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Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA
Scale Length and small hands
I know this has been discussed umpteen times here and on other guitar forums, but I find myself with a dilemma. A few months a went to look a Conde for sale, I didn't like the Conde but the guy selling it had quite a collection of flamenco guitars including a 2004 Vicente Carrillo blanca. He told me it was his best guitar and it was not for sale but I played it and thought wow this guitar this sounds awesome. A few weeks ago he contacted me and told he was considering selling it since he had acquired some other guitars. I asked my wife if she would come to hear me play it and at first she said no and that I shouldn't buy a new guitar until my playing is good enough for the guitar. I explained to her that it is very difficult to find such a guitar here and that she should at least hear what it sounds like and finally she hesitantly said ok. So I went to look at the guitar again and when I saw it the owner had raised the strings and put Hannabach normal tension strings which are still quite high tension on it so it didn't play as well as before for me but I could tell still I loved this guitar for its sound and beauty of wood and construction. My wife said afterwards it had a grand piano sound. Then I remembered it was 660mm scale and I have small hands. Not freakish small but I have trouble making stretches across frets. For reference from my thumb to my pinky finger measures 225mm. I know that once you put a capo on scale length becomes much smaller, but I find I even have trouble stretching from the 5th fret to the 9th fret. It seems some people think scale doesn't matter and others think 650mm is much easier to play then 660mm. Often Manolo Sanlucar is mentioned as having very small hands and played a 664mm with ease. Well I am not MS and I am 58 years old and have been playing seriously for less than 2 years, I don't know much more my reach will increase. So I am torn between loving this guitar and afraid it will be difficult for me to play and having to sell it would be a very bad situation.
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Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena
Posts: 3470
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Scale Length and small hands (in reply to Cervantes)
If you really like the sound of the Carrillo, I would not worry about the 660 scale length. I was used to playing with 650 scale flamencas, and then I was offered the opportunity to buy a Gerundino 660 scale with a beautiful flamenco sound and tone from my teacher. It did not seem that much more of a reach than the 650s, and my left hand quickly accommodated itself to the additional stretch, slight though it was.
With practice and exercises your hand's ability to stretch and reach all required frets will increase to the point where it will no longer feel like an effort. Also to be considered is the shape of the neck and the set-up. In my opinion, though, the 660 scale length is the least of considerations. Once you accommodate yourself to the slightly additional stretch, you will be glad you did.
Bill
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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: Scale Length and small hands (in reply to Cervantes)
First of all, listen to your wife.
Second of all, do NOT buy a guitar that feels too big for your hands or else you will end up buying a crappy (but smaller thus much easier to play) one thereafter and sticking to playing it while the "better" one sleeps in its case then gets sold at a loss...
Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA
RE: Scale Length and small hands (in reply to BarkellWH)
That would be wishful thinking, my fingers have finite length. Do you consider your hands to be small or large?
_____________________________
Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena
Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA
RE: Scale Length and small hands (in reply to rombsix)
I already have that crappy guitar and even it is 657mm. Yes wife is more objective than me in this. I can't sell another guitar ever unless I happen run into a bunch of money. This one has to be right.
_____________________________
Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena
Posts: 3470
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Scale Length and small hands (in reply to Cervantes)
quote:
That would be wishful thinking, my fingers have finite length. Do you consider your hands to be small or large?
I consider my hands average, i.e., medium. It's not just the length of your fingers; it is developing the ability to spread them wider as well. That only comes with exercise and playing.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA
RE: Scale Length and small hands (in reply to Cervantes)
In theory, but I already have trouble on my guitar and I measured the first few frets with a digital caliper on the Carrillo to have a greater distance. Not sure my guitar even has the frets spaced right for 657mm will have to check. Maybe I should go to a random guitar store and try a 650mm classical or whatever.
_____________________________
Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena
Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA
RE: Scale Length and small hands (in reply to Andy Culpepper)
Andy,
I have not forgotten, you are still one of my options. Too bad we are on opposite sides of the country. Let me know when you can bring some guitars to CA.
_____________________________
Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena
RE: Scale Length and small hands (in reply to Cervantes)
Cervantes You answered your own questions in the original post.
You played and liked the guitar a lot, then you started thinking and now you dont know. Does that say something to you? Maybe your hands are better at stretching than your brain is. In that case, you are just normal.
RE: Scale Length and small hands (in reply to Cervantes)
Cervantes,
FWIW, I think you should go for the VC blanca if you are able to buy it.
I don't think the differences of 650mm to 660mm scales are as significant as it might seem, a bit of practise and time will let you get to grips with the longer scale. I found doing warm up exercises and practises increased the ability to stretch across frets.
