be more along the way and they can all live happily in the one guitar--which may surprise you in being lots of fun to play. When I play a guitar that is fun to play, I never think about the cosmetic imperfections. But I think it would be a real pain to change strings on a guitar with half-inch slots.

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I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 7 2017 17:59:50
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2253
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: Scrap and start over? (in reply to constructordeguitarras

quote:


I agree with John, half inch slots are too narrow anyway.


You would be surprised how easy 1/2" slots are to use

But this issue will have to be addressed by its maker.

Some people like to keep practicing their skills until they get it right. But sometimes there needs to be a better tool to make the job easier

I like your simple tool for that.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 7 2017 18:48:22
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1488
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Scrap and start over? (in reply to Tom Blackshear

Thanks, Tom.

Can you explain what you meant by "the headstock lining"?

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www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 7 2017 19:10:10
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2253
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: Scrap and start over? (in reply to constructordeguitarras

quote:

ORIGINAL: constructordeguitarras

Thanks, Tom.

Can you explain what you meant by "the headstock lining"?


The head stock lining is where he cut into the purfling laminate near the roller holes going into the side of the head stock.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 7 2017 19:20:59
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Scrap and start over? (in reply to JasonM

Bouchet used 1/2" slots.....but you can make them wider.

Look at it this way, now you'll get in some practice sharpening chisels.

Make a sandpaper stick with 80 grit , get in there and smooth it down and call it day.


quote:

A few years ago a professional player brought in his very well known Spanish guitar needing tuners. The tuners were so far out of alignment that the lyre was a good 1/16" proud of the face of the head. The guitar played fine but I would consider that excessive, much worse than yours.


This probably indicates the head was designed for non lyre tuners. Or Lyre-less.


quote:

Stupid ficking router


Anon.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 7 2017 22:07:17
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: Scrap and start over? (in reply to estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Bouchet used 1/2" slots.....but you can make them wider.


Bouchet? Never heard of him! He must have been an amateur.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 7 2017 22:43:23
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Scrap and start over? (in reply to JasonM

Bouchet played flamenco, made classicals - same old story.

Reyes made his slots half inch wide too, up until late 1970s.

Half inch wide slots quite common on older Spanish work. Pre 70s. Nothing wrong with it.


I would hasten to add that Flamenco guitar today looks like a rode hard whore with too much make up and fake tits. Everything nuanced and poetic has been bred out of the Spanish model by moderns trying to make the model updated, tough and industrial strength. They screwed it up, even the Spaniards. The modern guitar is a gutter snipe, and the American stamp on it was the final plunge of the sword.

The guitar is ruined really, it never was meant to be modernized, it's a travesty.


Bah, patoooey, I spit in the whole idea of anything modern in relation to the Spanish model. It ended with late Reyes....if not before.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 7 2017 23:19:52
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: Scrap and start over? (in reply to estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Bouchet played flamenco, made classicals - same old story.

Reyes made his slots half inch wide too, up until late 1970s.

Half inch wide slots quite common on older Spanish work. Pre 70s. Nothing wrong with it.

I'm well aware of who Bouchet was, I've even played a couple. I was making a joke.

My fingers are much too thick to fit comfortably into 1/2" slots. I've always preferred 5/8" for function.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 7 2017 23:25:23
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Scrap and start over? (in reply to JasonM

The slots are not a pussy, you're not supposed to put your fingers in there. Chisels and narrow scrapers do just fine.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 7 2017 23:31:35
 
JasonM

Posts: 1695
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Scrap and start over? (in reply to estebanana

So I made Ethan's fancy slotting jig, more or less, and routed out 5/8 slots. The jig worked great but I was Really nervous using a template bit and basically routing by feel. I went through 2 jigs because the router skipped a bit here and there causing tear out in places and some divots. Next time I will chisel out almost ALL the wood before routing. All my chisels are tuned up on the fancy DMT stones and more fun to use anyway.

I sort of agree about the 1/2 inch slots. Seems to me Reyes wanted extra room to bevel and create a more elegant carved look instead of a flat chest'd headstock?

Next problem: how to get the bevels nice and even by hand. I'm trying to cover up these small spots with tear out without sanding away the entire headstock. The side with the tuners needs to be trimmed, but already measures 1mm closer than the other.
*No, those tuners are not on backwards ;)

Yes Ethan, there will be more mistakes for sure. Every task involves some trial and error at the expense of cosmetics.




