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RE: Historical Flamenco Guitar Tutors/Methods   You are logged in as Guest
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Blondie#2

 

Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 14 2010
 

RE: Historical Flamenco Guitar Tutor... (in reply to Rob MacKillop

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rob MacKillop
Richard - in a word, no. In more words: I'll be more in the Julian Arcas camp. We know he was a flesh player, and that he played soleá, boleros, etc. I'd be interested in finding out if any flamenco players played without nails. It's hard to imagine someone doing that today, but things were freer in the late 19th century, which is where I place Marin's book, despite it being published in 1902. Marin mentions very short nails, but does include a soleá by Arcas...


I haven't seen Marin's book, but its important to note that Arcas, along with other Spanish classical guitar composers of the period (and later), wrote pieces called solea/soleares, bulerias etc that bear little resemblance to the flamenco toques of the same name, they are usually just a steal of the title for phrygian based miniatures.

eg







So whilst there was healthy flamenco/classical cross fertilisation of the time and *some* players could play both styles, I haven't seen convincing evidence that Arcas could play or understood flamenco.

I think you will struggle to find evidence of a 'nail-less' tradition in flamenco, certainly once it emerged as a solo art form.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 13 2016 13:12:32
 
Rob MacKillop

Posts: 65
Joined: Oct. 18 2010
 

RE: Historical Flamenco Guitar Tutor... (in reply to Blondie#2

Yes, I am fully aware of that, thanks. But Marin did include an Arcas solea in his Method. Classical players would include flamenco-infused pieces, and flamenco players would play some classical-infused pieces or passages, as witnessed in Marin's book. Just as today, flamenco players play with jazz musicians, except today we call it fusion.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 13 2016 13:38:24

Piwin

Posts: 2192
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Historical Flamenco Guitar Tutor... (in reply to Richard Jernigan

Thank you Richard B. for this interesting contribution and Richard J. for passing it on for all of us to read.
I am not nearly well versed enough in pre-WWII flamenco to have a clear opinion on the matter, nor unfortunately to carry the discussion any deeper on the origins of the term "classical" guitar, but I suppose it wouldn't be the first time that we as human beings take current dichotomies and extrapolate them to another place or time where they do/did not exist. Even in the way it is used today, the distinction between flamenco and classical guitarists seems to serve many different purposes, many of which create a divide along social or ethnic lines more so than just distinguishing musical forms. We end up using "classical" to say "musically literate" or "academically trained" and "flamenco" for its opposite, among many other meanings (I've sometimes wondered whether "classico" wasn't sometimes just a polite way for some of saying "maricon"). It's hard to have a worthwhile discussion when the terms aren't clearly defined. Recently I had a discussion with a colleague about multiculturalism. We quickly ran into a wall. With hindsight, I realized that what he meant by multiculturalism was simply the existence of several cultures in a given place (France is a multicultural State) whereas I meant the political philosophy that attempts to ensure the coexistence of several cultures in the same place (France is not a multicultural State, not by a long shot). It is all the more confusing that in some cases the meanings we we're giving to the term aligned (the case of a state that is both known for having several cultures and a strong political philosophy to ensure their coexistence (the US) or a state that is known for neither of the two (Japan). We ended up agreeing and disagreeing without really knowing why.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 13 2016 14:12:29
 
estebanana

 

Posts: 7502
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Historical Flamenco Guitar Tutor... (in reply to Blondie#2

I think the nails vs. no nails debate in earlier flamenco is a difficult concept; to argue against playing without nails from our contemporary vantage point is looking back with 20/20 hindsight; we know now that dance accompaniment drove guitarists to develop aggressive right hand technique in service of dancers' needs and for guitar players to be able to compete with dancers ever developing foot work. That has provided us with a very beautiful modern art.

