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Flamenco harmony for theory freaks! (or musical illiterate freaks)   You are logged in as Guest
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koenie17

Posts: 438
Joined: Feb. 25 2011
From: España

Flamenco harmony for theory freaks! ... 

I just found this channel on youtube about flamenco harmony. It seems that the guy knows what he´s talking about, but I really can´t give my opinion because my knowledge of theory is quite basic.
Maybe Ricardo o anyone else who knows about this can have a look and let us know if all this is correct? I´d like to start learning a bit more on this subject.
The videos are all in Spanish, nice examples with letras and musical notation.
I have to warn you guys for his singing... hehehe

https://youtu.be/O2L6tq8DlRo

Fmaj7add#4(bIImaj7)

Dominantes secundarios V7/bII y V7/bVI y tension bIII#9)

ehhh... do you mean 6 por medio?? jajaja

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2016 18:40:30
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Flamenco harmony for theory freaks! (in reply to koenie17

Nice title.

Are we allowed to say "musical illiterate freaks" too?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2016 18:56:06
 
koenie17

Posts: 438
Joined: Feb. 25 2011
From: España

RE: Flamenco harmony for theory freaks! (in reply to koenie17

Of course

Videos like this make me feel real dumb and confused




So should I start learning or what??

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2016 19:02:30
 
El Rey De los Bagres

 

Posts: 86
Joined: Apr. 29 2014
 

RE: Flamenco harmony for theory frea... (in reply to koenie17

Really cool how he superimposed the sheet music over those videos where you can see how the singer makes use of the scales.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2016 19:21:25
 
Nito

Posts: 77
Joined: Sep. 3 2015
 

RE: Flamenco harmony for theory freaks! (in reply to koenie17

IMHO if you understand Spanish, I think Faustino Nuñez nowadays is the best option to understand the flamenco harmony.

Faustino Nuñez - Tonalidades

Other option of course is Oscar Herrero.

Apart of the flamenco courses, On this masterclass he speaks about differents topic related with Flamenco.

26min 49sec speaks about the harmony.



I hope it helps,

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7 8 9 10 1 2
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2016 19:43:13
 
Kevin

 

Posts: 294
Joined: Sep. 7 2008
 

RE: Flamenco harmony for theory frea... (in reply to koenie17

Edit:
I forgot how hostile people are to music theory here, lol

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2016 20:28:12
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14970
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Flamenco harmony for theory frea... (in reply to koenie17

Ok...first he uses a jazz guitar to play some chords that aren't flamenco and names them with Roman Numerals (what you do for classical music analysis more often)...as if in C major though...he want' Phrygian (eye roll)... Next cante and accomp in ABSOLUTE KEY notation (wtf?)....at 7 minutes he talks about the b5 uses in cante por Solea...proceeds to sing Jaleos and deliver the wrong tono. (The "b5" is honestly just the dominant 7th (C7) from key of F...basically the V7/II in his Phrygian key). The point being it's not functioning as "b5" in E so it's not really relevant. Even if you use the chord he does, it's just plagel cadence in F major right there (the cambio of the letra), so I basically turned it off at that point. Hope the rest was interesting..

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 13 2016 3:48:54
 
koenie17

Posts: 438
Joined: Feb. 25 2011
From: España

RE: Flamenco harmony for theory frea... (in reply to Kevin

quote:

I forgot how hostile people are to music theory here, lol


I hope it wasn´t for the title.... I didn´t mean it to be ofensive in any way!
So if anyone took this in a negative way then I apologise.

I never learned theory the proper way, before flamenco I used to noodle some blues and rock music but nothing special. Flamenco I´m learning the traditional way which is ok for me, just sometimes wish I could understand things better. I´ve got a friend who´s really great at playing all these crazy chords/voicings and scales. But when he starts explaing I get lost quickly
Just playing and jamming together I learn a lot from him.




quote:

at 7 minutes he talks about the b5 uses in cante por Solea...proceeds to sing Jaleos and deliver the wrong tono.
quote:



I warned you about the singing...

