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itoprover

Posts: 339
Joined: Jan. 3 2006
From: Ottawa, ON

Strings for longer scale flamencos 

Hi guys, what strings would you recommend for longer scale guitar (660-670) mm. I know it does not make much difference when capoed but I have been playing a lot without a capo lately..

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Ilia
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 23 2016 13:36:32
 
RobJe

 

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Strings for longer scale flamencos (in reply to itoprover

One thing to remember is that the longer the scale length, the higher the tension is for the same string tuned to the same pitch. Many players find this counterintuitive and incorrectly believe that longer scales must have " high tension" strings. Only you will be able to tell what the best tension is for your guitar as we don't get to play it!

If you search you will find plenty of threads that deal with the general issue of string choice and while you won't find much agreement you might find some help in narrowing down your choice. In my experience you have to start with how your guitar sounds and feels rather than any of its measurements.

When people ask me for advice on strings I tell them to get reasonably priced standard tension strings of recognised quality - that probably means D'Addario Ej45s. If you don't like the outcome, don't feed the hungry brute on a diet of varied and increasingly expensive strings in the hope that it will improve. It won't! In this case it is better to save your money for a better guitar. If you do like what you get with the reasonably priced strings you can try to make small improvements in aspects such as tone and feel by experimenting with other strings. The aspects that you want improve are person and guitar specific and nobody can do it for you.

Rob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 24 2016 8:54:09
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14373
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Strings for longer scale flamencos (in reply to itoprover

quote:

ORIGINAL: itoprover

Hi guys, what strings would you recommend for longer scale guitar (660-670) mm. I know it does not make much difference when capoed but I have been playing a lot without a capo lately..


All things equal, sure as mentioned lower tension string. But honestly, all things are NOT equal guitar to guitar. It's much much more about ACTION than scale length. IMO. I need higher tension on the soft action guitars plain and simple. I use Labella 820 on my 670mm scale sobrinos de esteso and on my 650 Conde negra...but no good on the 660 Sanchis, I have to use luthier or some other with harder tension.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 24 2016 15:25:49
 
itoprover

Posts: 339
Joined: Jan. 3 2006
From: Ottawa, ON

RE: Strings for longer scale flamencos (in reply to itoprover

Hey thanks for your answers guys, I think I will go with lowering the action on the bass side a little bit, its one of these longer scale Conde blancas from the 80s, I tried luthier 20 basses / ej 45 trebles combination and it still feels a bit stiff in basses, trebles are ok but ej45 are pretty colorless. Do you know which basses have slightly lower tension then luthier 20?

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Ilia
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 28 2016 20:02:33
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14373
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Strings for longer scale flamencos (in reply to itoprover

La Bella 820 red or black and there is also a clear version I think called 426 or something. (EDIT 427)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 29 2016 10:41:48
 
RobJe

 

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Strings for longer scale flamencos (in reply to itoprover

quote:

I think I will go with lowering the action on the bass side a little bit, its one of these longer scale Conde blancas from the 80s, I tried luthier 20 basses / ej 45 trebles combination and it still feels a bit stiff in basses, trebles are ok but ej45 are pretty colorless. Do you know which basses have slightly lower tension then luthier 20?




Two issues here the feel (stiff bases) and the sound (colourless trebles). Choice of strings can make some difference but not work miracles. I always prioritise feel. Lowering the action could decrease the volume a bit. Savarez Corum bases (expensive) are much more flexible out of the packet than traditional (and cheaper) strings. I sometimes think that I can detect the difference when the guitar is strung up but it is marginal on my guitars. I like Corum bases nevertheless.

Good luck with your research.

Rob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 29 2016 15:27:11
 
itoprover

Posts: 339
Joined: Jan. 3 2006
From: Ottawa, ON

RE: Strings for longer scale flamencos (in reply to itoprover

Thanks for suggestion Ricardo, definitely will give them a try. Honestly I did not realize La Bella 427 and 820 basses are lower in tension then Luthier 20..