In the time of Arcas, dancers were doing very different things than they are doing today. One should remember that women dancers did not really do aggressive foot work until perhaps the mid 20th century and relied on their mastery of braceo, upper body elegance and beauty, to carry the art of dance. It might be salient to meditate on that course of logic when formulating ideas and reconstruction of how flamenco was played in bygone eras.

There are also two other ideas that are important to factor in- One is that just because a piece called "solea" is included in a method book book does not mean that is how Marin played it verbatim. The meghod book could have been an introductory or general work on how to play flamenco and to keep in mind the intended audience for the book is important. What's more Arcas' solea could have been written for just such a late 19th century dancer who emphasized braceo over footwork and the more flowing less strict compas of his toque may have been the precise toque his dancer asked for.

We often compare contemporary playing to older flamenco styles or aesthetics without a lot of forethought and I often perceive a misconception from players today about what was done in 1890. How can we know? There were many things happening in Spanish music at the time, for one I seldom hear Zarzuela being mentioned as part of the mixed bag of styles or music a guitar player would have to know in order to make a living.

We would do well to remember that much of the 'Puro attitude' of today stems from Antonio Mareina's and Perico del Lunar's reconstructions of Puro cante and the commercial anthologies of music they put together to react to what they saw as a loss of real cante traditions. The question when looking back on past flamenco before 1950 or 1940 , 1930, do we really understand what was what outside of the recordings we have?

How do Arcas' triplet figures in that video stack up with Ramon Montoya's use of triplet figures in his Solea toque? Pretty darn well.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 13 2016 14:33:11

Piwin

Posts: 2192
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Historical Flamenco Guitar Tutor... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

for one I seldom hear Zarzuela being mentioned as part of the mix bag of styles or music a guitar player would have to know in order to make a living


Who's Zarzuela?


I have to agree with your post. The funny thing is that even the type of piece that Blondie#2 posted could arguably sound flamenco in our current understanding of the term if played with a modern-day flamenco technique. I have a few Escudero pieces in my repertoire that sound more "classical" than the rest of his work but I play them with a modern flamenco technique, which is the only technique I know. I've often had people react by saying that that wasn't really flamenco. Then I tell them it was by Mario Escudero. Then they say oh well it is flamenco then... As if the music itself wasn't what defined whether it is flamenco or not, but the person who wrote it.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 13 2016 14:36:52
 
estebanana

 

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RE: Historical Flamenco Guitar Tutor... (in reply to Blondie#2

Piwin, you are unspeakable! Dammed cunning linguist.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 13 2016 15:06:36
 
Blondie#2

 

Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 14 2010
 

RE: Historical Flamenco Guitar Tutor... (in reply to Rob MacKillop

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rob MacKillop
Classical players would include flamenco-infused pieces, and flamenco players would play some classical-infused pieces or passages


Sure, that's exactly the cross fertilisation I was referring to above. Can't dispute that, or Stephen's points about the triplets.

I guess for me the interesting question is whether any classical guitar players of the time could actually compose/play toque in compas. I shall have to look up that Solea in the Marin book.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 13 2016 15:10:48

Piwin

Posts: 2192
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Historical Flamenco Guitar Tutor... (in reply to Blondie#2

@estebanana

quote:

Piwin, you are unspeakable! Dammed cunning linguist.



@Blondie#2

If we accept Richard B.'s point that the term classical guitar did not exist at that time, the whole question of knowing whether "any classical guitar players of the time could actually compose/play toque in compas" is moot. As would be the issue of cross-fertilisation: who is fertilizing what? If we did away with the classical/flamenco dichotomy, there can't be any kind of cross-fertilization per se, only fertilization from different players on a spectrum with no clear dividing line in the middle.

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Chicken crossing
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 13 2016 15:39:32
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 2604
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Historical Flamenco Guitar Tutor... (in reply to Piwin

Some well known composer in the fairly early 19th century wrote a rondo whose recurring section was a quite flamenco sounding fandango, interspersed with what we would nowadays call classical episodes. Could someone please point me to it?

