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Hi all. I've been reading this forum for awhile now but this is my first post and first question. I'm fairly new to flamenco guitar. I'm just finishing Graf Martinez vol 1 and starting vol 2 where he presents the arpeggio technique stating that the thumb is always played apoyando for arpeggios. For me coming from the folk/country blues fingerstyle where the thumb is never played apoyando this is very difficult so I'm wondering if anyone has any tips for developing this. Also, why is it necessary.
Thanks This is a great forum by the way. I guess you know that.
RE: apoyando thumb during arpeggios (in reply to rayian)
The main reason is probably just aesthetic. For example: it makes a big difference particularly when the thumb is playing the melody and the arpeggiated part is just there as a flourish. Makes sense to give the thumb more volume and a cleaner snappier sound in that case. It also has the advantage of keeping your hand anchored. Compare flamenco tremolo to classical tremolo. The flamenco version seems less "volatile" than the classical version, the hand stays firmly in the same place and having the thumb rest on the strings has a lot to do with that.
You could practice just with the thumb. The hand position is different than if you're doing arpeggios, but it will get you used to playing rest strokes with the thumb. If the arpeggio exercices in the Graf Martinez book are too hard, you could plant ami on the strings you're supposed to be arpeggiating and just play the thumb part, focusing on doing a good apoyando. That should help do the apoyando while making sure you don't move the rest of your hand.
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RE: apoyando thumb during arpeggios (in reply to Piwin)
I am wondering about 'not moving the rest of the hand' part. Actually, I've spent quite some time to practice a bit of wrist rotation to augment the thumb action. Is it wrong? thank you.
RE: apoyando thumb during arpeggios (in reply to rayian)
quote:
I am wondering about 'not moving the rest of the hand' part. Actually, I've spent quite some time to practice a bit of wrist rotation to augment the thumb action. Is it wrong?
Not always, there's a time and place. You DO get a lot more power when you move your wrist but you lose a lot of speed and sometimes you just don't need or want the power. I'm currently working on NOT moving my wrist per my teachers orders.
RE: apoyando thumb during arpeggios (in reply to dartemo1)
What Leñador said. If it's a continuous arpeggio, I have a hard time keeping up the tempo if I move the wrist. If it's not continuous, then I feel like I have more leeway. But that's just me, if you don't feel that using the wrist slows you down any, then by all means (lucky bastard )!
_____________________________
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
RE: apoyando thumb during arpeggios (in reply to rayian)
quote:
the thumb is always played apoyando for arpeggios. For me coming from the folk/country blues fingerstyle where the thumb is never played apoyando this is very difficult so I'm wondering if anyone has any tips for developing this. Also, why is it necessary.
It's necessary to make a good sound, a strong sound, a flamenco sound. Flamenco history relates that playing with the thumb PRECEDED use of fingers in arpeggio/tremolo in the development of flamenco guitar style. Likely the rest stroke was carried over into those later introduced techniques, again with the necessity of making a strong sound.
Bear in mind though that although pretty much all techniques involving thumb employ rest stroke/apoyando (there are a few exceptions), the thumb is used in a different way in Pulgar/Alzapua compared to Arpegio/Tremolo
For "Pulgar" and "Alzapúa" techniques you need to curl the wrist in (flex) so more of the tip of the thumb and thumb nail contacts the string. Then rotate the wrist (ie pronate and supinate the forearm) to lift the thumb up and down in playing.
When the thumb is used in combination with fingers in "Arpegio" and "Trémolo" techniques it is used differently. Now the wrist is not flexed in the same way and the relationship of the hand, forearm and thumb to the strings is different. The thumb contacts the string with the flesh on the side of the thumb, with the thumb close to parallel with the string. This allows the fingers to play on the higher strings. The wrist doesn't rotate as this would interfere with the fingers contacting the strings, so the thumb must move more independently of the hand. The thumb still plays rest stroke on the bass strings, exceptions being made when playing on higher strings close to the fingers.
Watch the right hand of any good player on video to see the change of relationship of hand to strings when playing pulgar/alzapua as opposed to arpeggio/tremolo.
if you want a decent instructional DVD that demonstrates and teaches the techniques get Oscar Herrero Paso a Paso vol 1 and 2.