Rob: trebles are actually great on this guitar, they sounded so nice and melodic with La Bella 2001 Classical medium trebles but little too tense for my personal taste.. I think EJ 45 trebles are just blah on most guitars - they are ok but not great. I will go with La Bella 820B or Savarez New Crystal for trebles since they have the same tension as EJ45. I don't think I want to try Corum as they die too fast on 650 and probably will die even faster on a longer scale plus the bass tone they produce is often too excessive on Madrid style guitars, they sound much nicer on lighter Granada style guitars though. Also I don't actually mind loosing some volume on this particular instrument since it is way too loud and punchy in mid range and I almost never play unamplified except for practicing at home..

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Ilia
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 29 2016 16:00:39
 
mellowmel

 

Posts: 85
Joined: Aug. 31 2006
 

RE: Strings for longer scale flamencos (in reply to itoprover

Luthier 20s is great for my longest scale guitar at 660 which is a Jose Romero blanca.
My Jesus de Jimenez blanca is a killer with Luthier 30s at 655 scale and my Andy Culpepper is simply perfection using 20s basses and J45 trebles. As you can see, it really depends on the guitar and also the players' fingers.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 6 2016 1:48:19
 
itoprover

Posts: 339
Joined: Jan. 3 2006
From: Ottawa, ON

RE: Strings for longer scale flamencos (in reply to mellowmel

I have not changed the stings yet, waiting for my order to arrive.. Luthier 20 basses are half-dead now after 2 weeks, they still feel stiffer than my other 650mm guitars
but surprisingly EJ45 trebles "broke-in" and sound pretty sweet now. I will let you guys know once I change to La Bella 427 basses / Savarez New Crystal trebs.

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Ilia
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 7 2016 13:08:19
 
SephardRick

Posts: 358
Joined: Apr. 11 2014
 

RE: Strings for longer scale flamencos (in reply to itoprover

Tailoring the strings is a hit and miss process. When finding the right combination for you own personal tone and feel can be satisfying.

For example, I too find the Luthier 20 trebles a very musical string, along with LaBella 820's. But, the basses of the Luthier 20's do feel a bit stiff and sound slightly metallic. The LaBella's basses aren't quite stiff enough. So, I end up using a completely different set of bass string, the D'Addario EJ45. For bass strings they have just the right feel for me, along with deeper tone. Unfortunately, the EJ45 trebles are so bland. IMHO.

Therefore, you might try buying one brand's set of trebles and another brand's set of bass strings. It cuts the cost of experimenting in half, instead of buying a complete set of string. Also, keep notes when tailoring strings if you have a lot guitars. After a few months you tend to forget which string and gauges you used each guitar.

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Rick
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 7 2016 14:01:38
 
timoteo

 

Posts: 219
Joined: Jun. 22 2012
From: Seattle, USA

RE: Strings for longer scale flamencos (in reply to itoprover

@itoprover, you say:
quote:

trebles are actually great on this guitar, they sounded so nice and melodic with La Bella 2001 Classical medium trebles but little too tense for my personal taste..


So why don't you just try a lower tension version of the 2001 Classical? They come in 5 different tensions. That seems easier to me than trying the dozen different suggestions above... And sticking with the same strings means the only thing you're varying is the tension, which really helps you see how the tension affects the sound and feel of your guitar.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 8 2016 0:22:51
 
itoprover

Posts: 339
Joined: Jan. 3 2006
From: Ottawa, ON

RE: Strings for longer scale flamencos (in reply to itoprover

Timoteo: Since it looks like their med-high is similar to Luthier 20 tension-wise, in reality I am down to 2 tensions for La Bella: medium which I am going to try as soon as I get them, and light which I think would be way too loose on most of the guitars

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Ilia
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 8 2016 12:27:46
 
itoprover

Posts: 339
Joined: Jan. 3 2006
From: Ottawa, ON

RE: Strings for longer scale flamencos (in reply to itoprover

Update - full set of La Bella 427 sounds and plays great on this guitar (88 Conde, 660mm), hopefully they will not die too fast :)

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Ilia
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 4 2016 18:25:07
 
JasonM

Posts: 2020
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Strings for longer scale flamencos (in reply to itoprover

How are the la Bella 427 trebles? I compared the specs to EJ45 trebbles and they are the same gauge but the basses are a little heavier. Do the 427's tebbles feel stiffer?

