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Ricardo

Posts: 13336
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (in reply to payaso

quote:

Is this really the most helpful advice? And is this the way the members who post this stuff really learned everything? Or could there be an element of snobbery at work here?


Books and transcriptions are simply tools, if you understand how to weed through the material they can help. They are simply, as "cheap" as you think they are, extremely inefficient IN COMPARISON to learning directly with other humans that have more knowledge. At most they can take you a certain distance, at worst they can lead students down completely wrong paths (COMPAS wise mainly, but also technique and general concepts). Rather than view it as snobbery it is more like "oh, been there done that, spent time and money that were wasted, general concensus was right all along, get a teacher at any cost".

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 15 2016 17:11:06
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13336
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (in reply to Morante

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante

quote:


Paco de Lucia, Tomatito and Camaron de la Isla == Father, Son and The Holy Ghost.


Canal Sur has taken to showing programmes from Rito y Geografía. The other night it was Tía Anica La Piriñaca. Apart from giving a master class in cante jondo, flanked by Tío Borríco and Fernabdo Terremoto and accompanied by Manuel Morao, she also gave an interview where she opined that Camarón was not a great singer, especially por siguiriyas and that she much preferred Pansequito. I can only imagine her opinion of PDL et al, but she is only a flamenco legend while we have lots of experts here to put her right


She also said in the same interview she tried to teach it to Mairena and he just couldn't get it right. These types of arrogant opinions coming from old timers are cute, but grain of salt of course. Agujetas dad said some smack about Mairena about Romances and such, and Manuel was laughing like "**** don't say that on camera" type thing...then they tell Diego to shut his mouth when he tries singing off camera. It's all a big comedy of egos but it's charming at the same time because they are just stating the truth after all.

It's those little gems in Rito y Geografia that make it the ultimate source IMO...opinions about take 12 Solea performance of some vinyl records that aficionados adhere to are just the tip of the iceberg regarding cante and don't' tell a lot about the art form.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 15 2016 17:14:54
 
Morante

 

Posts: 1904
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

It's those little gems in Rito y Geografia that make it the ultimate source IMO...opinions about take 12 Solea performance of some vinyl records that aficionados adhere to are just the tip of the iceberg regarding cante and don't' tell a lot about the art form.


Absolutely! In Jerez they used to say that Camarón tiene voz de gato: this could be due to the rivalry between Cádiz y Jerez or because Jerez had lots of cantaores con voz de hombre, Terremoto, Torta, even La Paquera In Cádiz they say that the jerezanos are gritones.

I think it was David Serva who told me that in Madrid the guitarists used to wait together for work. When Agujetas came in there was a rush for the back door and the slowest had to accompany Agujetas

In flamenco everybody loves each other, or alternatively everbody hates each other. Certainly there is more guasa que gracia.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 15 2016 18:14:40
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

extremely inefficient IN COMPARISON to learning directly with other humans that have more knowledge.

Of course a flamenco teacher would say that!
Haha just kidding, it is true. if you could quantify your learning with numbers your "abilities to dollars spent" would go muuuuuch further with a teacher.

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\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 15 2016 18:58:51
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (in reply to Ricardo

Thank Goodness Ricardo finally showed up, I was running low on 'Guasarcasm'.

I friend of mine asked Fernanda what she thought of Mairena, she evidently said "Yes he's very good, but you can understand his words too easily."

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 15 2016 23:49:39
 
chester

Posts: 842
Joined: Oct. 29 2010
 

RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

quote:

Is this really the most helpful advice? And is this the way the members who post this stuff really learned everything? Or could there be an element of snobbery at work here?


I find your suggestion that the advice offered by Foro members on this thread represents an "element of snobbery" to be arrogant and a form of inverse snobbery itself.


I dunno. Personally I was put off by all this 'forget everything you know, move to Spain, become a cante disciple' mentality. I wanted to learn some cool sh*t on guitar - not join a cult.

If I were to ever sleep on someone's floor -- he'd better be teaching me how to fly.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 16 2016 1:00:59
 
chester

Posts: 842
Joined: Oct. 29 2010
 

RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (in reply to estebanana

quote:

Thank Goodness Ricardo finally showed up, I was running low on 'Guasarcasm'.

Did someone leave a vacuum cleaner on?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 16 2016 1:03:08
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (in reply to chester

quote:

Did someone leave a vacuum cleaner on?


Ross Perot fan?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 16 2016 1:08:51
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (in reply to chester

quote:

I dunno. Personally I was put off by all this 'forget everything you know, move to Spain, become a cante disciple' mentality. I wanted to learn some cool sh*t on guitar - not join a cult.

