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RE: Sabicas's Advice to Non-Spaniards Playing Flamenco Guitar (August 1982 Interview by Paul Magnussen   You are logged in as Guest
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BarkellWH

Posts: 2844
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Sabicas's Advice to Non-Spaniard... (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

I think the "flamenco atmosphere" is a moving target.


To a certain extent it is like any other cultural attribute in that it is affected by the political, economic, and social currents of a given era. In Spain that would have been the case even if the Republicans had won the civil war. Nevertheless, core elements of that atmosphere, while affected, maintained a recognizable continuity. I'm sure that Sabicas was well aware of Spain's history, but I'm equally sure that he would have believed that non-Spaniards must absorb the "flamenco atmosphere," however defined in any given era, in order to play with "aire," which is what I think he was driving at.

I suspect Sabicas would not have thought it necessary to absorb that atmosphere only in Spain. There was a very vibrant flamenco community in Buenos Aires in the '30s and '40s of which he and others were a part, and there is no reason to believe the core of what he called "flamenco atmosphere" could not have been absorbed there. The trick, as I understand Sabicas, is to learn, practice, and play flamenco within that "flamenco atmosphere" if one wants to reach beyond mere technical proficiency. I doubt that he would quibble over whether one accomplished it in Andalucia, Madrid, Buenos Aires, or for that matter New York.

Bill

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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 17 2017 15:11:06
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11128
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Sabicas's Advice to Non-Spaniard... (in reply to BarkellWH

I am pretty sure the "aire" he means is about the way you make the guitar sound, not the environmental surrounding. Meaning, a guitarist that has "aire" can be alone or be the one producing the main authentic flavor, that flavor could be rhythmic or dynamics, tonos or chord useage, etc, a number of technical details that collectively project the right vibe. But he or she needed to have picked that up somewhere at some point, or evolved it along with other artists he or she worked with. I would agree that the "flamenco atmosphere" might have existed out side of spain, however, due to the internal evolution of the art form, it will go a different route than the main stream. Examples have been easy to see, if you know what to look for stylistically. In the old days (watch Rito y Geografia), the aficionados and artists would talk about a singer they approved of that had the right sound and style and say that he or she had "eco". THis is a similar vague musical description that doesn't mean literally that they think the guy's voice was bouncing around a room in a unique way.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 17 2017 17:48:27
 
fyr4efect

 

Posts: 50
Joined: Apr. 6 2014
From: Arizona

RE: Sabicas's Advice to Non-Spaniard... (in reply to BarkellWH

Then there is the Arabic influence of Flamenco. That's a whole other atmosphere to absorb.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 25 2017 14:24:41
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 2844
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Sabicas's Advice to Non-Spaniard... (in reply to fyr4efect

quote:

Then there is the Arabic influence of Flamenco. That's a whole other atmosphere to absorb.


The Arabic (more precisely Moorish), Sephardic Jewish, and Andalusian Gitano are all elements that have influenced flamenco as a whole and really cannot be separated into distinct elements or "atmospheres" within the genre. Nevertheless, the Zambras certainly bring the Moorish influence to the fore, and Sabicas was a master of the Zambra, as his Danza Mora demonstrates in spades.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 25 2017 16:54:37
 
fyr4efect

 

Posts: 50
Joined: Apr. 6 2014
From: Arizona

RE: Sabicas's Advice to Non-Spaniard... (in reply to BarkellWH

yeah I heard the purest Arabic element died out cause the dancers kept running into each other with their burkas
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 25 2017 18:51:58
 
Leñador

Posts: 5229
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Sabicas's Advice to Non-Spaniard... (in reply to BarkellWH



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Attachment (1)

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\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 25 2017 19:18:06

Piwin

Posts: 2233
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Sabicas's Advice to Non-Spaniard... (in reply to fyr4efect

Actually burqas are not thought to have originated in Arabic societies at all but in Eastern Iranian societies (specifically pre-Islamic Pashtun societies). One indication that it was and is still rather foreign to the North African "Moorish" countries is the fact that the manufacturing and sale of burqas has just recently been banned in the Kingdom of Morrocco. It might have worked better with niqabs. Those too are foreign to North Africa but they do originate from the Arabian Peninsula so at least they're Arabic.