RE: apoyando thumb during arpeggios (in reply to dartemo1)
quote:
I am wondering about 'not moving the rest of the hand' part. Actually, I've spent quite some time to practice a bit of wrist rotation to augment the thumb action. Is it wrong?
RE: apoyando thumb during arpeggios (in reply to rayian)
Thanks for all the input. I'm starting to get it why it's good to to use rest strokes for the thumb. My hand is just not used to working like that. I'm having to practice arpeggios painfully slow to try to retrain my thumb to play apoyando. Hope that doesn't take too long
quote:
if you want a decent instructional DVD that demonstrates and teaches the techniques get Oscar Herrero Paso a Paso vol 1 and 2.
Yes I already have those. Been using them for technique though I haven't learned any of his falsettas yet
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RE: apoyando thumb during arpeggios (in reply to rayian)
quote:
ORIGINAL: rayian
Hi all. I've been reading this forum for awhile now but this is my first post and first question. I'm fairly new to flamenco guitar. I'm just finishing Graf Martinez vol 1 and starting vol 2 where he presents the arpeggio technique stating that the thumb is always played apoyando for arpeggios. For me coming from the folk/country blues fingerstyle where the thumb is never played apoyando this is very difficult so I'm wondering if anyone has any tips for developing this. Also, why is it necessary.
Thanks This is a great forum by the way. I guess you know that.
Relearning techniques is often harder for advanced players than for beginners because you have to unlearn what used to be natural.
For one thing, thumb will not be resting ALL the time, but generally we might think "as often as possible". Since you already have the concept and are working slowly, maybe this type of tremolo exercise will help speed things up. There is a "falling onto the thumb" feeling with arps and tremolo and this vid is just a demo but should help.
RE: apoyando thumb during arpeggios (in reply to rayian)
quote:
For one thing, thumb will not be resting ALL the time, but generally we might think "as often as possible". Since you already have the concept and are working slowly, maybe this type of tremolo exercise will help speed things up. There is a "falling onto the thumb" feeling with arps and tremolo and this vid is just a demo but should help.
Yeah that's a different way to slow it down. Rather than slow the whole thing down just make a space between the thumb and the finger work. Nice. I'll try that for sure. Thanks
RE: apoyando thumb during arpeggios (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Relearning techniques is often harder for advanced players than for beginners because you have to unlearn what used to be natural.
if the advanced player "pretends" it's a new technique, and puts in the patient slow practise that went in to learning the technique initially I don't think it has to be any harder, or take any longer.
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RE: apoyando thumb during arpeggios (in reply to mark indigo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: mark indigo
quote:
Relearning techniques is often harder for advanced players than for beginners because you have to unlearn what used to be natural.
if the advanced player "pretends" it's a new technique, and puts in the patient slow practise that went in to learning the technique initially I don't think it has to be any harder, or take any longer.
Of course. And if he just "pretends" to be Paco de Lucia everything should also be just fine.
Doing rolling 16th notes with pattern p-a-m-i for example where thumb and index are both on the 3rd string is a good example where you must do tirando pulgar.
RE: apoyando thumb during arpeggios (in reply to rayian)
Thanks Ricardo. What about thumb playing 4th String and I finger 3rd, M 2nd and A 1st (up and down arpegio)? I prefer apoyando but I have seen many guitarist doing tirando in this case which confuses me.
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RE: apoyando thumb during arpeggios (in reply to callemunicion)
quote:
ORIGINAL: callemunicion
Thanks Ricardo. What about thumb playing 4th String and I finger 3rd, M 2nd and A 1st (up and down arpegio)? I prefer apoyando but I have seen many guitarist doing tirando in this case which confuses me.
Depends on the speed because i needs to play right after having played p going up so: P-a-m-i-p-i-m-a-m-i-P.....the first and last P is rested and the middle p is tirando. Make sense?
In practice the above pattern could be counts 1,2 ending on 3 of solea. 4 16th notes on 1, 6 tuplet over beat 2, accent 3. Bass notes could be D-E-F, with trebles G# and open B and E strings.
RE: apoyando thumb during arpeggios (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Doing rolling 16th notes with pattern p-a-m-i for example where thumb and index are both on the 3rd string is a good example where you must do tirando pulgar.
RE: apoyando thumb during arpeggios (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
It means "easier said than done".
