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Do back and sides tonewoods make a difference on laminates?
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bluespiderweb
Posts: 18
Joined: Mar. 24 2017
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 RE: Do back and sides tonewoods make... (in reply to mark74)
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Yes, I think they do Mark, especially to the player's ear, but far less to the audience's ear. That is to say, if your hearing is good, anyway. Same with different woods in solid wood instruments, and being able to tell that they make a difference in tone to the player's ear. At least, that's what my ears tell me, and I am more focused on tone than I am on learning a tune. In other words, I'm a tone junkie, and probably why I love so many different instruments. Playing them is such a trip, and hearing the various tones is a big part of why I play any one. It's also about making music yourself of course-whether it's trying to learn a tune, or improvising.
I think there is much more influence to tone production in other details, like construction methods-top woods, bracing, etc, including neck wood material, thick or thin (and types) finishes, than just types of woods used (laminated or not) on the back and sides. Which then is just a minor detail of the tone color, compared to other tonal factors like resonance, balance, dynamics etc.
So, when I pick out a guitar at a store, I sometimes go by what woods I think I will like first, and then just let me ears to the hard work. Often I am surprised that I come home with something different than I was thinking I would like, because I found something that my ears just said-take this one home, or you're a big dope!!! I've been happiest it seems when I've listened to them too!
What really surprises me is how well they are building lower end guitars today, as far as tone per dollar goes, and laminated woods (for back and sides) can make fine sounding instruments, with a decent solid top, that is.
Edit: I was thinking that this tonal difference with laminated or solid wood back and sides might just be more pronounced (and easier to hear) in steel string guitars. That is what I've played most of my life, and what I'm more familiar with, than nylon stringed guitars, in general. Not sure, just kind of makes sense though.
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Barry
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Date Mar. 29 2017 8:35:10
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RobJe
Posts: 732
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK
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RE: Do back and sides tonewoods make... (in reply to mark74)
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I can’t really answer the question, but for any guitar – and particularly a cheaper guitar, my priority would not be how it sounds but how it feels. It depends of course on whether you want to look at it or play flamenco.
In the 1960s the old Conde brothers had a little factory in Pozuelo de Alarcón where they made a lot of cheap guitars using solid but lower grade wood. I saw many with bent necks, splits and varnish that flaked off. But the majority of these guitars scored highly for the qualities that players wanted in those days. Occasionally I come across a survivor and am reminded of these guitars that I admired so much.
In modern times people want durable shiny finishes with beautiful woodgrain, no cracks and no warping. Well, with laminated wood, ostentatious neck re-enforcement and even a truss rod you can find reasonably priced guitars that appear to be much better behaved than those in the cheaper end of the 60’s market. And of course they are better in every respect – except the most important one.
Of course practices won’t revert back to those in the 60s, but when we consider buying an impeccably grained laminated guitar, we should give some thought the priorities that have driven its construction. I have seen quite a few reasonably priced “oldies” recently. Shiny new guitars, like shiny new cars, are worth a lot less as soon as you get them home. We should learn to embrace the scratched, the bent, the cracked and of course the solid before real guitars disappear altogether.
Rob
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Date Mar. 29 2017 20:58:56
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bluespiderweb
Posts: 18
Joined: Mar. 24 2017
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RE: Do back and sides tonewoods make... (in reply to Sr. Martins)
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I looked up your term Madera contrachapada, and it seems to mean just plywood. Instrument woods, even laminated back and sides use real instrument woods for the outer skins, and if anything, the inside surface of the back and sides that the strings and soundboard (top) send sound waves to, at least have some bearing as to being reflective or absorbing, in different amounts by the characteristics of porosity and density of the various woods used, I would imagine.
So I believe you are not hearing tone based on just what is inside the laminations, but what at least reflects sound on the inside of the guitar. I do find it difficult to believe that the outside of the laminated woods would do much for tone, however. Though flexibility of the whole lamination might have some small effect on tone, but probably not a lot. I think more that the top has so much more to contribute to the tone, in combination with the inside laminated woods that a builder uses. In other words, a Rosewood laminated back and sides that have Rosewood for the inside and outside layer being the same wood, will sound differently from say for instance, a Mahogany laminated guitar, with the same top and model guitar.
Of course, if you are looking at models that are very cheap, with a laminated top as well, then all bets are off, and any kind of wood may be used, as a laminate that is just cheap and easy to produce (just say laminated Linden wood, and Catalpa neck for example). I would not go there, at all, if you are shopping for a guitar. At least you should get a solid top model to get past the worst of them, and maybe the more recommended or popular ones, and at times a recognized manufacture like Yamaha or other more well known one will be a better choice if you cannot spend a lot of money. But sure, buy what you can afford and what speaks to you, if you are shopping with your ears and trying individual guitars by playing them yourself. That helps so much, instead of internet buying. That works some of the time, but certainly not all the time.
Then there is the fact that no two guitars sound exactly alike, even in standardized mass production guitars, let alone handcrafted instruments. I recently bought a Yamaha CG162S and was able to play another of the same model at a George's Music here in the US, and the one I took home blew away the other same model guitar.
So, no doubt, many factors contribute to the tone, and the back and sides woods, either laminated or solid woods, makes some difference, but certainly not all. Even what strings you use alters the tone, or comparing the same model with fresh strings or old strings can be very critical to the tone you hear when comparing guitars in the stores, or makers shop even. I know that here in the US, some music stores are not keeping their inventories properly maintained very often, including adequate humidity levels and changing strings when they start sounding dead. So all of this has a direct effect on tone, and your impressions when you pick one up to play and compare with others at the same shop, or even a different shop with the same guitar. At least I have found this on my most recent trials looking for the right guitars.
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Barry
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Date Mar. 29 2017 21:50:36
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bluespiderweb
Posts: 18
Joined: Mar. 24 2017
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RE: Do back and sides tonewoods make... (in reply to RobJe)
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Rob, some of these impeccably grained, shiny finished less expensive laminated (with solid top) guitars today are pretty damned good compared to older solid wood low end guitars made in the 60's and such. Sure, you can find some deals there too-but as you said too-often with warps, cracks, etc, the often have show what shortcuts they took to make them in years gone by, though there are some well made ones out there too-no doubt.
I do think general knowledge in guitar construction has come a long way from then, and continues to produce superior products that sound great and probably hold up better in the long term as well. Of course, that will be borne out in years to come whether that is true or not for various models, but I think for one's lifetime (if you aren't too young!), they will continue to serve us well with the solid top, laminated back and sides mainstream market that exists today, if we care for them properly, too.
So what I mean is that I think we are lucky to have so many reasonably priced guitars out there to choose from, and they sound very good, and will probably hold up over time too.
If you are so lucky as to be able to purchase from the higher end instruments and makers, then no doubt you will get a better guitar, especially with private luthiers, who often make guitars from their souls, and not their profit margins-and will hold resale value at higher rates often too. But in this hard economy, many of us need to keep costs down, and purchase our budget range guitars. Which, again I say we are very lucky to have these lower priced options that still make us happy to play and learn. Choosing the back and side woods may be helpful, but I just go by my ears that tell me if a guitar is going home with me-not my preference for the various woods, or whether they are laminated or solid.
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Barry
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Date Mar. 29 2017 23:19:56
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