If I were to ever sleep on someone's floor -- he'd better be teaching me how to fly.




Here is another thread from 6 months back were yet different 'foro snobs' mention getting some lessons on skype- You don't even have to get our of your Archie Bunker chair or go to Spain. You could order a flamenco guitar via the internet, tune it up and take skype lessons from half a dozen professional players and never leave your LIVING ROOM! Awesome!

As far as joining a cult, I would heed the words of Groucho Marx- "I would never join a club that would have me as a member."


http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=291084&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 16 2016 1:18:25
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

I wanted to learn some cool sh*t on guitar - not join a cult.

Then why go through all the trouble of flamenco, I hear Esteban has some cool videos for sale, and Ottmar Liebert transcriptions are easy to come by.

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\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 16 2016 3:45:14
 
chester

Posts: 842
Joined: Oct. 29 2010
 

RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (in reply to estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

quote:

Did someone leave a vacuum cleaner on?


Ross Perot fan?

Actually got that line from the Fresh Prince
(...figured you'd be too old for that reference)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 16 2016 5:48:12
 
DavRom

 

Posts: 310
Joined: Jul. 16 2015
From: De camino a Sevilla

RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (in reply to Morante

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante

I think it was David Serva who told me that in Madrid the guitarists used to wait together for work. When Agujetas came in there was a rush for the back door and the slowest had to accompany Agujetas


That's fk'n hilarious!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 16 2016 8:09:20
 
Flamencito

Posts: 334
Joined: Oct. 31 2012
From: The Netherlands

RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (in reply to Ricardo

I agree that having a good teacher is essential to find the right path.

Another good thing might be to record your playing and post it here on the foro. I am pretty sure you will get some very valuable feedback on that!

Cheers!

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Hola Caracola
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 16 2016 10:38:40
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3308
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (in reply to chester

quote:

I dunno. Personally I was put off by all this 'forget everything you know, move to Spain, become a cante disciple' mentality. I wanted to learn some cool sh*t on guitar - not join a cult.


I don't think anyone suggested moving to Spain. I certainly didn't. My suggestion, and that of others as well, was if at all possible to engage a teacher. There are very good flamenco guitar teachers right here in the U.S.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 16 2016 10:53:29
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1762
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (in reply to 31special

quote:

I sound more than Jesse Cook than Vicente Amigo


Don’t panic — Vicente is sounding more like Jesse every year
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 16 2016 15:53:08
 
Mark2

Posts: 1696
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (in reply to payaso

As was mentioned, does anyone think they can learn to play classical music well on the violin, viola, cello, etc from books and videos? Maybe they do, I don't visit forums that discuss those things, but it would seem to me to be a rather absurd expectation. Same with flamenco guitar I think. But, I am an old dude who learned face to face from a maestro, and later studied with a half dozen other flamenco guitarists, face to face. When I really put it together, to the extent I was able, was after a few years in a dance school, then a few more playing for local dance groups. I know it's a brave new world and I could now get privates via Skype with top players in Spain, and once in a while someone comes along who seemingly really has it together without going through all that uh, traditional old fashioned BS, but I think the best way is still the old way for most folks. I don't think it is a dis-service to point that out to people who want to know.
Chester mentioned the cult thing, and I understand that not many want to go down that road, but I really believe that unless at some point you are ready to commit to a full immersion, wherever you might be and to what extent one is able, you aren't going to go very far. Frankly, if I had known at the beginning what was involved to reach the level I had hoped to attain, I might have left it alone.




quote:

ORIGINAL: payaso

Whenever anybody asks the foro about what books to look for as a help to learning flamenco guitar, the standard answer always seems to be something like ‘don’t buy books, they’re only for beginners, find a teacher, transcriptions are “wrong”, just learn from recordings without reading music or tab, go to Spain, it’ll take years of immersion in flamenco to get anywhere, just think how long it took Maestro Fulano’.

Is this really the most helpful advice? And is this the way the members who post this stuff really learned everything? Or could there be an element of snobbery at work here?

For the tens of thousands (maybe hundreds of thousands) who are keen to learn flamenco guitar, many will have neither the funds nor the ease of access to find a teacher. And how many good teachers are there outside Spain apart from in major urban centres?

Why, if this antipathy to books is so prevalent, is there also so much discussion on the foro about transcriptions, tabs and how to get them?