I spent 15 or 20 minutes yesterday browsing among Giuliani, Legnani and Aguado without coming up with it. But my search wasn't comprehensive, so it could have been one of those guys...

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 13 2016 15:57:08
 
Rob MacKillop

Posts: 65
Joined: Oct. 18 2010
 

RE: Historical Flamenco Guitar Tutor... (in reply to Blondie#2

Well, it's an interesting discussion, with quite a few interesting points and perspectives on display here.

I think I should clarify my own position. I'm not a modern flamenco player, I just don't have the technique for that, nor the experience. I do, though, love the form, and respect its development.

I'm not trying to recreate early flamenco from Marin's book. That would be futile, and a waste of time. But I am interested in looking through the window that Marin's book opens up. It was an influential book, apparently, and therefore important. Whether you think flamenco can be learned from a book or not, does not matter (with respect) when we are facing the fact that many guitarists learned from this book way back in the first decade of the 20th century.

That the book includes items and forms that look very different to what became the classic form is not something that worries me, in fact I find it very interesting. If someone tells me, "That's not a proper Solea", I can counter that Rafael Marin thought it of value enough to include in his influential Method, and there lies its validity.

The nails, no-nails question is a side issue. There is the assumption that playing without nails is quieter than with. Not so. But I would not expect modern players to even contemplate flamenco without nails. But it could be done, and, yes, of course it would sound different. It would not be "normal", but it could be done. But I'm more interested in the early period, when we know that many guitarists played without nails - pre Segovia. My guess is that some flamenco guitarists played without nails. Even a minority is "some". I'm just wondering if anyone has information in that regard.

Richard, Aguado does have a couple of Fandangos...is that what you mean?

EDIT: and Boccherini...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 13 2016 16:13:11
 
Kevin

 

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RE: Historical Flamenco Guitar Tutor... (in reply to Rob MacKillop

quote:

That the book includes items and forms that look very different to what became the classic form is not something that worries me, in fact I find it very interesting. If someone tells me, "That's not a proper Solea", I can counter that Rafael Marin thought it of value enough to include in his influential Method, and there lies its validity.


So far, Estebanana makes some of the better points, especially concerning (implicitly) that we should not impose our present understanding on to past practices (presentism).
The soleares on page 95 is as flamenco as could be. The only thing non-flamenco about it is that it is notated whereas the usual tradition at that time was aural/oral. Critics of Marin's method should really analyze Montoya's solea and compare it with Marin. On a side note, Montoya is usually credited with interpreting the solea in E. Before him it was primarily in A. But here we have Marin documenting it in E in 1902. Very possible that Marin was first or a third party was first.

Anyway, Montoya uses many of these falsetas. He fancies them up a bit. The triplet tremolo becomes quintuplet in Montoya.

Also, the Arcas solea in Marin is a falseta that is not published in the Arcas solea. Arcas seems to already have been stringing gestures together to make a solea. It is not a composition in the sense of "classical piece." My contention is that the soledad was danced and out of this genre the flamenco solea emerged. In fact, there are notices of Arcas solea being danced to around 1867. This seems to suggest that the flamenco solea was not codified at this time, neither in dance, solo, nor accompaniment (a rather late date).

Anyway...my two cents

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 13 2016 17:41:49

Piwin

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RE: Historical Flamenco Guitar Tutor... (in reply to Kevin

quote:

This seems to suggest that the flamenco solea was not codified at this time, neither in dance, solo, nor accompaniment (a rather late date).


Could this also entail a lack of rhythmic codification, i.e. that the compas in that time was not necessarily the same solea compas we have today?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 13 2016 17:59:33
 
Rob MacKillop

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Joined: Oct. 18 2010
 

RE: Historical Flamenco Guitar Tutor... (in reply to Blondie#2

Good points, Kevin.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 13 2016 18:01:02
 
Kiko_Roca

Posts: 82
Joined: Apr. 25 2016
From: Midwest, USA

RE: Historical Flamenco Guitar Tutor... (in reply to Kevin

quote:

In fact, there are notices of Arcas solea being danced to around 1867. This seems to suggest that the flamenco solea was not codified at this time, neither in dance, solo, nor accompaniment (a rather late date).