I have a 660 Sanchis and find the tension on the trebles too light but the bass strings are ok with EJ45 normal tension.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 9 2016 2:19:57
 
itoprover

Posts: 339
Joined: Jan. 3 2006
From: Ottawa, ON

RE: Strings for longer scale flamencos (in reply to itoprover

I don't think 427 trebles feel stiffer but they sound more percussive and bright

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Ilia
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 9 2016 16:04:05
 
JasonM

Posts: 2020
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Strings for longer scale flamencos (in reply to itoprover

Awesome. Thanks for the feedback I think I'll order a set. I really like the d'addario EXP basses because they last and I'm too lazy to change strings
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 9 2016 16:49:51
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Strings for longer scale flamencos (in reply to itoprover

My favourite combo is very similar to what you're describing. D'Addario, either Dynacore or EXP normal tensions basses plus high tension trebles or normal tension carbon ones (45FF).

The Flamenco set has the high tension trebles and normal tension basses but I think that those composite basses are not that good.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 9 2016 17:20:46
 
JasonM

Posts: 2020
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Strings for longer scale flamencos (in reply to Sr. Martins

i was wondering about those dynocore strings. What about their titanium trebbles?

Ricardo, I had no idea you used high tension on your sanchis. I remember playing it years ago and thought it felt great. But I think I tried a set of d addario hard tensions on mine a while ago and remember the basses were stiff
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 9 2016 17:39:24
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Strings for longer scale flamencos (in reply to JasonM

quote:

i was wondering about those dynocore strings. What about their titanium trebbles?


I don't like those. Too loose.

The carbon set also comes with Dynacore basses.

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"Ya no me conoce el sol, porque yo duermo de dia"
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 9 2016 17:46:53
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14373
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Strings for longer scale flamencos (in reply to JasonM

quote:

ORIGINAL: JasonM

i was wondering about those dynocore strings. What about their titanium trebbles?

Ricardo, I had no idea you used high tension on your sanchis. I remember playing it years ago and thought it felt great. But I think I tried a set of d addario hard tensions on mine a while ago and remember the basses were stiff


I don't. I use a different BRAND...high low tension distinction differ brand to brand. In the end it's a packaging label like "red" or "blue" or "gold" etc. What you liked was the guitar set up PLUS string type.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 10 2016 13:30:50
 
JasonM

Posts: 2020
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Strings for longer scale flamencos (in reply to Ricardo

But I though that all sanchis were exactly the same set up done by robots.

Thanks. I'll try out some medium hard luthiers as well.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 10 2016 17:11:07
 
RobJe

 

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Strings for longer scale flamencos (in reply to itoprover

Just wondering … are all clear nylon treble strings made from the same material? If so, the only potential differences between brands would be due to diameter, rectification and care in selection for constant diameter.

Rob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 10 2016 20:23:30
 
Njål Bendixen

 

Posts: 65
Joined: Aug. 25 2016
 

RE: Strings for longer scale flamencos (in reply to itoprover

All European string makers use nylon from the same factory, so European guitar string brands will all have this in common. All American string manufacturers us nylon from the same American factory, so all American nylons strings will have something in common. If this is true I know not, but I have been told this by Tom Neitzert, who is extremely knowledgeable about strings. If this is true then the choise is European vs American, as far as trebles are concerned.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 11 2016 9:27:09
 
RobJe

 

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Strings for longer scale flamencos (in reply to Njål Bendixen

I have no firm information - manufacturers would probably not want to tell us if their strings were exactly the same as those of a rival. However there seems to be a possibility that la Bella 427 and EJ45 trebles are the same material, same diameter, same tension and possibly even extruded from the same machine.