But that's not what I'm saying at all. Did you miss the bit about "patient slow practise" or just react to the word "pretends"?
quote:
Relearning techniques is often harder for advanced players than for beginners because you have to unlearn what used to be natural.
quote:
if the advanced player "pretends" it's a new technique, and puts in the patient slow practise that went in to learning the technique initially I don't think it has to be any harder, or take any longer.
If an otherwise advanced player has learned with a wrong technique, say free stroke with the thumb in arpegio, then I am suggesting they don't need to do more than the practise they have already put in to learning it that way - which is probably a lot of practise!
As I understand it practise strengthens the neural pathways for an activity or technique, so a new technique will have a weak neural pathway and need time and effort putting in. Whether the time and effort are well spent, productive and successful will depend a lot on the mental approach.
I think sometimes the more advanced someone is the less time they think they should need to put in to change a technique, so they will then get poor results and end up taking longer than it should.
The other thing that I think gets in the way of changing a technique, such as switching from free stroke to rest stroke with the thumb in arpegio is the concept of having to "unlearn" the old way of doing it. As long as the player has this in mind, that they've got to "unlearn the old way" or "don't do free stroke with the thumb" they will keep on calling up that old program they have spent many hours practising, and then wonder why they keep on playing free stroke with the thumb instead of rest stroke with the thumb, and it seems so hard to change.
Better, IMO, to approach it as a "new" technique, and put in the necessary time and energy, than to go round in circles trying to "unlearn" something.
DISCLAIMER: I don't have a degree in neuro-science, but I have had a lot of in depth conversations with people who subscribe to neuro-science journals and work in performance enhancement and performance psychology areas. All of the above is conjecture and opinion based on conversations with said individuals, and a general reading of material on practise, performance, technique etc. I don't have any test results, bibliographies or grid references to "prove" any of the above. I think they are good ideas worth further investigation.
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Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: apoyando thumb during arpeggios (in reply to orsonw)
quote:
ORIGINAL: orsonw
quote:
Doing rolling 16th notes with pattern p-a-m-i for example where thumb and index are both on the 3rd string is a good example where you must do tirando pulgar.
I play pulgar apoyando and then lift immediately while A plays, then the pulgar is out of the way for M to play the B string. Am I doing it wrong?
At faster tempos this will sound choppy (the C note will not ring out each beat from the previous), but at slow tempo or if you leave a pause on the thumb note duration it can work fine. More often when the rest stroke is desired a different pattern is done where you use ligados with p-i-m.
About unlearning being as easy as a beginner tech..."practice makes permanent".
RE: apoyando thumb during arpeggios (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
About unlearning being as easy as a beginner tech...
I'm not completely sure what you mean here.... a "beginner tech" sounds like something easy. I didn't say unlearning is "as easy as a beginner tech", whatever you mean by that. I think "unlearning" something is hard, and has certain traps and pitfalls.
I think it is better not to try to "unlearn" the old way, but instead to focus on what is needed to learn the new way. Not necessarily quick or easy - it takes as long as it takes.
quote:
"practice makes permanent"
does that mean more or less the same as
quote:
practise strengthens the neural pathways for an activity or technique
RE: apoyando thumb during arpeggios (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
At faster tempos this will sound choppy (the C note will not ring out each beat from the previous), but at slow tempo or if you leave a pause on the thumb note duration it can work fine. More often when the rest stroke is desired a different pattern is done where you use ligados with p-i-m.
Thank you Ricardo that makes sense. I will explore being even with a tirando pulgar.
RE: apoyando thumb during arpeggios (in reply to callemunicion)
quote:
thanks. Can you make an example when you don't play apoyando with the thumb while playing arpegios? Is there a general rule for you?
Apoyando thumb during arpegio is not a general rule. Advocating thumb rest stroke is a biased observation. Biased towards Nino Ricardo, particularly Paco de Lucia because all modern players emulate the great maestro. It has become mainstream. If you watch other great players from Paco's generation like Perico del Lunar hijo and Paco Cepero, they do use thumb free stroke during arpegio.
RE: apoyando thumb during arpeggios (in reply to dartemo1)
quote:
ORIGINAL: dartemo1
I am wondering about 'not moving the rest of the hand' part. Actually, I've spent quite some time to practice a bit of wrist rotation to augment the thumb action. Is it wrong? thank you.