Either way I´ll give the guy credit for the video, I like the idea of the letra and the chords with the examples. It just got all a bit too complicated for me, I think flamenco is a lot more simple than that.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 13 2016 10:17:49
 
tele

Posts: 1468
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: Flamenco harmony for theory frea... (in reply to koenie17

I think that everything that's relevant in flamenco can be well explained by spanish guitarists such as Herrero. He's very clear in the way he explains things, too. Thanks for both videos

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 13 2016 10:54:56
 
minorthang

 

Posts: 222
Joined: Dec. 25 2014
 

RE: Flamenco harmony for theory frea... (in reply to koenie17

Great find , the video is really full of great infomation, wish my spanish was better

thank you for the links guys and girls
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 14 2016 9:34:40
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1637
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Flamenco harmony for theory frea... (in reply to koenie17

quote:

ORIGINAL: koenie17

I just found this channel on youtube about flamenco harmony. It seems that the guy knows what he´s talking about, but I really can´t give my opinion because my knowledge of theory is quite basic.
Maybe Ricardo o anyone else who knows about this can have a look and let us know if all this is correct? I´d like to start learning a bit more on this subject.
The videos are all in Spanish, nice examples with letras and musical notation.
I have to warn you guys for his singing... hehehe

https://youtu.be/O2L6tq8DlRo

Fmaj7add#4(bIImaj7)

Dominantes secundarios V7/bII y V7/bVI y tension bIII#9)

ehhh... do you mean 6 por medio?? jajaja

This guy's channel has another video about a flamenco tonality. The first video in his youtube channel. What does he mean by a secondary relative minor tonality? Can we really use it to explain flamenco harmony?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2023 23:14:28
 
kitarist

Posts: 1719
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Flamenco harmony for theory frea... (in reply to devilhand

quote:

What does he mean by a secondary relative minor tonality?


He means the flamenco/phrygian tonality, as seen e.g. in this thread: http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=332688

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2023 23:40:59
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14970
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Flamenco harmony for theory frea... (in reply to devilhand

quote:

This guy's channel has another video about a flamenco tonality. The first video in his youtube channel. What does he mean by a secondary relative minor tonality? Can we really use it to explain flamenco harmony?


You can use many ways to “explain” flamenco harmony, but it is contingent on the fact you understand the system the terminology is BORROWED FROM. In flamenco, you should be learning harmony via accompanying cante and don’t play the wrong chords at the wrong time, etc. And apply that harmonic concept to baile as well, to understand deep the rhythmic language at work. Both of these can be explained by other systems, for example this guy is coming from Jazz/Western Classical…so he is SPEAKING to an audience that already grasps those systems (i.e. he is speaking to ME and not YOU!! ). And so I totally get where he is coming from. I have dropped comments on his other vids where he has made errors (IMO) due to certain specific exceptions that appear in practice (for example his concept of 5+7 compas, or labeling Buleria Larga as a “Solea” melody). For the most part I don’t have a problem, because I understand relative keys and modes (I have tried to point to the simplicity of the Circle of 5ths, but people don’t want to understand this “weird round stuff”).

The reason he says “relative minor” for what we know is Phrygian, is because Phrygian, LIKE DORIAN, from a jazz perspective, is a MINOR MODE, due to the minor third degree. So E Dorian uses F# and C#, E Aeolian uses F# sharp, and E Phrygian uses no sharps or flats, and if you want to add Locrian, it uses a flat 5th, otherwise still considered “minor”. So in key of C major you have two relative major modes (F lydian, G mixolydian) and 4 relative minor modes (D dorian, A Aeolian, E Phrygian, and B Locrian). Since “Dorian” is not considered a “key” he is referring to relative minor (A Aeolian), and the SECONDARY MINOR is E Phrygian. He is basically admitting, without admitting openly, that he views E Phrygian not as a simple relative mode (because he would be leaving out the other TWO minor modes), but as a “key”. I agree with him in this regard, however, as a jazz guy he is not clearly saying THAT specific thing.

