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Posts: 3467
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Flamenco in music conservatories? (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
I actually saw that version of Carmen in 2014 while on a gig in Apia, Samoa. It was presented on a TV classic movie series originating out of Auckland, New Zealand. Very good indeed.
Regarding the dance academy in Madrid that you mentioned, I did not mean to imply that dance academies teaching flamenco do not exist or that no flamenco dancers ever attend conservatories. My point was that I don't think most flamenco dancers performing in Andalucia or other parts of Spain, as well as those performing in the Washington, DC region or other parts of the world, learn their art in dance conservatories, as one comment above suggested. Intuitively I suspect most flamenco dancers learn their art from professional dancers who teach, and from friends and mentors who dance.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: Flamenco in music conservatories? (in reply to BarkellWH)
I didn’t make myself clear. I didn’t mean that MOST dancers learn in dance academies. I have no idea of the proportion. It has been my impression, however, that conservatory teaching is more established in the world of flamenco dancing than that of flamenco guitar. The thread has raised the question of whether the idea of conservatory teaching is inimical to flamenco.
RE: Flamenco in music conservatories? (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
quote:
I believe there still is in Madrid a rather large flamenco dance academy in the Calle Amor de Dios. It was (still is?) famous throughout the whole country.
I have never been there myself, so my info is second hand at best, though I do know people who have studied there etc.
I don't get the impression it is an academy in the sense of a university with professors and handing out degrees or diplomas etc., more a large warehouse converted into studios with various teachers and classes etc.
Also I think it has moved a while ago, so although it kept it's name, it is no longer on the street of the same name.
if a couple of teachers get together and hire a space with a couple of studios they can call it an "academy" - I don't think that's anywhere near the same level of academia or formality as a university type conservatory.
RE: Flamenco in music conservatories? (in reply to payaso)
quote:
The thread has raised the question of whether the idea of conservatory teaching is inimical to flamenco.
Every professional has to study and learn. In Spain there are schools for baile, guitarra, toreo.
In every case some students come out stiff, as if they were still practising technique or toreo de salon. But the really talented keep on learning, usually by private classes with a recognised maestro (who was once a beginner), then working alone or in a recognised company.
The very best become maestros with an individual style. The rest fall by the wayside.
Posts: 3446
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: Flamenco in music conservatories? (in reply to mark indigo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: mark indigo
quote:
I believe there still is in Madrid a rather large flamenco dance academy in the Calle Amor de Dios. It was (still is?) famous throughout the whole country.
I don't get the impression it is an academy in the sense of a university with professors and handing out degrees or diplomas etc., more a large warehouse converted into studios with various teachers and classes etc.
Also I think it has moved a while ago, so although it kept it's name, it is no longer on the street of the same name.
if a couple of teachers get together and hire a space with a couple of studios they can call it an "academy" - I don't think that's anywhere near the same level of academia or formality as a university type conservatory.
Right. I went there a few times with a friend who played for classes. I was not aware of any "academic" work. It was a big dance studio with several rooms, quite a few teachers and classes at various levels. They might have given some sort of certificate for completing a given level, but it was certainly not like a degree from a conservatory.
Posts: 3467
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Flamenco in music conservatories? (in reply to BarkellWH)
It would appear that the comments in this thread bear out the observation that flamenco dancers by and large do not learn their art in dance conservatories, as the term "conservatory" is commonly understood and defined. They learn their art from professional dancers who teach and mentor, whether individually or clustered under the term "academy," such as Richard's example in Madrid. But these are not conservatories or academic institutions.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: Flamenco in music conservatories? (in reply to BarkellWH)
There's a lot in this conversation I'm not understanding. Is it perhaps somewhat US-centric? Where I come from, teachers in conservatory are professional musicians. The conservatory is not necessarily "academic", at least not in the sense of a higher-education institution. It's open to younger ages as well and delivers its own set of diplomas that aren't the same as University diplomas. In other words, you don't go to a conservatory to get a phD, you go there to become a professional musician. It is true that they may differ from other schools/academies/etc. in that they have exams and/or deliver State-recognized diplomas. However, some (agreed, not many, but still some) flamenco schools/academies/etc. in Spain deliver diplomas that are recognized by the State or by the "regional" authorities. And some also have pretty stringent exams, whether they deliver a proper diploma or not. And more and more they offer music theory classes. There's a lot more going on than just "formal conservatory" on the hand and "guitarist trying to make a living, renting a room and calling it an academy" on the other. And, whatever the type of teaching environment, it's like Morante said. Some (many) will come out stiff, and only a few will make it as recognized professionals.
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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
RE: Flamenco in music conservatories? (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
Amor de Dios is alive and well. Their current location is just down the street from their former site. I don't know how these observations may have factored into to their decision, but they had received many complaints from neighbours in the old site and in the new they have expanded and modernized some of their equipment.