Not necessarily, it just adds to the palette of possibilities. Obviously if you use wrist rotation it pushes away the hand and the arpeggio fingers but that doesn't have to be a problem in all situations if you know what you're doing. First of all you can drop the hand in such a way the arpeggio fingers end up in a manageable position and on top proper relaxation and energy management can both restore position and support plugging the strings in ima direction (even pusing the fingers way out of reach of the strings might be part of a well oiled system, I remember using it when coloring a thump melody with Pimami at high speeds). By cutting of energy input before the hand is fixed in its new position the hand will bounce back in its original position automatically (like a knee cap reflex). I could even add some extra pushing power on the reststroke fixed thump (pushing the hand even further away) adding a trampoline kind of effect on top of that ending up with the hand and fingers bouching back in arpeggio position automatically while getting the first stroke for free. Not sure I can play like that anymore but I it was part of my technical palette 30 years ago to tackle certain fast passages.
No matter what technique is used, proper relaxation quite often is a key factor of success (make sure no tension is left in the thump when playing the arpeggio fingers). The benefit of making sure the hand relaxes during the thump (wrist) action is it wil make the fingers fall back in their natural relaxed starting position automatically, a lineup you can trust to be verry consistent. All you have to do is make sure that lineup ends up at a place were it supports your intended actions (with or without bouncing).
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RE: apoyando thumb during arpeggios (in reply to Erik van Goch)
quote:
By cutting of energy input before the hand is fixed in its new position the hand will bounce back in its original position automatically (like a knee cap reflex). I could even add some extra pushing power on the reststroke fixed thump (pushing the hand even further away) adding a trampoline kind of effect on top of that ending up with the hand and fingers bouching back in arpeggio position automatically while getting the first stroke for free.
When you play the following section beat 1-9 (see picture), do you move your hand (either a wrist rotation or a movement from the elbow) or do you suggest zero hand movement? When playing beat 10-12, do you change your arpegio hand position?
I still have to find a proper way of executing the whole section. My hand moves a lot. Particularly golpe and thumb rest strokes force me to move my hand position downwards. I think the movement comes from the wrist. After beat 10-12 I even end up with a pulgar hand position.
RE: apoyando thumb during arpeggios (in reply to mark indigo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: mark indigo As I understand it practise strengthens the neural pathways for an activity or technique, so a new technique will have a weak neural pathway and need time and effort putting in. Whether the time and effort are well spent, productive and successful will depend a lot on the mental approach.
The other thing that I think gets in the way of changing a technique, such as switching from free stroke to rest stroke with the thumb in arpegio is the concept of having to "unlearn" the old way of doing it. As long as the player has this in mind, that they've got to "unlearn the old way" or "don't do free stroke with the thumb" they will keep on callikng up that old program they have spent many hours practising, and then wonder why they keep on playing free stroke with the thumb instead of rest stroke with the thumb, and it seems so hard to change.
Better, IMO, to approach it as a "new" technique, and put in the necessary time and energy, than to go round in circles trying to "unlearn" something.
Spot on. As I used to tell my students, you start with a smal animal trail end you end up with a six lane highway *. As a matter of fact building up that neural pathway can be done both physically and mentally (thinking of doing a movement gives the same neural respons as doing the movement for real). As soon as I'm able to visualize/perform the action in my mind I favor that over doing it for real because it is less polluted with mistakes and translation mistakes. In my better days I could play complete pieces in my head as real as real can be (even feeling the physical contact with guitar and strings and the resonance of the guitar). Singing or playing a phrase a couple of times in your head can be a 1000 times more effective then playing it for real.
Practice cements what you are drilling so one better makes sure one is drilling good habits and not bad habits that have to be unlearned later on. Another wisdom tile in my teaching room is "repeating only makes sence if something is worth being repeated" or like a good bass player once said you must make it a habit not a single note escapes your instrument uncontrolled (pairing the right thought to the right action at first is more important as playing that note in time. It's way more easy to change timing once technical and mental control is achieved then to try to spot and improve technical flaws when playing in a strict time frame like a metronome).
