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RE: Raise a Glass to France!   You are logged in as Guest
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estebanana

 

Posts: 7545
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Raise a Glass to France! (in reply to BarkellWH

Yeah , Wilders, what a little twit. I seem to remember Indonesia saying they were not cool with Dutch rule. My step dad was in the Dutch Indonesia war, or known as the Indonesian revolution, he did not like it. He also never had regrets that Holland lost. Good lesson.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 9 2017 12:01:56
 
Leñador

Posts: 5229
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Raise a Glass to France! (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

Well, for instance the Scandinavian countries and also Holland were rather homogeneous societies until fairly recently. It can reasonably be argued that the recent large scale immigration, in particular by immigrants from very different cultures, is having a powerful divisive effect on their society.

That sounds very anecdotal.
For every anecdote there are many historical incidents of highly disfunctiinal homogenous societies.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 9 2017 13:32:27
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 2913
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Raise a Glass to France! (in reply to BarkellWH

As mentioned in my earlier post above, there is much more than just her anti-immigrant stance that places Marine le Pen on the Far Right.

Nevertheless, I think a distinction must be made between legal immigration in accordance with a nation's immigration law and regulations, and unchecked illegal immigration. I have always supported legal immigration to the United States, as I think it enhances the gene pool! And the U.S. has a very generous immigration system, taking in approximately one million legal immigrants annually. In the U.S., we don't need a "wall" on the southern border to check illegal immigration. All it would take would be implementation of the law already in place to heavily sanction employers of illegal immigrants and use of the "E-Verify" system that would catch illegals seeking employment via a name check against valid Social Security numbers. To fill the unskilled employment gap we could increase the visa numbers to legally bring in seasonal and other workers as field hands, harvesters, and other lower and unskilled labor as needed.

I do think that France, Italy, Germany and other European countries have to get a grip on the unchecked illegal migrants that come from everywhere, from Syria to a half dozen African countries. It is not Europe's responsibility to take them all in just because they show up on the shores of Italy and Greece, many of them are just seeking economic opportunity. In my opinion, Angela Merkel made a huge mistake when she publicly stated Germany would accept 800,000 Syrian and other illegal migrants in one fell swoop. Some are refugees under the United Nations definition, but many are simply fleeing poverty and harsh conditions. As much as possible, immigration should be via appropriate procedures and should allow for a process of integration and assimilation into the accepting country. And I strongly believe that immigrants have a responsibility to accept the social mores and culture of the host country. It is not the host country's responsibility to bend its social mores and culture to fit that of the immigrant who refuses to accept those of the host country.

Bill

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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 9 2017 15:54:24
 
Piwin

Posts: 2533
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Raise a Glass to France! (in reply to BarkellWH

I think at this point everyone's open to suggestions. Most of the time, when I discuss immigration with people who feel a need for tighter restrictions on it, I hear a lot of complaints about how the situation was handled, and very little in terms of actual alternatives (I don't mean to say this would be the case with you. It's just a general observation on conversations I've had). In fact, most of the time, they realize that most of what they would suggest is already in place. Though there are some areas where it's impossible to know whether our leaders did enough or not, unless you have direct knowledge of what goes on in the back channels of diplomacy (I'm thinking here in terms of the agreements that apparently weren't reached with other regional powers around Syria).
I think Merkel chose the least damageable option since otherwise certain border countries who were already on the brink financially would have just been unable to bear the load. The moral outcome of just "shutting the doors" completely would also have just killed the European project in its very core. I don't think the EU would have survived such a decision. But well, these are just hypotheticals.
On the larger issue, beyond this one specific situation with the war in Syria, the only thing more that I think they should do aside from what it's already being done, is to try to reinforce police cooperation around the Mediterranean and make a serious attempt at tackling the organised crime that smuggles people in or leaves them to die in the middle of the sea if they can't make it. But that's probably a pipe dream. When you look at all the member states of Interpol and consider that their budget is under 100million dollars a year, it's surprising they get anything done.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 9 2017 16:27:23
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1753
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Raise a Glass to France! (in reply to estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

I seem to remember Indonesia saying they were not cool with Dutch rule. My step dad was in the Dutch Indonesia war, or known as the Indonesian revolution, he did not like it. He also never had regrets that Holland lost. Good lesson.


