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JasonM

Posts: 1904
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

Side slots screw up 

I messed up about 3 times cutting my side slots on the table saw yesterday. They do not meet at my 12 fret line anymore - they are about 2mm forward of it. I have allowed 5mm for the nut so I don't know if there is much to work with there. should I worry about this? Maybe not that noticeable visually but will it be a pain going forward leaving it the way it is? Altering measurements from the plan?



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 15 2017 14:51:24
 
Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3002
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Side slots screw up (in reply to JasonM

I wouldn't worry about it. The 12th fret can easily be +/- 2mm from the body join.
Also because the slots are slanted, the difference won't even be that much at the edges of the fingerboard. In fact, it's probably ideal to have them overshoot in the middle a little.
So there you go, a mistake becomes a skillful execution

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 15 2017 15:08:22
 
JasonM

Posts: 1904
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Side slots screw up (in reply to Andy Culpepper

Thanks Andy! I see what you mean about the slot angles. This whole guitar will be a skillfully executed mistake hopefully lol.

I've been meaning to ask, did you make that rosette in your avatar? Because it's awesome
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 15 2017 16:45:17
 
Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3002
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Side slots screw up (in reply to JasonM

I did, it was a custom order. Thanks.

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http://www.andyculpepper.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 15 2017 20:03:23
 
estebanana

Posts: 8672
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Side slots screw up (in reply to JasonM

Make the nut 4mn, cheat the 12th fret back 1mm.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2017 3:26:51
 
RobF

Posts: 1341
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Side slots screw up (in reply to JasonM

If your slots are parallel, Andy has a couple of pictures on a blog showing how he uses double wedges to lock in the sides.

http://www.andyculpepper.com/blog/2016/3/24/closing-the-box

If you’ve done a keyed type of single wedge slot, Pablo Requena has a really good video on YouTube showing how he does it.

https://youtu.be/g_hv8yoPWW0

Pablo’s instructional videos are a treasure.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2017 14:01:50
 
JasonM

Posts: 1904
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Side slots screw up (in reply to RobF

Yes, I could do that too Bannana, thanks. I've been studying your neck angle door shim Solera.

Rob, I'm planning on using shims to lock the sides in. I saw that YouTube video after I made the cuts. I didn't make a wedge shape like Ramanillos though. I still could and should but I'm feeling hesitant to cut again. Making the wedge looks like it will take me a lot of trial and error too.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2017 15:27:41
 
JasonM

Posts: 1904
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Side slots screw up (in reply to JasonM

Oh , I'm going to look through the late C.Vega's wood selection this afternoon. I'm hoping to find a semi stiff top. Considering I've never flexed a top I wish me the best of luck with that!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2017 15:37:32
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1604
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Side slots screw up (in reply to JasonM

It would be nice if you could also move the soundhole the same amount in the same direction so the 19th fret looks normal.

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I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 16 2017 17:37:30
 
Stephen Eden

 

Posts: 905
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Side slots screw up (in reply to JasonM

Depending on what is at the head end you could take 1mm from the the head veneer and 1mm from the nut and the's your 2 mm back. If you have taken then head veneer all of the way back to the transition into the head this is not a great fix but it can still work with some crafty chisel work when you come to install the nut.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 17 2017 9:52:42
 
estebanana

Posts: 8672
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Side slots screw up (in reply to JasonM

quote:

Yes, I could do that too Bannana, thanks. I've been studying your neck angle door shim Solera.


oh Interesting, I was using that about ten years ago....it's a good way to go if you are making a neck angle for an arch height you are working out. What Eden said is good, was going to mention that too. Take a milli off the nut and shave back the head veneer. Many a save has gone down that way. All fair game.

One of the most satisfying things with building when you get on with it is on the one hand nailing everything correctly start to ending. The other is knowing if you make a mistake that you can turn it on a dime and correct it with skill or even change it into an asset. At that point you make fewer mistakes, but there's almost a quiet kind of high knowing you are skilled enough to make a save. It's like you have some skill saved in the bank and you feel good knowing it's not a crisis.

There is never really a crisis, because all you are doing is working for time. If you need the money from a sale, time is dear and skill in the bank is your bread and butter. If you are building for thrills, take time to get skill by fixing the mistakes.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 17 2017 10:48:24
 
JasonM

Posts: 1904
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Side slots screw up (in reply to estebanana

But if I take a mm off the veneer then Id have to move the scarf joint line back right? Or are you saying to just let the nut sit over the line by a mm?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 18 2017 4:04:54
 
RobF

Posts: 1341
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Side slots screw up (in reply to JasonM

Jason, I think I know what you’re concerned about, but pls forgive if I’m misunderstanding.