That is an interesting idea. What do you think about this recording below (which is ~1879 if I understand correctly)? The compas seems quite clearly established during accompaniment at least.

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 13 2016 21:46:25
 
Kevin

 

Posts: 294
Joined: Sep. 7 2008
 

RE: Historical Flamenco Guitar Tutor... (in reply to Kiko_Roca

quote:

That is an interesting idea. What do you think about this recording below (which is ~1879 if I understand correctly)? The compas seems quite clearly established during accompaniment at least.


The earliest recordings available are from 1895 but as for Breva with Montoya as accompanist, nothing exists before 1910.

Remember, you basically had two positions in early flamenco: por arriba and por medio. Por medio was the key of the solea in Arcas. The first documented example of por arriba is in Marin. The earliest recordings of solea are dated 1895-1902. They are too grainy to discern the timbre/position but I hear por medio in at least one of those recordings (not absolutely sure).
By 1904 it sounds as though E/por arriba is firmly established. So somewhere between 1867 and 1895 E gets introduced with a possible later date of 1904 (remember also that Montoya, in popular lore, is often credited with innovating the solea por arriba).

The hemiola/compas is definitely developed but is it codified? Not sure (I do make an argument in my thesis). Sounds like many of these early guitarists struggle. As far as accompaniment, man, they miss all kinds of chords that todays guitarists would not generally miss.

Finally, the speed is really fast. It is a slower buleria speed and even sometimes sounds like bulerias as interpreted in Lebrija (at least some of its characteristics, not all). There is a myth that Loco Mateo (or was it Nitri, I forgot) sped up a solea and the bulerias was born. It is more plausible that the buleria inherited its rhythm from the chufla and its melodies from the solea. Listen to the early chuflas and you hear the melodies in phrygian and the guitarists plow through in major...OUCH.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 13 2016 22:56:55
 
Rob MacKillop

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RE: Historical Flamenco Guitar Tutor... (in reply to Blondie#2

What's your thesis, Kevin? Is it available to read?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 14 2016 6:48:45
 
Blondie#2

 

Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 14 2010
 

RE: Historical Flamenco Guitar Tutor... (in reply to Piwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin
If we accept Richard B.'s point that the term classical guitar did not exist at that time, the whole question of knowing whether "any classical guitar players of the time could actually compose/play toque in compas" is moot. As would be the issue of cross-fertilisation: who is fertilizing what? If we did away with the classical/flamenco dichotomy, there can't be any kind of cross-fertilization per se, only fertilization from different players on a spectrum with no clear dividing line in the middle.


Yes, that's a fair point.

Interesting thread this, throwing light on the very early days of flamenco guitar. I am so used to defending flamenco guitar as a sophisticated and developed artform in other circles (mainly classical, & mainly focussing on 20th century through to today) yet it seems a lot of the arguments (on both sides) evaporate in this era, for the reasons raised by Kevin and Stephen.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 14 2016 7:51:07
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 2829
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Historical Flamenco Guitar Tutor... (in reply to Blondie#2

quote:

Interesting thread this, throwing light on the very early days of flamenco guitar. I am so used to defending flamenco guitar as a sophisticated and developed artform in other circles (mainly classical, & mainly focussing on 20th century through to today) yet it seems a lot of the arguments (on both sides) evaporate in this era, for the reasons raised by Kevin and Stephen.


I wholeheartedly agree. There are two questions involved in this discussion: When did the flamenco guitar and classical guitar take on distinct characteristics, evolving from the "Spanish" guitar? And was there early cross-fertilization between "classical" guitarists and flamenco guitarists, i.e., were both genres on a continuum with no discernible break-point separating them?