My granddad was there around the 20-ties and wrote a pretty revealing diary which unfortunately was lost. My dad was never allowed it read it. The dutch ruled Indonesia in the same way America was concurred and the Belgians and France ruled Congo around the 1900's, with whips and guns overruling and killing whoever they wanted. The average solder might not have been involved with that (so they say) but some (secret?) groups were real scum backs so many war crimes were committed their by us right after WW 11 up to the 50ties (couldn't believe my ears when i heard it for the first time, it's not part of our history lessons unless it's one of your mayors). People refusing to fight in Indonesia in the 40ties were imprisoned and lost their right on welfare. At the time we claimed to free Indonesia from the Japanese but in reality we just defended our colony. One dutch guy (Poncke Princen) did the only decent thing one could do and joined the indonesian forces to fight the dutch. The only reason we left in the end was because we were forced by America (so their intervention with foreign politics was not always that bad as it is since). Unfortunately Indonesia is suffering a growing grip from fundamentalist islam right now which is desastrus for many. Transsexuals for instance, some of who were huge tv celebrities over there, are now hunted animals and new rules forbid to help/promote them in any way. Also new rules seem to forbid certain activities on certain parts of the day so a shop or restaurant can suddenly be attacked and set on fire just for opening or being there 5 minutes to early. A Cristian governor was just sentenced to jail for 2 years for insulting the Koran. Unfortunately blasphemy is not only punished by islam because the wonderful Stephen Fry is now involved in a judicial inquiry of Ireland in order to prosecute him for blasphemy for this statement done in an interview in Ireland in 2015.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 9 2017 20:16:15
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 2711
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Raise a Glass to France! (in reply to Erik van Goch

Yesterday I read that the Stephen Fry investigation had been closed by the Irish police. They couldn't find "a substantial body of people" who had been offended by his remark.

http://tinyurl.com/ky659pt

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 9 2017 21:40:23
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1753
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Raise a Glass to France! (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan

Yesterday I read that the Stephen Fry investigation had been closed by the Irish police. They couldn't find "a substantial body of people" who had been offended by his remark.


That's a relieve

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 9 2017 22:11:48
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 2913
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Raise a Glass to France! (in reply to Erik van Goch

quote:

The only reason we left [Indonesia] in the end was because we were forced by America....


Erik, you are probably aware of the Aceh War (1873-1903), in which the Dutch brutally attempted to subdue Aceh in northern Sumatra. An interesting element was the tangential involvement of the American Consul in Singapore who was approached by Acehnese emissaries. The war began as a result of the 1871 Anglo-Dutch Treaty of Sumatra, which, inter-alia, gave the Dutch a free hand in Aceh, which was then and still is today the most stridently Islamicized region in Indonesia (at that time the Dutch East Indies).

in early 1873 Acehnese emissaries approached the American Consul in Singapore about a possible Acehnese-American treaty, as they knew the Dutch, who now had a free hand, were likely to intervene. The Dutch became aware of the talks and used them as justification to intervene and begin bombardment of the Acehnese capital of Kutaraja (now Banda Aceh). The American Consul was sympathetic to the Acehnese proposal, but the State Department in Washington rejected it.

The war lasted for 30 years and was as brutal as they come. The Dutch brought in the noted anthropologist and expert on Islam Dr. Christiaan Snouck Hurgronje as the Principal Advisor to the Dutch colonial government on Islam and indigenous Indies matters. Snouck Hurgronje said nothing could be done to appease the Ulamas (religious leaders) and the only course of action was to crush them. This was done. In 1903 Sultan Tuanku Daud Syah surrendered and the Dutch military commander, Johannes Benedictus van Heutsz was appointed Governor General.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 9 2017 22:46:09
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1753
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Raise a Glass to France! (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH


Erik, you are probably aware of the Aceh War (1873-1903), in which the Dutch brutally attempted to subdue Aceh in northern Sumatra.


I actually know little or nothing about that period of time other then that we did not act very pleasantly to say the least. It's only recently that the truth is promoted over here and famous books like "great things happened over there' met their equal in books like "horrible things happened over there". So cense/openness of hour less pleasant history grows over here in books, media and musea but up to today the scum of the past still pops up in street names etc.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 9 2017 23:25:50
 
estebanana

 

Posts: 7545
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Raise a Glass to France! (in reply to Leñador

quote:

quote:

Well, for instance the Scandinavian countries and also Holland were rather homogeneous societies until fairly recently. It can reasonably be argued that the recent large scale immigration, in particular by immigrants from very different cultures, is having a powerful divisive effect on their society.

That sounds very anecdotal.
For every anecdote there are many historical incidents of highly disfunctiinal homogenous societies.



I like to point out that many prehistoric and early historic homogeneous societies divided into two factions hat fought one another until one faction was extinct. Easter Island is one example. How happy we are on our island paradise, kill kill kill kill --de forest kill deforest kill....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 10 2017 0:47:44
 
estebanana

 

Posts: 7545
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Raise a Glass to France! (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

As much as possible, immigration should be via appropriate procedures and should allow for a process of integration and assimilation into the accepting country. And I strongly believe that immigrants have a responsibility to accept the social mores and culture of the host country. It is not the host country's responsibility to bend its social mores and culture to fit that of the immigrant who refuses to accept those of the host country.


I get what you're pointing out, and I have seen problems arise in CA due to the boundaries of cultures slamming into each other. One case was in Newark where the text books did not meet the morality requirements of a group on immigrant Indian parents and the raised the issue to school board who defended the choice of textbook. The parents became irate, more trouble..etc. a big waste of time money and litigation. The parents were prudes by Western educational standards, and they elected to move to the west, so too bad.

