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Is this a flaw design?   You are logged in as Guest
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Neotriz

Posts: 143
Joined: Aug. 9 2010
 

Is this a flaw design? 

Hello all
I have a question:
I bought a Jimenez guitar back earlier this October, as shown here: http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=283582&appid=&p=&mpage=2&key=neotriz&tmode=&smode=&s=#283745

Thankfully, I am back in states with the guitar.

That being said, today I wanted to change higher tension on my guitar but my high E string keeps snapping when I reach its tuning.
I noticed that its bridge hole has a metal ring. I talked to a tech friend (not expert on classical/flamenco) and he assume it may be the cause of that metal ring--the string slips.

I've attached a picture for reference

What do you guys think? I dont think I can recall a guitar having a metal ring in its bridge hole.

Any response will be greatly appreciated.

Thank you

Attachment (1)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2016 22:03:48
 
Neotriz

Posts: 143
Joined: Aug. 9 2010
 

RE: Is this a flaw design? (in reply to Neotriz

More info:

I've tried to swap strings with Savarez's S540J. According to specs, it's high E string is .025 diameter.

Changing to a Daddario string with .029 diameter, the guitar is holding well..though that's not the desire string I want to play with.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2016 22:31:50
 
estebanana

Posts: 9411
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Is this a flaw design? (in reply to Neotriz

The edge of the metal tube insert at the opening might have a sharp edge which cuts the string.

Inspect the end of the tube with high magnification and see if it is sharp. Does the tube go all the way through the tie block? The inside edge of the tube, inner part buried in the bridge could also have a metal burr which frays the string. If this is the case it can be polished smooth with a progressive fine sanding of 400-600-800 grade wet and dry paper. The outside is reachable, but if the burr is inside the tube it will require a fine jewelers needle file.

Inspect all around the tie block with magnification and good light and check for a any small area that seems sharp. Check the saddle too.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 9 2016 0:01:12
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Is this a flaw design? (in reply to Neotriz

Is this common? I'm sure it was a bit of work to get those in there so nicely which implies quality but I've never seen such a thing.....

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\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 9 2016 0:55:03
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Is this a flaw design? (in reply to Neotriz

Neotriz,

First of all, good to hear you got the guitar with you home. I hope it wasnt to much of hassle.

No, its not common to put metal things in the bridge, and pesonally I dont understand why they are there. After all, its a place where string vibration is transmitted, but if the owner likes the sound and projection of the guitar, then all is good soundwise.
Leñador, its a piece of cake to drill the holes oversize and stuff in a metal tube.

The snapping: I would find an old metalwound string, stick it through the hole and use it as a kind of file. It doesnt file much, but it could be enough to round the edges and stop the snapping. Anyways, its just a matter of an old string and a bit of time, so it should be worth a try.

And finally, I would cut off the string ends so that they dont scratch the finish on the guitar.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 9 2016 9:00:13
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1693
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Is this a flaw design? (in reply to Neotriz

What Estebanana and Anders said.

The reason I'm replying is to say that I kind of like the idea of the metal tubes. I have repaired several guitars (not made by me) on which the holes had become too big from the strings cutting up into the wood. When this happens, the break over angle at the saddle gets widened which sometimes causes weird buzzes. This method using the metal tubes seems like a great way to prevent that.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2016 2:08:23
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Is this a flaw design? (in reply to Neotriz

Yes, Ethan your obsevations are right but theoretical only.
Using a harder material than wood means that more strain will go on the string and so it will snap easyer and we all know what snapping strings can do. Serious dents and even cracks in the soundboard below the bridge.
So please dont ask me to to put metal tubes in the bridge.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2016 9:07:58
 
keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Is this a flaw design? (in reply to Neotriz

if a tube is required due to wear/damage to a string hole would nylon tubes be better?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2016 13:55:39
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: Is this a flaw design? (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson


Using a harder material than wood means that more strain will go on the string and so it will snap easyer and we all know what snapping strings can do. Serious dents and even cracks in the soundboard below the bridge.


Not trying to provoke an argument but this statement makes no sense to me at all. What possible effect could the material lining the string hole make other than to prevent wear? It strikes me as a good idea.

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John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2016 14:05:28
 
estebanana

Posts: 9411
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Is this a flaw design? (in reply to Neotriz

I think the metal tubes are an interesting concept, I've seen this before,but never done it. That said nylon tubes strike me as an even better idea. But on the other hand, a 12 hole bridge gives a bit less wear to the sting hole on the saddle side because the string is not looped over itself to hold it into place.

Then again a six hole bridge without tubes is a pretty excellent design, after making 12 hole bridges almost exclusively for several years I've switched to using the 6 hole and the 12 hole about 50/50

So if I were going get tubed I think I would try small nylon or graphite tubes, because the tubes are ok, but a million bridges have been built without tubes. Hmm, that makes one think that possibly the whole tube idea is a solution to a problem that does not really exist, or is fixable when it happens. The tubes also look to me as one of those "innovations" that are luthier fussy showoff details, as if to say "my work is more cool that yours because I have lots of swell gew gaws all over my guitars."