There are now several extremely helpful books on learning flamenco combined with CD’s and DVDs (just look on Amazon) which will meet the needs of many players very well – and for many years. If you can find and afford a good teacher in the flesh or online, you are unusually fortunate – and you may find that the teacher will recommend (as aids to learning material and techniques) the very books that some foro members seem to be so sniffy about.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 16 2016 16:24:03
 
31special

 

Posts: 19
Joined: Dec. 9 2009
 

RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (in reply to Flamencito

Hello Flamencito,

quote:

Another good thing might be to record your playing and post it here on the foro. I am pretty sure you will get some very valuable feedback on that!


Thanks for the reply. I was about to ask the same question on the forum. I'm currently practicing the alzapua technique at the moment using Oscar Herrero's book. I pasted a sample of the exercise here.

If I upload a link to a small video of me practicing the technique, people on this forum will be able to give feedback? I think that's a great idea. I want to make sure my right hand movement is moving the way is supposed to for this technique.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 16 2016 19:42:47
 
31special

 

Posts: 19
Joined: Dec. 9 2009
 

RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (in reply to Paul Magnussen

quote:

Don’t panic — Vicente is sounding more like Jesse every year


Hello Paul Magnussen,

I like some of Jesse Cook's songs, specially the songs from the The Blue Guitar Sessions album. I see his music as world music, not flamenco music.

You say Vicente is sounding more like Jesse because he is out of practice or because his album Tierra ?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 16 2016 19:51:17
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1762
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (in reply to 31special

Because his recordings have been sliding away from Flamenco towards World Music (or musak, if you woke up with a bad liver) for years. (Probably been badgered by his record company to “broaden his appeal”, like all niche stars from Juan Serrano to B.B. King.)

But, like Manolo Caracol, he can still produce the goods when he feels like it.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 17 2016 0:21:10
 
chester

Posts: 842
Joined: Oct. 29 2010
 

RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (in reply to 31special

quote:

If I upload a link to a small video of me practicing the technique, people on this forum will be able to give feedback? I think that's a great idea. I want to make sure my right hand movement is moving the way is supposed to for this technique.

Sure! I'm personally guaranteeing at least one response
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 17 2016 0:23:02
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

I'm currently practicing the alzapua technique at the moment using Oscar Herrero's book. I pasted a sample of the exercise here.

I've never seen an alzapua exercise like that. Alzapua is usually chords and single notes between your chords all thumb. I suppose if you're super beginner it's a good way to get your thumb moving.
Post it! I guarantee I'll give you a response and some guidance, and if my guidance sucks, someone out there won't be able to handle it and they'll chime in.

_____________________________

\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 17 2016 0:35:31
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3308
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (in reply to Paul Magnussen

quote:

Because his [Vicente Amigo's] recordings have been sliding away from Flamenco towards World Music (or musak, if you woke up with a bad liver) for years.


Exactly. I caught hell on the Foro for posting the following in January of this year: "Vicente Amigo is neither up to the standards of the past greats--Sabicas, Paco de Lucia, et.al,--nor the current up and comers like Antonio Rey. Vicente Amigo is an anodyne guitarist who is competent, but not great. His playing is the flamenco equivalent of elevator music."

That he has the capacity to rise above all that is irrelevant if he doesn't.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 17 2016 1:04:16
 
chester

Posts: 842
Joined: Oct. 29 2010
 

RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

Vicente Amigo is an anodyne guitarist who is competent, but not great.

Just curious - what recordings are you basing this assertion on?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 17 2016 1:25:18
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

anodyne

That's not the worst adjective to describe his playing.
For me, when he's on he's ON and when he's boring he's BOOORING. His buleriaseses are incredible and I really enjoyed that album with El Pele.

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\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 17 2016 1:42:53
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (in reply to Ricardo

Amigo would be great if he would make a recording with as old fashioned of a singer as he could find and play less frilly. But as has been said, his production company wants to sell 'world music' and he has a market niche there now. Money puts kids through college and pays mortgages.

Probably seeing him play with a singer in a private setting would be great, probably even mind blowing, but his recordings have little interest for me beyond listening a few times and then spinning one occasionally if I have insomnia. That reminds me to read a book.

He is no doubt a great guitarist and he added something to the language modern guitar. I just don't see him reinventing himself in a way that would be very risky, but maybe he will yet surprise. Some people love his work as is, lately I find Melchor de Marchena's playing to be quite mind blowing.

Flamenco is like a building with a whole bunch of windows, and each window might have an interesting scene, but you can't in one life look in all the windows. So you decide which part of the edifice you want to explore. It's also fair to say parts of the building that look ugly to you are, well ugly.