_____________________________
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Flamenco in music conservatories? (in reply to Piwin)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Piwin
There's a lot in this conversation I'm not understanding. Is it perhaps somewhat US-centric? Where I come from, teachers in conservatory are professional musicians. The conservatory is not necessarily "academic", at least not in the sense of a higher-education institution. It's open to younger ages as well and delivers its own set of diplomas that aren't the same as University diplomas. In other words, you don't go to a conservatory to get a phD, you go there to become a professional musician. It is true that they may differ from other schools/academies/etc. in that they have exams and/or deliver State-recognized diplomas. However, some (agreed, not many, but still some) flamenco schools/academies/etc. in Spain deliver diplomas that are recognized by the State or by the "regional" authorities. And some also have pretty stringent exams, whether they deliver a proper diploma or not. And more and more they offer music theory classes. There's a lot more going on than just "formal conservatory" on the hand and "guitarist trying to make a living, renting a room and calling it an academy" on the other. And, whatever the type of teaching environment, it's like Morante said. Some (many) will come out stiff, and only a few will make it as recognized professionals.
Yes, at least in my case I was referring to both music programs offered in University AND the proper conservatory that usually offers art and dance courses, not only music. In my experience they are not much different in the sense that the Univeristy professor is also a professional musician whether or not they perform often. Typically both University or Conservatory will have that "famous" professor that attracts students yet, he or she is absent 90% of the time touring or performing somewhere. In the end, regardless what the form of achievement is used for recognition, it is about the interactions going on with the environment. High caliber students will producer better educated and successful graduates regardless of the teachers and methods. But as an example about the Rotterdam famous conservatory for flamenco guitar established by P. Peña (arguably the most important example as per this topic), talking with both students and teachers from there, it confirms my suspicion that it is not unlike the university situation. Academic in the sense you have students working toward exams and such. The consensus was "there you do learn how to play guitar, but you don't learn about 'flamenco'".... Basically that is right at the heart of this discussion.
I lean towards the opposite of the Mr. Miyagi theory, "no such thing as bad student, only bad teacher...". For me it is ALL about the student and how he or she can cut through and utilize the tools and discard the non efficient stuff to get what they need to advance. In that regard, you just can't beat the old traditional way of going to Andalucia and live with the gitanos type thing.
RE: Flamenco in music conservatories? (in reply to Ricardo)
Thanks for explaining that.
quote:
In that regard, you just can't beat the old traditional way of going to Andalucia and live with the gitanos type thing.
For sure, but isn't that just the same as for any kind of music, i.e. you really have to put yourself out there, dive in and play in "real life" situations to get any good at it? I mean if you're studying jazz in a conservatory but never jam, you'll probably not get very far. The issue with the conservatory in Rotterdam is that it's in Rotterdam so you don't really have that option to play at the pena. But if it were in flamenco territory, like the one in Cordoba, I think a conservatory could add at least some value for students. I have a hard time seeing how it could be detrimental to them. At the very least it provides them with several tools they can choose from to learn and that may be difficult to come by elsewhere. And then, like you said, it's up to the students to cut through the material and keep what they need.
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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
Posts: 3467
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Flamenco in music conservatories? (in reply to Piwin)
quote:
Amor de Dios is alive and well. Their current location is just down the street from their former site.
The "acadamy" on Amor de Dios in Madrid, mentioned by you, Richard, and Mark Indigo, sounds like your normal flamenco studio with a stable of teachers of guitar, dance and, perhaps, cante. The term "conservatory" probably should not have been used in this thread. In Spanish the term "conservatorio" has the same meaning as it does in English, i.e., an institution of higher learning in music. Examples are the Conservatorio de Toledo, Conservatorio de Puerto Rico, Conservatorio de Musica de Peru, etc. All are institutions of higher learning teaching music.
Whether they teach flamenco, as the conservatory in Rotterdam does, could only be determined by perusing a catalogue of courses taught. Probably not. Nevertheless, I don't think any literate person would refer to the Amor de Dios studio as a "conservatorio," although it may well produce (or lay the groundwork for) some fine flamenco guitarists, dancers, and singers. The same goes for the various schools and studios operating in Andalucia.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: Flamenco in music conservatories? (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
In Spanish the term "conservatorio" has the same meaning as it does in English, i.e., an institution of higher learning in music. Examples are the Conservatorio de Toledo, Conservatorio de Puerto Rico, Conservatorio de Musica de Peru, etc. All are institutions of higher learning teaching music.
This is what I meant by this discussion being US-centric because, although I can't speak for other Spanish-speaking countries, this is simply not true in Spain. Conservatorio teaching starts from age 8 onwards. The higher education equivalency only works when speaking of the "ensenanza superior" levels of teaching. But there is nothing unusual in hearing someone say of a young child that he's studying, say, violin, at the conservatory. In fact, the Conservatorio de Toledo that you mentioned states on its website that the minimum age to access 1st year "ensenanza elemental" is 8. Of course, some of them don't teach the more basic levels, but in this case this is clearly mentioned in their title (CSM, CPM, etc.).