One possible artefact of Arabic in flamenco may be the jaleo "olé" as it is theorized that the word may come from some reference to Allah, which may have been used to express feelings of awe or similar when an artist had accomplished something so incredible or moving that no mere human could have done it on his own.

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L'homme qui trouve douce sa patrie est encore un tendre débutant ; celui pour lequel tout sol est comme son sol natal est déjà fort ; mais celui-ci est parfait pour qui le monde entier est comme un pays étranger.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 25 2017 20:25:32
 
fyr4efect

 

Posts: 50
Joined: Apr. 6 2014
From: Arizona

RE: Sabicas's Advice to Non-Spaniard... (in reply to Piwin

Ah ha! so they had to import them! No wonder the element died out.
Injury law suits and out of control shipping costs.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 25 2017 22:47:30
 
Nito

Posts: 76
Joined: Sep. 3 2015
 

RE: Sabicas's Advice to Non-Spaniard... (in reply to fyr4efect

Sabicas said atmosphere. But he could say 'soniquete', 'pellizco'

For instance,In general, people in this foro play the guitar very very well, but only few have 'pellizco'.

IMO it's not play diabolic falsetas, it's feelings.

Cante, uffff is different...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 26 2017 17:16:23
 
fyr4efect

 

Posts: 50
Joined: Apr. 6 2014
From: Arizona

RE: Sabicas's Advice to Non-Spaniard... (in reply to Nito

Soul.... not exclusive to Spain or Flamenco.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 26 2017 21:18:05
 
Cañailla

 

Posts: 6
Joined: Mar. 3 2017
 

RE: Sabicas's Advice to Non-Spaniard... (in reply to BarkellWH

What Sabicas said applies today to most Spanish flamencos today. Most of the pros who get hired for some show and work in pubs or theatres etc. don't come from any of the "families". They just studied it in some academy like you can study English (case in point, Eva Yerbabuena). The only time they live the way Sabicas is suggesting is when they're on tour and they're all together in the same hotels for weeks or months. But it's not their normal life and certainly not the way most were raised.

The 60s were a different time. An exceptional generation of flamencos were all living in Madrid (just like the previous generation of greats were living in Seville). It was easy back then to surround yourself and live in a certain way.

Ironically this has to do with flamenco reaching the mainstream. When flamenco was generally looked down upon in Spain, flamencos had to stick together. Today, anybody from any background can say he wants to learn flamenco and it's seen as a good thing.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 3 2017 1:28:47
 
mark74

Posts: 690
Joined: Jan. 26 2011
 

RE: Sabicas's Advice to Non-Spaniard... (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

I suspect Sabicas would not have thought it necessary to absorb that atmosphere only in Spain. There was a very vibrant flamenco community in Buenos Aires in the '30s and '40s of which he and others were a part, and there is no reason to believe the core of what he called "flamenco atmosphere" could not have been absorbed there. The trick, as I understand Sabicas, is to learn, practice, and play flamenco within that "flamenco atmosphere" if one wants to reach beyond mere technical proficiency. I doubt that he would quibble over whether one accomplished it in Andalucia, Madrid, Buenos Aires, or for that matter New York.


That sounds like a good point. There was a place in Miami in the 90's named Casa Panza that was run by a Spaniard and had a lot of flamencos and wannabe Spanish Cubans (sometimes myself included) hanging around. I think the place had the atmosphere that was conducive to aire. Don't know if its changed. Maybe some of the restaurants and tapas bars some of you guys play or hang around have it.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 3 2017 21:02:43
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