On the other hand, San Francisco has had a 'China Town" for more than one hundred fifty years that seems to exist with a kind of acceptable cultural autonomy. There is also Little Kabul in the Eaat Bay, which is the largest Afghan community outside the home country, there is Japan town in LA and the vast Viet community in Tempe Arizona, the Mung farmers in the Central Valley of CA I could go on and on. My idea is I don't want to see these folks forced become white Americans in the extreme; I want to see immigrants left to be autonomous as separate cultures within the greater culture and hold onto any identity via cultural means when it is not in unreasonable conflict legally or otherwise with the main culture.

I think we have observed that with cultures that have settled in the US and one thing to say to arriving culture is observe the cultures that are successful at adapting to the life of a new country. There is a lot of anti-immigrant blow back from white people that is just out right xenophobia, and that's also just too bad, for the xenophobes. They don't have a right to xenophobia, it's a sickness and they need help. Or to just shut up.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 10 2017 1:14:08
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 2913
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Raise a Glass to France! (in reply to estebanana

quote:

My idea is I don't want to see these folks forced become white Americans in the extreme; I want to see immigrants left to be autonomous as separate cultures within the greater culture and hold onto any identity via cultural means when it is not in unreasonable conflict legally or otherwise with the main culture.


I don't think that retaining one's national and ethnic culture is incompatible with integrating into the American culture writ large. In every American city of any size there is a "Pulaski Hall" where Poles celebrate Polish culture and holidays, while at the same time having assimilated into the larger American culture. The same holds true for Bulgarians, Ukrainians, and other East Europeans from Chicago to Phoenix. In Fairfax, Virginia there is a complex of Vietnamese restaurants, supermarkets, and jewelry shops called "Eden Center." They have two flags flying in the center: the old South Vietnamese flag flying alongside the American flag. They celebrate both American holidays and Vietnamese holidays, but they consider themselves very much Americans now. It is perfectly reasonable to celebrate one's historical, ethnic culture while embracing the American culture to which one belongs.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 10 2017 1:42:52
 
Piwin

Posts: 2533
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Raise a Glass to France! (in reply to Erik van Goch

The worst part of that story is that the man who lodged a complaint said he wasn't personally offended by Fry's statement, he just thought it was his civic duty to report a crime. It's the same moralistic meddling into people's lives that has kept making life unnecessarily hard for everyone for probably all of history.
Fortunately most believers I know would not get offended by such a statement. Most of them have gone through phases where they thought very similar things, albeit in a less "violent" language and coming to a different conclusion than Fry. But clearly there is no justifiable reason to maintain a blasphemy law in our contemporary world. Correct if I'm wrong but even with that law in place, it's still pretty much moot isn't it? By that I mean there hasn't been any successful condemnation of anyone on those grounds for a long time, has there? (obviously I mean in Ireland, not in some other parts of the world)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 10 2017 7:47:45
 
estebanana

 

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Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Raise a Glass to France! (in reply to estebanana

Probably during the Reformation and the Counter Reformation the blasphemy laws were a tons of fun to trap your political opponents with, but after that probably only in Spain and Portugal were they really toothy.

So yeah anyone with blasphemy laws on the brain is probably a time traveler from the Reformation.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 10 2017 8:24:58
 
Piwin

Posts: 2533
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Raise a Glass to France! (in reply to estebanana

quote:

So yeah anyone with blasphemy laws on the brain is probably a time traveler from the Reformation.


Or just really bored. I'm surprised that people don't exploit these loopholes more j.ust for the hell of it. Isn't there a city somewhere in the UK where it's technically still legal to kill a Scotsman if he's carrying a bow and arrow?
Amazing nobody's done it. And kind of disapointing.
"Hamish, could you hold my bow for a second?"

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 10 2017 14:40:35
 
estebanana

 

Posts: 7545
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Raise a Glass to France! (in reply to estebanana

When I was a little kid growing up in San Bernardino there was a still law on the books that stated you could not drive your pigs down E Street.

E Street was famous through out Southern CA as the most important cruising street on Saturday night. The Van Halen song about E street was about that E street.The Van Halen's lived in Fontana, about 20 minutes from SB. So did Frank Zappa...anyway, no pigs, but three miles of bumper to bumper mix of rednecks in Ford pickups and lowriders and dumb high school kids without any style at all in any kind of car, most of whom were drinking in the vehicles...but damn you if you whipped your pigs and drove them to market via E Street.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 10 2017 20:12:41
 
Escribano

Posts: 5952
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: Italy

RE: Raise a Glass to France! (in reply to Piwin

quote:

Isn't there a city somewhere in the UK where it's technically still legal to kill a Scotsman if he's carrying a bow and arrow?


In England, it is legal and perfectly acceptable to kill a Scotsman, whatever he is carrying Just kidding.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 10 2017 22:15:40
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