I am not a musicologist by a long shot, but the evidence seems to me to point to the flamenco guitar evolving as a separate species long after flamenco had developed as a genre; and there was no separate break-point between classical and flamenco, as such. That only developed later, perhaps with Segovia as some suggest. Perhaps with others.

Like many of us, I had read Richard Brune's interesting piece long ago. But I agree with Blondie that Stephen and Kevin have carried this discussion forward with clarity and insight.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 14 2016 10:58:35
 
estebanana

 

Posts: 7502
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Historical Flamenco Guitar Tutor... (in reply to Blondie#2

Hey all, I have a a PDF copy of R.E. Brune's 'Cultural Origins of the Modern Guitar'

It is an astute and well thought out essay. Richard has given permission for it to be exchanged freely throughout the guitar community and I will gladly email any interested person a copy of this insightful work.

Let me know via PM if you would like a copy and I will send ASAP.

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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 14 2016 11:27:49
 
Blondie#2

 

Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 14 2010
 

RE: Historical Flamenco Guitar Tutor... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana
Hey all, I have a a PDF copy of R.E. Brune's 'Cultural Origins of the Modern


Maybe post it here in the resources section?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 14 2016 12:08:21

Piwin

Posts: 2192
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Historical Flamenco Guitar Tutor... (in reply to Rob MacKillop

@Rob MacKillop

I gave the nail-less approach a try a while back. I remember being rather satisfied with the amount of power I could get out of it. The main issue for me was one of accuracy. I was having a hard time staying accurate at the higher speeds often required in flamenco. I suppose it suggests I rely too heavily on the "catch" spot being flesh and nail. I'm sure if I had stuck with it, I could have achieved a close enough level to what I have with nails but I took the easy route and went back to using nails.

@Kevin

I remember Faustino Nunez talking about the search for the sheet-music for a piece dated back to the early 1800. Soledad de los gitanos I believe was the title. My understanding was that they had found several references to the document but never the document itself. Nunez seemed to think that if and when this document was found, it would shed a lot of light on the early evolution of solea.

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Chicken crossing
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 14 2016 15:56:32
 
Kiko_Roca

Posts: 82
Joined: Apr. 25 2016
From: Midwest, USA

RE: Historical Flamenco Guitar Tutor... (in reply to Kevin

Thanks for the reply Kevin - I guess I should have kept reading the description further to see this was with Monytoya - But then I wouldn't be surprised to find he was accompanying flamenco as a todler. :)

You've mentioned your thesis a few times... has this been published yet, and if so, can you share the bibliography details so we can look it up? I'd be interested to read it - though I certainly understand if you have a preference for online privacy.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 14 2016 19:13:32
 
Kevin

 

Posts: 294
Joined: Sep. 7 2008
 

RE: Historical Flamenco Guitar Tutor... (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

I am not a musicologist by a long shot, but the evidence seems to me to point to the flamenco guitar evolving as a separate species long after flamenco had developed as a genre; and there was no separate break-point between classical and flamenco, as such. That only developed later, perhaps with Segovia as some suggest. Perhaps with others.


I think flamenco developed much later than people think. My view is that 1880/81 is its birthdate while its "gestation" goes back to 1820 but are these just arbitrary numbers? I make my arguments but there are many possible perspectives and as new evidence is unearthed we might get a better picture.

As for the labels flamenco and classical in reference to the guitar, none of the nineteenth century methods use "classical." Even the twentieth century methods of Sagreras, Pujol, and others limit the label to "guitar." Perhaps it was Segovia that introduced this terminology.

At any rate, Baroque, Classical and Romantic are late nineteenth century labels projected onto the musical past. Bach never used "baroque," Mozart never used "classical," etc. In fact, there is an interesting book about the Galant syle which is roughly 1720-1780. If you want to understand this music the way someone living in that time might have understood it, read this book.