Investigating the best strings for a guitar can be expensive and unreliable quest given the subjective nature of the exercise and the annoying tendency of guitars to sound and feel different on different days with the same strings on. It means that perceived differences can be misleading.

I stick by my plan given in an earlier post. Could take about a year!

Rob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 11 2016 15:09:24
 
itoprover

Posts: 339
Joined: Jan. 3 2006
From: Ottawa, ON

RE: Strings for longer scale flamencos (in reply to RobJe

I don't know guys - to me La Bella 427 and EJ45 are different in both feel and sound, Savarez New Crystal are closer to EJ45 in feel and closer to 427 in sound


It looks like they are slightly different in both diameter and tension (check out the breakdown table in the middle of the page here):

427:
https://www.stringsbymail.com/la-bella-427-pacesetter-elite-mt-classical-guitar-strings-full-set-644.html

EJ45:
https://www.stringsbymail.com/daddario-ej45-pro-arte-nt-classical-guitar-strings-full-set-10.html

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Ilia
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 11 2016 15:18:48
 
RobJe

 

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Strings for longer scale flamencos (in reply to itoprover

Interesting. I guess the diameters of the trebles are the same but one has been corrected to three decimal places. Tension is a less reliable piece of data because it depends on the scale length on which it was measured. I don't want to make a big deal of this - it was just something that intrigued me.

I find judging small differences very difficult, especially as it takes a day or so for strings to settle down when you change them (even when used). I just got a great bargain Reyes blanca - I have dreamt of this for many years. I put EJ45s on and I can't imagine that anything would make it sound and feel better. My 65 Conde is strung up with the same kind. Experiments with other guitars took me to Savages Corum Alliance.

Good luck with your experiments. Don't spend too much money!

Rob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 11 2016 16:43:28
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3394
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Strings for longer scale flamencos (in reply to Njål Bendixen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Njål Bendixen

All European string makers use nylon from the same factory, so European guitar string brands will all have this in common. All American string manufacturers us nylon from the same American factory, so all American nylons strings will have something in common. If this is true I know not, but I have been told this by Tom Neitzert, who is extremely knowledgeable about strings. If this is true then the choise is European vs American, as far as trebles are concerned.


This web page

http://www.classicalguitarbuilder.com/march_news/October_Newsletter.html

says that
quote:

If you want to explore further try some rectified nylon trebles like the J29, J30 and J31 sets by D'Addario to compare the feel of rectified nylon to clear nylon guitar strings. The J29 - J31's are made with the old standard Dupont nylon and have a wonderful tone and feel.


"Nylon" polymer can have at least three different chemical compositions, and the basic polymer can be mixed with a considerable variety of substances.The resulting product can be treated in various ways to alter its properties.

This web page

http://www.matweb.com/search/GetMatlsByTradename.aspx?tn=Zytel®

lists 241 different nylon materials from Dupont.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 11 2016 18:11:18
 
JasonM

Posts: 2020
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Strings for longer scale flamencos (in reply to RobJe

Vicente Amigo said in an interview that he uses EJ45's "Normal Voltage" on his Reyes Blanca. I imagine anything will sound great on a Reyes.

Yes tension is relative. That's why I look at string gauge numbers for an idea of tension.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 11 2016 19:40:42
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Strings for longer scale flamencos (in reply to JasonM

quote:

Vicente Amigo said in an interview that he uses EJ45's "Normal Voltage" on his Reyes Blanca.


That's too literal

Voltage = "Tensión"

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"Ya no me conoce el sol, porque yo duermo de dia"
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 11 2016 19:46:41
 
JasonM

Posts: 2020
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Strings for longer scale flamencos (in reply to Sr. Martins

Voltage = electromotive force potential of charge through the strings.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 12 2016 1:15:57
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