-------------------

The other day I was looking at some artists work who is having a show in the US. I said I did not like it, that it reminded me of a Fruit of the Loom underwear commercial on TV about 35 years ago. Someone then told me if would only read about the artist and get th reasons behind why they did what they did I would change my mind and see it. Kind of not understanding that I was not against the artist personally, or had a lack of visual acuity or intellectual backing about the kind of work he makes, it's just that I don't like it. It's not my thing mainly because it is furry and fuzzy and made of furry fuzzy textiles. It simply repels me at a tactile level. Nothing more, nothing less.

It's possible my sensibility will change, and I might seek out looking at that work in two three years, because we do change and change back in terms of aesthetic values we like. Some music is fuzzy and cloying, some music is tough and redemptive.

It's ok not to like stuff. And you don't owe anyone an exegesis on why you don't fancy something.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 17 2016 1:59:49
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1762
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (in reply to estebanana

quote:

Probably seeing [Vicente] play with a singer in a private setting would be great, probably even mind blowing


Exactly so.

Here he is with Pele in 1983, in the Fonda Maestre in Córdoba. He blew my mind out through my eyeballs; he would have been sixteen.

At the rear are Jingle (whom some may know); and Miguel Iven, later a noted flamenco recording artist in Germany.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 17 2016 5:26:00
 
JasonM

Posts: 1806
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (in reply to 31special

Bill has already been previously chastised for his comments on VA ;)

Maybe the comment about snobbery was directed at "One must listen to Cante" etc, play for dancers, pretend to be born a gitano etc.
I think your training path should be to play what you are interested in. If you are into Vicente's music, then learn it, or try to do your best. also I would add to find a GOOD teacher or one that is in line with the style your after. If you want to play modern stuff then a teacher showing you Sabicas stuff might not be the best use of your time. I actually started off with chuck keyword book too. And I was listening to Gerardo Nunez. The two don't mesh. This was my experience. It wasn't until I found a teacher like Ricardo that things finally started to be revealed.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 17 2016 14:04:45
 
Piwin

Posts: 3394
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (in reply to 31special

Quite a few people will be happy to give feedback. If only because most of us are probably tired of criticizing our own technique in front of the mirror and will welcome the opportunity to look at some else's

@Leñador
Those exercises are actually pretty good. Simple but good. They help focus on getting a the thumb movement as precise as possible and also the double downward thumb movement which comes up every now and again in an alzapua. Without mentioning that thumb upstroke on one string. Comes in handy in bulerias.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 17 2016 14:53:06
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13336
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

quote:

Because his [Vicente Amigo's] recordings have been sliding away from Flamenco towards World Music (or musak, if you woke up with a bad liver) for years.


Exactly. I caught hell on the Foro for posting the following in January of this year: "Vicente Amigo is neither up to the standards of the past greats--Sabicas, Paco de Lucia, et.al,--nor the current up and comers like Antonio Rey. Vicente Amigo is an anodyne guitarist who is competent, but not great. His playing is the flamenco equivalent of elevator music."

That he has the capacity to rise above all that is irrelevant if he doesn't.

Bill


Since you brought it up again, Sabicas for me had some things that are indulgent and flashy guitar wise, when he wasn't just ripping off Montoya. Sort of kept the larger guitar genre of Segovia fans and guitar enthusiasts a bit ignorant of the artistic depth of flamenco (along with C. Montoya who was sometimes marketed along with Sabicas and friends). Doesn't mean that there is not more to it that is enjoyable and useful to learn. Vicente Amigo however has some very profound and deep things along with his innovations that really inspired flamencos of all ages, including the mentioned PDL. His early cante accompaniments were very influential and his composition for Camaron has him forever in gypsy sainthood status. New folks like Rey are quote his falsetas note by note in cases that are not just the general same vibe. He is not, however an evolving artist (such as PDL or Sanlucar) so we don't need to look to his later works for the more innovative things. Call it boring if one wants, but Sabicas played the same falsetas into the late 80's as he did in the 50's and out of respect, no body called it "boring" that was a flamenco enthusiast. V. Amigo deserves same respect IMO.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 17 2016 16:29:25
 
JasonM

Posts: 1806
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Flamenco Guitar Player Training Path (in reply to Ricardo

Speaking of Antonio Rey borrowing from Vicente, just look at this video of Rey at Solera Flamenca

https://youtu.be/bC1azaVXKL4

The intro he plays is almost the same as VA's tarranta with that dimished scale even resolving on the same minor inversion like VA does live.

I've thought the same thing about VA in terms of Evolution when you compare him to Paco. I think his next album will be a nice change back to solid flamenco, but I don't expect to something completely different in style, other than Palos he has not recorded in the past.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 17 2016 16:54:18
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