For the rest, I wasn't saying that Amor de Dios was a conservatory. Merely that there is much more going on out there than some seem to think, with plenty of variations on who gets to deliver what kind of recognized diploma and as to what actually gets taught. There are, for instance, music schools that do not bear the title "conservatorio" but yet deliver the same degree as the "conservatorio profesional". The latest example of this in Madrid is UFlamenco, which hands out a CPM degree while officially not being a conservatorio at all (I think they're title is "centro de musica" and to make things more confusing they've called themselves UFlamenco as in Universidad del flamenco...bad marketing move on their part, just confuses what is already confusing)
EDIT: I should add that what made the Cordoba conservatory such a big deal for some is that it was the first flamenco track in "ensenanza superior". There are, however, plenty of conservatories in Spain that offer flamenco in "ensenanza elemental" and "ensenanza profesional". My understanding is that only the ensenanza superior is recognized as equivalent to a university degree.
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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
Posts: 3446
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: Flamenco in music conservatories? (in reply to ViejoAmargo)
I recently received this informative message from the well know luthier and flamenco guitarist Richard Brune, and posted it in the wrong thread. Here it is in the right thread:
"Hi Richard, I was following the foro thread on flamenco taught in the conservatory, and thought I would pass this along for what its worth. As you know, Segovia stated one of his life goals was to place the guitar into universities and conservatories on an equal basis as the violin or piano, the implied corollary being that it wasn't present in those teaching situations. However, if you read Domingo Prat's 1934 Diccionario de Guitarristas y Guitarreros, you will find that there were many academic institutions in Spain during Segovia's youth (and even well before) in which the guitar was part of the curriculum. In South America it was even a bigger deal in the Rio de la Plata area, with MANY conservatories, "escuelas" and "academias" run by players such as Prat, Sagueras, Sinópoli, etc catering to the creme de la creme of society folks, especially their daughters who comprised easily 50% of the population of guitarists. Segovia lived for several years in Montevideo, so he was well aware of this activity. This applies to guitarists who are literate, since reading music was an implied requisite to entering any of these institutions.
However, the discussion on the Foro relates to flamenco, with (I think) the implied assumption that "flamenco" and "classical" players have ALWAYS been two separate entities. This was not in fact, the case, some players were literate and ALSO played flamenco, some only played written composed music, and same were plain old illiterate flamenco tocaors. This whole notion of the "Classical Guitar" being a separate art and instrument really evolved after WW II, mainly due to Segovia's desire to separate himself from other competing players who billed themselves as "Spanish" guitarists.
Looking at the historical record, apart from the well documented academies in South America where the guitar was definitely on an equal if not GREATER social footing than the violin or piano, its clear that the guitar in Spain also was already in formal institutions of higher learning as illustrated by these attachments. The one brief paragraph mentioning Segovia's gift of his "personal guitar" (the 1924 Santos Hernandez now in the Circulating Music Library of Madrid) comes from the June 4, 1932 edition of "La Epoca," and was part of a review of Pedro Moreno, who played a concert of "Soleares, Siguiriyas, fandanguillos, Tarantas, in addition to transcriptions of Zarzuelas..." The full review occupied nearly a full column of the newspaper page!
The advertisement for the Sevillian guitar maker Manuel Soto y Solares comes from the 1876 edition of the "Guia de Sevilla," which was kind of like an atlas/phone book and general informational compendium for residents and businesses in Sevilla (sans phone numbers of course, since they had not yet been invented). As you can see, Manuel Soto y Solares, who only made the heavily domed "Tablao" style instruments used ubiquitously at that time in flamenco tablaos, is aiming his products at "Professors and aficionados..." I might also add that this was the same street Antonio de Torres worked on when he lived in Sevilla, and there was also a 3rd maker on the same street, Manuel Gutierrez, (who was was gone by 1876, as was Torres, who had moved back to to his hometown of Almeria around 1869). Torres had business relationships with both of these makers, when the 3 worked on the same street. Torres' personal model was created by "borrowing" design ideas from these other two makers, who were already established in Sevilla when Torres arrived there.
And then there is the catalog of José Ramirez I in which his most expensive custom models are intended for "professors and concert artists." Note that nowhere in any of this is to be found the term "Classical Guitar." José I also made only domed ("ahuevada") tablao style guitars. And of course, there has already been extensive discussion on the foro regarding the Rafael Marín "Metodo" which is of course written in both cifra and musical notation, a book I think was aimed primarily at non-gypsy aficionados. It appeared around the same time that recordings were first being sold, making flamenco music accessible and (most importantly, repeatable) for those trying to learn by ear who were not born into the art.
