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top doming, neck angle and relief
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benros
Posts: 144
Joined: Aug. 27 2016
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top doming, neck angle and relief
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hey guys, im building my first two flamencas at the moment and would like to discuss with you some questions i have about the doming of the top, the neck angle and the tapering of the fingerboard in relation to each other or i.o.w. all the different crucial points to consider to come out with a playable flamenco setup. my reference instrument is a domingo esteso blanca replica, very light build (only 1150 gr. with mechanical tuners), with a huge dome (circa 5mm under the bridge) and 2 mm neck angle and slightly tapered fingerboard. the action and the bridge is under 7mm but 3.5 mm at the 12th fret (low e) and seems to me that i would come up with a more playable action at the 12th fret if i would build either without neck angle or with less doming. years ago i have read an gal article from eugene clark about his building style (building spanish guitars was the title, i guess) which seemed to me very radical, but straight forward and plausible in many ways. clark says there, that the old builders (torres, santos hernandez, domingo esteso etc.) build with big domes but without neck angle and fingetboardtapering (in difference to the most newer spanish builders, which build nearly without doming and therefore with neckangle). but i cant find the article anymore and cant remember what he said about the hight of the doming. what i can remember is, that he said, that the doming is a crucial point. so, what are your thoughts/experiences on/about that? how much doming and/or neck angle do you build with? greetings, ben p.s.: i would like to come up with a 7-8mm action at the bridge and 2.5-3 mm at the 12th fret.
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Date Sep. 1 2016 9:53:59
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benros
Posts: 144
Joined: Aug. 27 2016
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RE: top doming, neck angle and relief (in reply to benros)
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thank you tom and john for your responses. tom, i have seen the gal barbero plan drawn by mr. brune some time ago and im pretty sure, that there is no information about the doming of the soundboard in it. is there information about it in the reyes plan you have drawn? anyway, i really would appreciate to hear, what you have to say about this topic. thank you john for sharing your knowledge. yes, i meant the taper from nut to soundhole. i see that the prominent dome plus the normal neck angle/deflection is the reason for the 3.5 mm at the 12th fret. i like the doming, cause the domed guitars ive heared and played have a very breathing, pumping, open and raw sound, very good playability and are very responsive, alive. what clark suggests in his article, is that the oldschool builders have built without any neck deflection or fingerboardtaper, just with soundboard doming and thats the way he builds too. my interest is, is it possible to build this way without coming up with a guitar with too much buzzing? what kind of setup do you get with your 3mm dome/1.5-2mm deflection combination? any other thoughts, suggestions? greetings, ben
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Date Sep. 1 2016 20:58:28
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jshelton5040
Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
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RE: top doming, neck angle and relief (in reply to benros)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benros i like the doming, cause the domed guitars ive heared and played have a very breathing, pumping, open and raw sound, very good playability and are very responsive, alive. what clark suggests in his article, is that the oldschool builders have built without any neck deflection or fingerboardtaper, just with soundboard doming and thats the way he builds too. my interest is, is it possible to build this way without coming up with a guitar with too much buzzing? what kind of setup do you get with your 3mm dome/1.5-2mm deflection combination? any other thoughts, suggestions? greetings, ben What's "too much buzzing"? I played and taught flamenco guitar professionally for over 40 years and can say that players have different opinions about what is too much buzzing. We try to set our guitars about 2.8mm at the 12th fret sixth string. I can't recall one that was over that measurement and they seem to play fine in my opinion. We built guitars with essentially flat tops with lots of taper for many years and were happy with the results. The guitars had very stiff right hand action, excellent trebles but rather weak basses. We found that customers preferred a more robust voice (more bass and mid range) and more limber right hand action so we switched to a domed top. After a lot of experimenting with top thickness, amount of dome, bracing, etc. we're very happy with the current design. I think the current guitars are more uniform and overall better than our earlier ones.