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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 8 2017 2:45:35
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1488
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Scrap and start over? (in reply to JasonM

Hey, Jason, it's looking pretty nice!

Sorry you're having trouble with the router. Those divots would be hard to make the way I do it: The router is kept flat on top of the jig and the template guide keeps the bit from going beyond where it's supposed to go. Maybe you were using a flush-trimming bit, but still, if you keep the router flat on the template, then it is also upright and unable to cut where it's not supposed to.

When you round over the edges it will look fine. People won't really see inside the slots; there'll be rollers and strings in there....

(I hate to be the one to tell you this, but your tuners are upside down; the lyre goes at the top. )

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Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 8 2017 2:53:29
 
JasonM

Posts: 1695
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Scrap and start over? (in reply to constructordeguitarras

Thanks Ethan. I'm pretty sure it was the same setup as yours. I made a template out of 1/2inch Baltic birch ply on the router table using a pattern template I made. Fastened some blocks underneath to allow clamping in a bench vise and align the slot. I used a Bosch trim router with a 1/2 inch top bearing bit. I would have preferred a smaller bit. It's possible that during start up I rocked the router to keep it stable. Maybe I went the wrong direction with too much material in the way... I don't know why I got chatter. Now that I think of it, it's probably the way I handle the router because I don't have this problem using a router table versus free hand.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 8 2017 3:08:16
 
JasonM

Posts: 1695
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Scrap and start over? (in reply to JasonM

I feel like the bottom rollers need more clearance - I should remove extend the slots closer to the nut?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 8 2017 3:17:48
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1488
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Scrap and start over? (in reply to JasonM

quote:

I feel like the bottom rollers need more clearance - I should remove extend the slots closer to the nut?


I usually put the center roller in the center of the slot. Regarding distance from slot to nut, I base this on the length of the "hyloid curve"--the curve that goes from the nut area to the flat side of the head. I don't like the side wall to become too thin there. If you draw the curves on then you can judge.

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Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 8 2017 3:47:51
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Scrap and start over? (in reply to JasonM

I knew a guy named Lloyd who did often get high. We all called him ' High Lloyd'. He was a leak always rolling something.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 8 2017 11:12:46
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: Scrap and start over? (in reply to estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

The slots are not a pussy, you're not supposed to put your fingers in there. Chisels and narrow scrapers do just fine.

Stephen,
By "function" I was referring to changing strings. No reason to make this more awkward by using narrow slots.

We did the slots by hand (chisels and sanding sticks) for many years until I finally paid attention to what other very skilled craftsmen were doing (Stephen Eden) and built a routing jig. I'll never go back since this is better in every way. No criticism of the traditional methods intended, I definitely haven't thrown away my chisels or carving knives.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 8 2017 14:40:34
 
JasonM

Posts: 1695
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Scrap and start over? (in reply to constructordeguitarras

Boy I almost forgot about drawing that curve. Thanks Ethan. Another days work saved from the scrap bin!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 8 2017 16:18:52
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1488
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Scrap and start over? (in reply to estebanana

quote:

He was a leak
?

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 8 2017 16:34:33
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1488
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Scrap and start over? (in reply to JasonM

quote:

Now that I think of it, it's probably the way I handle the router because I don't have this problem using a router table versus free hand.


Jason--
I strongly recommend that you develop a deeper relationship with your router, because a router is by far the best way to cut the ledges for binding and purfling. I think nearly everyone would agree on this. I don't know what size router you're using for the headstock, but a small trim router would be easiest to handle on the edges for the binding and purfling ledges. Practice on scrap is recommended (scrap that's big enough to secure in a vise).

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 9 2017 4:11:40
 
JasonM

Posts: 1695
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Scrap and start over? (in reply to constructordeguitarras

Well I did scrap and start over after all. Although I could have widened those slots to clean them up I had made yet another mistake taking too much material where the nut meets the headstock. So A month later I'm back to the same point I was when I stopped. This one is a lot cleaner and my scarf joint looks better than one on my Sanchis ;) My first time I suffered from performance anxiety, this time I know what to expect.

For the slots I made a jig similar to Ethan's. This time I used this big plunge router with a template bushing. I designed the dimensions of the template in autocad. This worked really well. There was no need to remove waste material or do a cleaning pass. Super stable and powerful. My only regrets are that I went back and made the slots a little longer causing them to become uneven in width by a bit which I tried to correct by hand as best I could.

I think the Reyes headstock is kind of strange. It looks cool, but it's so narrow and thin it makes tolerances tighter.





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