Now, I know people’s panties bunch up at “minor mode” because in flamenco we apply a G# to the tonic triad (E Major), then here come out of the wood work all the synthetic scales and Arabic high jazz, etc etc. People need to understand that with KEYS not modes, you have cadences where the tonic chord, major or minor, would have a final major third. Meaning music in A minor will finally end on an A MAJOR chord despite all the rest that happened in the music. (See Bach well temp clavier all the minor key preludes and fugues where you can quantify how many times he ends the minor keys with a major chord). This practice is referred to as a “Picardy Third”, but jazz guys don’t use that terminology, but they otherwise understand that is what is happening with Phrygian in these flamenco cases (assuming they understand flamenco at all). A good example is Miles Davis, I showed recently and zero comments on it, where He and Trane play F naturals melodically, but the D chord the piano plays uses F#….again it occurs as a normal tension over the Eb chord (Eb over a D bass note). So jazz guys know what is going on, but they use their own terminology, or relate it to loose “bluesy” concepts where you get away with whatever “feels right”. So keep in mind, flamenco has its own system in place. If flamenco is what you want to learn, DO THAT. If you later want to understand how or why it operates, in context of western music, then first learn western music (classical jazz, rock, whatever you want). To understand this dude, you need some jazz chops.

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www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 11 2023 19:10:17
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14970
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Flamenco harmony for theory frea... (in reply to Ricardo

In this interview he lays it out basically, three keys, classical and jazz only use two keys, at 8:38.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2023 12:44:24
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1637
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Flamenco harmony for theory frea... (in reply to Ricardo

The 3rd key secondary relative minor. Google says it's not a jazz term. But a term invented by Joe Pass. Anyways, his book looks interesting.

Does this guy want to tell us Andalusian cadence works functionally like a famous I-VI-II-V turnaround in jazz music?

Turnaround in C major key: Cmaj7 Am7 Dm7 G7 (I-VI-II-V)
Turnaround in E flamenco key or Phrygian: Eaddb2 Am7 G7 Fmaj7 (I-IV-bIII-bII)

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2023 22:24:38
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14970
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Flamenco harmony for theory frea... (in reply to devilhand

I pointed out what the guy said, horses mouth. Don’t argue about it further.

Joe Pass wrote a tune called “Paco de Lucia”. He is a freaking Jazz guy using “jazz terms”. I doubt he is thinking the same way as this guy from Cadiz, here is his homage to the Flamenco maestro:



It is in the minor key, obviously, I would like to see his “secondary minor” anything example (EDIT SEE BELOW THE RED IT LINK).

Your Turn arounds with passing chords in (..) that I have added that are typical, and the important one you missed:

C major: C maj7 {(E7) Am7 Dm7 G7, Cmaj7}, etc.

A minor : Am7 (Dm7) G7 Cmaj7} (C7) Fmaj7 (B7alt) {E7b9, Am7, etc.

E Phrygian/Flamenco : E {(E7) Am (Dm7) G7 (C} or C7) F F7 (tritone sub of B7 alt, or Augmented 6th of choice), E, etc.

Maybe it is not clear, but all three “turn arounds” derive from the same progression of 4ths of a shared key signature (weird round stuff). It is absolutely false to continue pushing that such a progression is the BASIS or defining progression, of any of the three specific uses. It is only a shared principle of the nature of music in general. What defines the three keys is ONLY THE FINAL TWO chords, which are the actual “cadence”. G7-C, E7-Am, or F7-E. The end. The rest is filler based on shared notes of the key signature.

Here is a “deep” discussion about the Joe Pass mentality, where several smart guys correctly deduce the term refers to Phrygian (in the example, natural Phrygian scale), in this case A Phrygian relative to F major. The comments are great. But again, NOT what the Guy from Cadiz is on about. The difference is between a SCALE application (Joe Pass example) vs. a FUNCTIONAL KEY CENTER FOR AN ENTIRE PIECE OF MUSIC (Flamenco, Soleá, etc.)!!!!
https://www.reddit.com/r/jazztheory/comments/s391zv/secondary_relative_minor_what_does_this_mean/

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 14 2023 11:51:42
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