If you use a shoulder plane to move back the head veneer by 1mm, as SEden and estebanana are suggesting, you can then remove the resulting head angle’s veneer underhang by reducing the thickness of the neck by only about 1/3mm. Just use the same shoulder plane to notch down the neck thickness until the veneer underhang is gone, then use a block plane to feather everything flat up the neck. Cleans up nicely.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 18 2017 10:26:37
 
Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3002
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Side slots screw up (in reply to JasonM

If you look at the picture, the way the edges of the fingerboard will be placed, the error will only be about 1 mm by my guess. You could easily take that out of the nut, but if you don't want to, I don't think it's a crime on your first guitar to have the edge of the 12th fret in line with the body instead of the center (the fret is ~2mm wide).
Another thing to think about if you want to start splitting pelos, if you haven't done this already, taking a normally slotted fingerboard and shaving about .75 mm off the nut end (effective simplification of Greg Byers' system) will help the intonation on most guitars if you then compensate the saddle back appropriately. That would also solve your problem.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 19 2017 12:36:11
 
estebanana

Posts: 8672
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Side slots screw up (in reply to JasonM

quote:

But if I take a mm off the veneer then Id have to move the scarf joint line back right? Or are you saying to just let the nut sit over the line by a mm?


You an usually pare back the leading edge of a headstock veneer 1 mm and leave it be. Then you can take a scaper with a razor sharp super hard pointed corner and make a pass or two to get a hard 90 degree corner back between head veneer leading edge and bed of the neck where the nut slot will remain as a space between veneer and fingerboard.


Pretend you are 3 mm tall and you are going in there with a flat bladed garden shovel and leveling a place to set some walking path bricks. Draw your whole self into that tiny space and feel the rising veneer edge like a sheer vertical wall. Imagine the neck surface as a pad of sand you are leveling with a shovel and line level.

Go into that mode of looking in every aspect of the neck nut, 12th fret, 19th fret condition.

If the 12th fret rides one mm over or above the exact body join only 1 in 100 guitarists will even notice, and probably not care. If an issue is made of that condition RED FLAG!- back out of commission. That kind of mental illness needs professional help. Don't hold hands with crazy people. Never f$ck or do business with someone crazier about detail than you. Keep your detail standards high, but not inhumanly so. It's a hand made object, you are not the Elephant Man or a CNC machine.

You'll need 3X mag visor, and don't smoke weed when you work.

Go in peace with this teaching of the ancients.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 20 2017 4:36:35
 
Haithamflamenco

Posts: 927
Joined: Mar. 6 2007
From: Bahrain

RE: Side slots screw up (in reply to JasonM

make another neck

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 20 2017 11:02:51
 
Stephen Eden

 

Posts: 905
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Side slots screw up (in reply to JasonM

Im not sure what you mean by the Scarf join line. If I am getting you correctly then I would say the the join doesn't need to be under the nut.

I've saved necks that have been 4mm off because I have forgotten to add the nut to the measurement.

I've also seen guitars where you can clearly see the head veneer under the nut. and it has just been shaved back. It actually doesn't look that bad.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 20 2017 13:10:17
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1604
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Side slots screw up (in reply to Haithamflamenco

quote:

make another neck


My advice is: Don't let Perfection be the Enemy of Good.

A first guitar (or a sixth or twelfth) is not supposed to be perfect. If you don't make mistakes, it means you are not learning anything. Build the guitar and learn from your mistakes. A guitar with cosmetic "mistakes" can still be a joy to play.

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Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 20 2017 14:39:54
 
JasonM

Posts: 1904
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Side slots screw up (in reply to constructordeguitarras

I've decided to leave it be and get on with the next step, and leave the veneer alone Thanks for the advice I definitely learned some things here.
I haven't thought about taking .75mm off the fingerboard but I'll look into it. Overall I'm trying to avoid unnecessary complications as a beginner of course.

Banana, I see what you mean about flattening out the nut channel. Eden, by scarf joint line, I'm referring to the perpendicular line where the neck shaft meets the headstock. I didn't want to plane the shaft along the scale length to move that line up the headstock more.

Anyway, I'm going to have more pressing questions for you guys soon!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 20 2017 22:44:45
 
JasonM

Posts: 1904
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Side slots screw up (in reply to constructordeguitarras

Fixed! Back in the game!



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 21 2017 18:53:39
 
Stephen Eden

 

Posts: 905
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Side slots screw up (in reply to JasonM

Great save! Who would have known you could just 'Erase' an error like that!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 22 2017 8:21:52
 
estebanana

Posts: 8672
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Side slots screw up (in reply to JasonM

Wow amazing, You also changed the neck from right hander left hander. Brilliant!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 22 2017 8:29:00
 
JasonM

Posts: 1904
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Side slots screw up (in reply to estebanana

Mamma always said Erase your mistakes. Easily removes apprentice marks.

I can't show the headstock because there isn't one. It's a secret headless bass style flamenco
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 22 2017 15:43:58
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