Also read Bruce Haynes on the HIP (historically informed practice). His book is interesting because it demonstrates how we take for granted the Romantic performance style and play the entire range of music (1600-1910) in this style. I think that is why I really can't listen to Segovia play Bach. The point is, we sometimes take as natural certain cultural conventions of our time and apply them to the past (chronocentrism). I think this happens in flamenco as well.

@Kiko_Roca
Thesis is almost finished and I have to go through the defense this fall semester at which point it will get published. It is mostly a defense of and methodology for cross-cultural musical analysis. But I touch on a lot of historical issues from a music-analytic perspective. Thanks for your interest.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 14 2016 19:41:51
 
estebanana

 

Posts: 7502
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Historical Flamenco Guitar Tutor... (in reply to Blondie#2

quote:

e:

ORIGINAL: estebanana
Hey all, I have a a PDF copy of R.E. Brune's 'Cultural Origins of the Modern


Maybe post it here in the resources section?


It's been posted in public on the Foro before, but I want to send it to those who request it because they are more likely to actually read it and think about it in the context of a particular discussion.

Checking email now and sending out the requests.

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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 15 2016 7:24:43
 
Kiko_Roca

Posts: 82
Joined: Apr. 25 2016
From: Midwest, USA

RE: Historical Flamenco Guitar Tutor... (in reply to Kevin

Good luck on the defense and myriad of approvals leading up to it!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 27 2016 15:21:32

Morante

 

Posts: 1409
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Historical Flamenco Guitar Tutor... (in reply to Kevin

http://www.diariodecadiz.es/article/mapademusicas/2330585/falla/y/flamenco.html
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 27 2016 15:35:21
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11080
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Historical Flamenco Guitar Tutor... (in reply to Rob MacKillop

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rob MacKillop

Richard - in a word, no. In more words: I'll be more in the Julian Arcas camp. We know he was a flesh player, and that he played soleá, boleros, etc. I'd be interested in finding out if any flamenco players played without nails. It's hard to imagine someone doing that today, but things were freer in the late 19th century, which is where I place Marin's book, despite it being published in 1902. Marin mentions very short nails, but does include a soleá by Arcas...



I had heard about Marin method for years and finally found the PDf some years back. My parents were students of S. Papas who published a book probably in 60's or 70's called "Easy Flamenco variations".... Needless to say there is no useful "flamenco" guitar in the book, but it for sure is "easy" for students that can read. Couldn't help to note the similar feel the Marin method book presents. Pseudo flamenco cheese easy for mass consumption, a commercial product and not much as a proper learning tool for it's day and age. I too have heard the clips of old flamenco Kevin refers too from late 1800's and early 1900....right in the time frame of Marin's method development. They actually played what we consider flamenco guitar today, IMO. Whether it only goes back to 1880 (two decades only) or much further, is arbitrary to the point the playing style of Arcas and Tarrega etc was quite different. Call it classical or whatever you want, it was NOT flamenco. Arpeggio is the only thing I notice might have influenced the flamenco players, and by that I mean the type of thing of thumb melody bass lines with broken chord up top to color it, heard a lot in Arcas. But because he wrote it on paper doesn't mean it COMES from him alone.

Anyway, TODAY we argue over what Soniquete is or specific rasgueado or how to hold a picado finger, or file your nails etc etc. So we can simply do the same in light of any "evidence" of the old days. It depends who is the person looking at the evidence, not the evidence itself. Look at the varying opinion of a modern recorded performance. Of course I agree, the recording "evidence" and historical written documents are but the tip of the iceberg for it's day. But recordings of flamenco ended up influencing next generations after all.