It's important to know the human brain can handle only 1 thing at the time so for the best result study only one thing at the time. I took it to the extreme. For studying arpeggio for instance you don't need a left hand. It involves very focused study and control of things like proper relaxation and using one's natural biomechachanics. Fingers move in circulair movemends and where your finger ends up (and how effective your minimal input is) fully depends on how you project that circle. Key point are the big knukkles. Depending on how you position the big knukkles in relation to the string being plugged the fingers will either go away from the guitar or go into the guitar resulting in either tirando or apoyando. Best thing is to use what I call my walking hand (the relaxed hand and finger line up you have when walking) and bring that lineup to the place of the action. Depending on how you place your big knukkles (straight above the string being plugged is a good starting point) the circulair projection/outcome when moving your fingers wil turn out to be effective or less effective. For arpeggio best thing is to operate on the edge of tirando and apoyando (allowing selected fingers to play with a rest stroke) so tilting your hand 1 mm can bring you from one option into the other.
So improving yourself starts with studying ones natural biomechanics, hand lineup and proper relaxation. Since the brain can only handle 1 thing at the time try to break up things to small elements that are studied separately and with full focus (the smaller the object of your focus the bigger the result) Gradually start combining things and study more complex things but don't alow things to happen out of your control. One of the reasons I managed to completely reform myself in only 3 weeks once was starting from scratch and doing only 1 thing at the time, we're possible by means of mental visualisation. Old/unwanted habits and thoughts must be prevented at all costs so don't spoil an hour of serious (re)programming by doing some uncontrolled fun playing later on allowing the verry same bad habits to pop up you wanted to prevent.
Take into account the human brain needs about 6 hours to digest new information after you abandoned it. You can do whatever you want, read a book, watch a movie, eat or pick up another guitar challenge but don't, I repeat, don't come back to that first challenging exercise or pice of music before the first set is digested because you'd be better of just restricting to that first set or having a break of at least 6 hours. Things enough to do because to become great one must spent some quality time studying/improving one's technique (focus on relaxation, natural biomechanics) tonal pallet (exploring sound and dynamics) and expressing abilities (combining the previous 2).
* when learning a completely new thing the neurological pathway is still a kind of a blank sheet. Every time you repeat the new movement (physically or even better by visualizing it in your head) your brain keeps count and once a certain amount of tally marks is reached the brain seems to instruct the nerve system to increase the amount of nerves specializing in that task, verry much like a traffic counter might lead to building better infrastructure on places that show a growing demand of traffic. The trick is to make sure you cement the right habits when that neural infrastructure is build.
I had the fortune that when I reprogrammed myself I happened to develop and integrate a series of exercises that imo are verry effective in upgrading ones system. I call them my micro-exercises.
It all started with a classical guitarist showing me the folowing exercise. Put your lefthand finger on a string in one of the higher positions and push it towards the fret but in stead of doing so on normal spead try do walk that distance as slowly as possible (so slow you can't see the movement but without standing still). Once you reached the fret hold it for a while (with or without giving it the little extra power normally needed to get a clear sound) and then go back the same way, as slowly as possibly without standing still. I can tell you there is much to learn from those 2 mm that separates the string from the fret. (I call that the twilight zone). The first thing I would do when touching the guitar was put a finger on a string without pressing and then lift it. Next pres it a bit and go back to starting position. Next I would press it to halfway the twilight zone and hold it there for a while, enjoying the amount of energy floating from my finger into the string and the other way around. Next I would do the as slowly as possible exercise mentioned above.
I found this verry demanding and a real chalange for my nerve system and even better a chalange leading to new and highly sensitive nerve systems (keep in mind handling the string within the twilight one demands less pressing power then "normal" playing which in the end should be only that more that is needed to get a clear sound). From that first exercise I developed a whole series of exercises for both left and right hand paving both a better awareness understanding and control of my actions and natural biomechanics as wel cementing a new and highly sensitive nerve system supporting those actions. All it takes is smart thinking and lots of focus to explore and embrace one's natural biomechanics and relaxation.
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RE: apoyando thumb during arpeggios (in reply to devilhand)
Certain nonsense from an individual i don’t want to directly address anymore, however as seen here, just like Ramon Montoya and others before him, the thumb is used apoyando at times, and others not, in a standard way, for tremolo and arpeggio. It has nothing to do with N. Ricardo or PDL specifically. Watch from 1:08 onward.
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