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Date Sep. 1 2016 23:57:49
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benros
Posts: 144
Joined: Aug. 27 2016
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RE: top doming, neck angle and relief (in reply to benros)
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after what have been said so far, it seems to me, that flattop and domed top flamencas are two different approaches, from which the domed is the more oldschool traditional style, the flattop the modern approach. big dome without neckangle as the one extreme, flattop with big neckangle, the other one and in between mixtures of both (slightly domed tops plus moderate neck angles). the domed top flamencas which i have seen so far where also much thinner build, very light guitars (all not much more than 1kg weight), also mostly smaller dimensioned and with very deep tuned body resonance (zero tone? i dont know the right word in english), the best were at 'e'. john, sure, your right, what is too much depends on personal preference. for me, too much buzzing means, that i cant play the guitar with moderate attack without buzzing. echi, how much neckangle do you need with your slightly domed top? do you taper the fingerboard? what are your setup outcomes? tom, you build flattops with equally thicknessed fingerboards. how much neckangle do you need, to get the right setup? do you build without any relief at the basstringside of the fingerboard? you suggested, that the flattop/modern approach is more affine to what guitarists look for today? what, would you say, are the main differences of both building styles in terms of sound and playability? what are the advantages of the flattop flamencas over the domed ones? is there someone out there you builds with more than 3mm dome? thank you all?
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Date Sep. 3 2016 20:57:10
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Tom Blackshear
Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
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RE: top doming, neck angle and relief (in reply to benros)
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quote:
tom, you build flattops with equally thicknessed fingerboards. how much neckangle do you need, to get the right setup? do you build without any relief at the basstringside of the fingerboard? you suggested, that the flattop/modern approach is more affine to what guitarists look for today? what, would you say, are the main differences of both building styles in terms of sound and playability? I try for about 2.5 MM angle from the nut, but you have to center the box on a flat level to the top edge of the sound hole. I relieve the bass side a little at the 7th fret and taper it toward the nut and then toward the 10th fret, and leave the treble fairly flat.This technique helps eliminate a certain amount of string buzz on the bass side. Dome is OK but I think it takes more finesse to get the articulation correct. I get more top flap with a flat top, and this seems to quicken the picado and thumb work, which provides a certain pull for alzapua; especially on the treble side. Dome tops have a tendency to cause the strings to bounce but this can be controlled by expert fine tuning, which is not a problem for me, but it might be for others who are not familiar with how to manage it. If you are looking for a deeper bass end, then this is easily managed with a flat top, without having to create a booming sound.
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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
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Date Sep. 3 2016 21:57:52
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estebanana
Posts: 9396
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: top doming, neck angle and relief (in reply to jshelton5040)
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quote:
Some people like a domed tops and some don't. We've built both ways and prefer about 3mm dome at the bridge. This allows a deflection of about 1.5-2mm. If the deflection is not perfect a slight tapering of the fingerboard can be used to make sure the action is perfect. TRUE quote:
...what clark suggests in his article, is that the oldschool builders have built without any neck deflection or fingerboardtaper, just with soundboard doming FALSE quote:
While I understand the discussion reagarding the dome, I am surprised nobody mentioned that the target setup is achieve via the SOLERA when you attach the neck and back to the top. My understanding of this topic was that it was this procedure that determined how things would turn out, and that hitting 7mm (or any exact number) precisely is not normally possible, but most luthiers claim .5 mm +/- (with 3mm or less at 12th the goal). Any fine adjustments would had to be done with shaving or otherwise altering the fingerboard after this point. TRUE quote:
I don't believe that the Brune Barbero plan is good for a beginner. FALSE quote:
Not exactly correct. The solera is the scooped out form where the top is held while gluing bracing. Some people also set the neck angle and glue the sides and back on the solera but not everyone. For convenience we use two other jigs, one for gluing the sides and neck to the top and another for gluing the back. TRUE quote:
that flattop and domed top flamencas are two different approaches, from which the domed is the more oldschool traditional style, the flattop the modern approach FALSE quote:
Dome tops have a tendency to cause the strings to bounce but this can be controlled by expert fine tuning, FALSE
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Date Sep. 5 2016 1:51:08
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