About nails vs no nails.... I know that in regard of Tarrega (I don't care about Arcas), he had to develop callouses on the right hand tips to produce a decent tone. That is the first important thing. The reason he did it is because his nails sucked....i.e., as we see weekly at this forum the too frequent "how to" question, HE DID NOT KNOW HOW TO FILE THEM PROPERLY. Fine, so he developed this new thing and tried to push it on students as superior (pujol book describes this thing).

Now fast forward to present day, no nail vs nail playing. After hearing me perform flamenco a classical player asked to see my nails, seeing how short they are declared "how can you play that way, with NO NAILS????".....and so we see again it is about who is observing the evidence, not the evidence itself.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 27 2016 18:29:54
 
Kevin

 

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Joined: Sep. 7 2008
 

RE: Historical Flamenco Guitar Tutor... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Call it classical or whatever you want, it was NOT flamenco.


Actually not arbitrary at all. There are three possible views (maybe more).
1) Flamenco emerged from earlier Andalusian genres
2) "Classical" and folk/pop players borrowed from Flamenco
3) Andalusian genres offered a range of possibilities from which classical, folk/pop, and flamenco players all found inspiration.

El Murciano and Paco el Barbero are considered among the early school of flamencos and by Ricardo's criteria, they are not flamenco. Paco el Barbero has some falsetas as does Paco de Lucena that we would nowadays consider simple cliches. In contrast Marin's method is very flamenco. What makes it not look flamenco is the very academic idea of publishing. People are already biased toward "publishing = classical/academic."
All the falsetas in Marin's solea can be found in variation among the early players. There is a triplet tremolo with bass melody that everyone used including Montoya (he introduced, according to some, the five note tremolo). There is a lot of thumbwork. That alone should give people pause because one of the narratives in the history of early flamenco is that they only played rajeo and pulgar. In fact, so the narrative goes, Montoya introduced all the techniques to flamenco.

My view, based on some fairly recently published material is that the Andalusian songs existed before flamenco. Flamenco, including the seguirya and solea, had precursors and even though flamenco emerged perhaps around 1880, it continued to be codified even in to the early twentieth century and is still being codified today. Arcas and Marin and Paco el Barbero and Paco Lucena are so similar in approach that you can't really distinguish a perfect line to categorize them. Add to that Brune's argument about the classical and flamenco guitars and you have a great argument for a late "birth."

Also, Arcas was not a classical guitarist. When you look at the development of classical guitar in Spain from Sors to Tarrega, Arcas seems an oddity. He didn't compose pieces the way that either of those two did. He was more like a soloist. His Rondena for example includes "falsetas" but also includes the cante melody. It is a similar melody to some fandangos, jabera, or verdiales. The tradition of arranging a song for solo is a long one in Spain. So, he is either a folk/pop guitarist and precursor to flamenco or he is as flamenco as any of those other guys. Rioja notes that among the early players everyone copied Arcas. So, if he does not fit in the classical category and he is very similar to some of the other players, then either flamenco was still in its early stages and we are projecting our notion onto the past, or perhaps there are multiple other possibilities aside from just outright rejecting him.

In regard to nails, I have no evidence in the literature. My guess is that nails were not used for flamenco for obvious reasons. Superglue did not come out til the 20th century so some of those early players must have eaten lots of gelatin.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 27 2016 19:19:09
 
kitarist

Posts: 556
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Historical Flamenco Guitar Tutor... (in reply to Kiko_Roca

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kiko_Roca

That is an interesting idea. What do you think about this recording below (which is ~1879 if I understand correctly)? The compas seems quite clearly established during accompaniment at least.




This was recorded in late 1910 and published Feb 1911.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 27 2016 20:38:00
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11080
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Historical Flamenco Guitar Tutor... (in reply to kitarist

Was feeling some Deja Vu about this topic....I found this. Most important the Glinka and other scores of Murciano, and later my thoughts on Aloysius solea from 1890's I found relevant to this discussion here:

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=274117&mpage=2&p=&tmode=1&smode=1&key=flamenco%2C1895

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 27 2016 21:41:29
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