In the end, I would concur with Richard Marlow, one doesn't learn "salero," "gracia," y saber como "ser y estar" in an academic setting, but one does learn technique, history (if that's important to you...), and basic structure from this kind of setting, so these are useful sources for those not born into the art. Traditionally through the 19th century, being born into the art was the only way to learn flamenco, as this was nearly 100% dominated by a handful of gypsy families, whose descendants today are still among the most creative and vital fountains of original creation in the art. By the way, Silverio Franconetti is the ONLY "cantador de Cante" I have found in the 1876 guia de Sevilla. Gypsies are excluded from inclusion. Like the art of flamenco in relation to the history of the modern guitar, they were written out of the history books that would have documented their professions and domiciles.
Best wishes, Richard"
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Posts: 3446
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: Flamenco in music conservatories? (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
...and after I derailed the other thread, Paul Magnussen asked whether anyone remembeeed Vicente Gomez, who was for years Hollywood's main man for both classical and flamenco.
Yes, I remember him. His work on the soundtrack of "Captain From Castile" fascinated me as a kid. Probably one of the reasons I took up flamenco later on, for that matter. Googling, I ran across a biography of him on, oddly enough, a Bach website:
It just occurred to me that another Spaniard went broth ways, David Moreno. He emigrated from Spain to Mexico. I believe he worked at times at Manolo Caracol's tablao El Rincon de Goya in Mexico City. I also believe he made some classical records in Mexico. He was a client of the Mexico City luthier Juan Pimentel, whom I knew well.
Posts: 3467
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Flamenco in music conservatories? (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
quote:
Looking at the historical record, apart from the well documented academies in South America where the guitar was definitely on an equal if not GREATER social footing than the violin or piano, its clear that the guitar in Spain also was already in formal institutions of higher learning as illustrated by these attachments.
Now that we are operating in the proper thread, I have transferred my comment over accordingly. I think Richard Brune, in his statement cited above, is referring to what we have been referring to as "Conservatories," i.e. formal institutions of higher learning for music. He makes the point that he made in his excellent piece on the development of the guitar, that there was crossover with tocaors playing both classical and flamenco, and that apparently both were taught by professors in these conservatories, in both Latin America and Spain. He mentions the 1932 "La Epoca" review of Pedro Moreno's concert featuring Soleares, Siguiriyas, Fandanguillos, and Tarantas. It is an interesting piece and complements his earlier study.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Posts: 3467
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Flamenco in music conservatories? (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
I remember seeing "Captain from Castille" as a kid and liking the movie very much. Tyrone Power, Cesar Romero, and Jean Peters starred, and the guitar was captivating, although at the time I would not have known it was Vicente Gomez.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: Flamenco in music conservatories? (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
Some interesting historical insight. However, it doesn't seem to inform what is a simple matter of fact in Spain today: a Spanish child who wishes to learn flamenco as a guitar specialty in a formal conservatorio will hit a road block after 10 years of study (for most, that is to say at age 18). After this point, they will have the choice to pursue their formal studies in classical guitar and study flamenco on the side, or they will have to move to Cordoba, the only place in Spain at this point where flamenco guitar is recognized as a higher education track. Of course, it would be interesting to know how we reached this state of affairs, but this is quite simply how it stands today, and there seems to be no reason or rhyme for it. I often wonder if the rise of this whole street (flamenco) vs. literate (classical) dichotomy isn't just a self-fulfilling prophecy, the result of the daydreams of literate but uninformed people who viewed gitanos as a kind of legendary creature and not first and foremost as human beings. I'm not one to belittle others for their ignorance (as some do with the gitanos today), but I'm also not going to praise them for it. There is really no good reason to not promote a formal flamenco education. People should at least have the choice of whether they want it or not. By not promoting it, we're depriving them of this choice, praising them for their illiteracy and very much adopting this "stay poor and play for us peasants" attitude that was mentioned before.
On a side note, I strongly disagree that these formal settings are useful only to those not born into the art (though this is not exactly what you said, it seemed implied. Correct me if I'm wrong). In fact, these formal settings teach precisely what one doesn't learn in the family gitano setting and, as such, seem like they'd be a perfect addition to their own musical education. An interesting question could be the following: many of the great contemporary dancers have had some kind of formal higher education in dance (as payaso quite rightly pointed out). From Canales et al. who joined the likes of the National Ballet when of age to innumerable others who were sent by their parents to conservatorio from an early age on. Much fewer guitarists or parents thereof seem to think that this kind of formal education serves any purpose at all. My question is quite simply: why? And that's without even mentioning the issue of cante, where it seems that it is just assumed nowadays that technique doesn't matter and as long as someone can wail loud enough, that's good enough... (sorry, but the dearth of good cantaores today is appalling).
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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."