RE: Scale Length and small hands (in reply to Cervantes)
I have owned guitars with scale lengths from 650 to 664. As my arthritic fingers got stiffer some guitars became more difficult to play. The two most difficult were a 650 and a 664. So what message do we take from this? Never measure or look at the numbers before you play an instrument - let your body tell you what you need to know. And don't forget the profile of the neck can sometimes be a more significant factor than the scale length.
RE: Scale Length and small hands (in reply to RobJe)
I agree with Robje - the neck size seems (to me in any case) have a big bearing on how you a guitar feels as you play it. I think its a holistic picture and is all in the overall "feel"
Posts: 3470
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Scale Length and small hands (in reply to Cervantes)
Cervantes, you laid out your concern and the Foro has spoken. The consensus is in. Go for the Vicente Carrillo blanca, and go for it before you lose it to someone else who buys it. You have been over-thinking the scale-length and finger-span. They are not a problem because, as so many here have written (including me), you will accommodate yourself to the slight increase in scale.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA
RE: Scale Length and small hands (in reply to Cervantes)
Thanks all for the feedback. I think the prudent thing to do would be to go back and play the guitar again and pay attention to how difficult the stretches are. I wasn't really doing that the last time and having my wife there was making me nervous. If flamenco guitars were not so difficult to find here I would just wait another 6 months or year. I could probably find another Carrillo or similar guitar in that time but not one I could see and play before buying. I have a lesson on Thursday so I ask my teacher what he thinks about it.
_____________________________
Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena
RE: Scale Length and small hands (in reply to Cervantes)
quote:
Thanks all for the feedback. I think the prudent thing to do would be to go back and play the guitar again and pay attention to how difficult the stretches are. I wasn't really doing that the last time and having my wife there was making me nervous. If flamenco guitars were not so difficult to find here I would just wait another 6 months or year. I could probably find another Carrillo or similar guitar in that time but not one I could see and play before buying. I have a lesson on Thursday so I ask my teacher what he thinks about it.
What about Guitar Salon?
1455 19th St, Santa Monica, CA 90404
It's 2 hr and 12 min driving away from your area...
Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA
RE: Scale Length and small hands (in reply to rombsix)
I am aware of Guitar Salon. Their prices seem insanely high and a good place to shop if you have cash burning holes in your pockets. If I had $10K I am sure I could find a guitar there. For $3K they don't have much and that Carrillo would probably be more like $5K there. However it might be a good place to test out guitars of different sizes and builders.
_____________________________
Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena
Zeff is notably cheaper than Guitarsalon, and has a good reputation. I have never bought a guitar from Guitarsalon, but if you see something you like, it wouldn't hurt to try making an offer.
Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston
RE: Scale Length and small hands (in reply to Cervantes)
Cervantes--a couple of other factors with neck feel and length. The spacing of strings at the nut can play a factor--this includes the width of the nut and the width of spacing between strings. The other factor is the shape of the neck. Some 52mm nuts can have a string spacing from about 40 to 44mm. For some this can be significant. As to scale length, a 10mm overall difference comes down to 5mm over the first 12 frets. Capo the second fret and the difference is pretty small from frets 3 to 12.
RE: Scale Length and small hands (in reply to Cervantes)
Actually, I’m not sure that ‘go for it’ is the best advice. Nobody here has seen or heard the guitar. Could they advise you on the choice of an unseen wife? - and a guitar is a crucial partner in your life. There is no mention of the price or how that would compare with other possible purchases. The dealer’s tactic of saying his “best’ guitar is not for sale, then discovering that it is, sounds very dodgy to me. After 2 years of flamenco, do you really have the experience to rate how good a guitar it is? And you have doubts. Whatever those doubts are, they should probably be heeded. There are lots of extremely fine guitars that you can fall in love with
Posts: 3470
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Scale Length and small hands (in reply to payaso)
quote:
Actually, I’m not sure that ‘go for it’ is the best advice. Nobody here has seen or heard the guitar. Could they advise you on the choice of an unseen wife? - and a guitar is a crucial partner in your life.
Cervantes himself tried the Carrillo and stated, "I played it and thought wow this guitar this sounds awesome." That nobody here has seen or heard the guitar is irrelevant. Cervantes saw and played the guitar, thought it sounded "awesome," and is asking for feedback from Foro members regarding the importance of hand-size playing a 660. In choosing a guitar, as in choosing a wife, it is up to Cervantes, regardless whether or not we have seen the guitar or the wife. We Foro members can offer the advice he is seeking based on his description of the guitar as he played it, and it is up to Cervantes to heed it or reject it.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
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