To tube or not to tube....

Well we should not talk too seriously about bridge design, we could be in grave danger of actually learning something new....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2016 14:47:42
 
edguerin

Posts: 1591
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Is this a flaw design? (in reply to Neotriz

quote:

To tube or not to tube....


You tube, but Anders doesn't
(Sorry, but couldn't resist ...)

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Ed

El aficionado solitario
Alemania
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2016 15:29:24
 
estebanana

Posts: 9411
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Is this a flaw design? (in reply to Neotriz

iTube, You Tube, we all tube.

Punny

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2016 15:50:01
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3462
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Is this a flaw design? (in reply to Neotriz

Tu-be or not tu-be? That is the question.

Bill

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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2016 17:58:23
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1693
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Is this a flaw design? (in reply to BarkellWH

If all guitars have their tubes tied, then what? Zero population growth?

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Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2016 18:04:43
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3462
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Is this a flaw design? (in reply to constructordeguitarras

quote:

If all guitars have their tubes tied, then what? Zero population growth?


Only if in all cases it is irreversible.

But just let two little Condes slip by, and they will multiply like rabbits!

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2016 18:21:00
 
mmmenk

 

Posts: 54
Joined: Dec. 26 2015
 

RE: Is this a flaw design? (in reply to Neotriz

Was the string breaking or was it slipping the knot? The carbon fiber strings, especially the high e need a special knot to prevent them from slipping. As for the metal bushings in the tie block, I think it is a great idea. I had some stainless steel spring pins, and tried them in the bridge holes and it has been working just fine. They do add some weight to the bridge, which I do not like, so I am now using carbon graphite tubes. Yes, the edges need to be rounded over to prevent any chance of compromising the strings.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2016 18:30:04
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Is this a flaw design? (in reply to jshelton5040

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson


Using a harder material than wood means that more strain will go on the string and so it will snap easyer and we all know what snapping strings can do. Serious dents and even cracks in the soundboard below the bridge.


Not trying to provoke an argument but this statement makes no sense to me at all. What possible effect could the material lining the string hole make other than to prevent wear? It strikes me as a good idea.


When 2 different materials rub against each other there will be wear. The softest of the 2 materials will wear a lot more than the hardest one.
So in this case, nylon will wear a lot faster than some metal and so provoke string snapping.
Its theoretical I know. Its been a while since I rubbed my nylons against any hard metal.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2016 19:10:48
 
mmmenk

 

Posts: 54
Joined: Dec. 26 2015
 

RE: Is this a flaw design? (in reply to Anders Eliasson

Maybe so, I had always felt that way about fret wire, and have avoided using the ultra hard stainless steel that has come on the market. As for the holes in the tie block, the strings will eventually win the battle with the wood, and the holes will need to be bushed and re-drilled. As for the battle of hard vs soft, tell that to the Grand Canyon.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2016 19:40:40
 
beno

Posts: 881
Joined: Nov. 3 2006
From: Hungary

RE: Is this a flaw design? (in reply to Neotriz

Isn't that thing changing the weight of the bridge? Which I understand to be very important? Or what?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2016 22:24:27
 
Stephen Eden

 

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Is this a flaw design? (in reply to Neotriz

I think the metal tubes is a great idea. Execution is of course critical so no sharp edges should be left.

I used to have this trouble with a certain tuner maker. It only effected the top the e as the string was thin enough to break if slightly cut. Once I knew that was the issue I would just use a very fine piece of sand paper to take off the sharp edges and it sound like that is the case.

Anders, if the soft material rubbing against the harder material was the problem I think we would not use bone for nuts and saddles. However if you leave these surfaces sharp they will certainly cut the strings.

Beno, Bridge weight is something to take into consideration in the over all design of a guitar. A few years ago I decided to make my bridges a bit heavier and much prefer the sound I get now to the lighter bridges I used to use. So I guess what I am trying to say a little extra weight could be a good thing.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 11 2016 11:48:38
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Is this a flaw design? (in reply to mmmenk

quote:

As for the battle of hard vs soft, tell that to the Grand Canyon.


Cannot be compared. There´s a continuous flow of water rubbing a porous material that is not being regenerated, but has been there for thousands of years. So the mateial get washed away.

I think that after having read this, that you guys have convinced me. The steel tubes are ok.

But, to put things into perspective, how long does it take to wear out the wooden holes on a 12 hole wooden tieblock?
I had a guitar with 12 holes for 10 years and the holes were like new when i sold it. My feel is that on that particular guitar with an Indian rosewood bridge, the bridge will survive the lifetime of the guitar.

Sometimes (often) the human being invent things in order to invent. But not always does it make things better. That doesnt mean that I´m against progress, not at all, but yes, I dont like progress for progress´s sake.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 11 2016 12:30:56
 
Stephen Eden

 

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Is this a flaw design? (in reply to Neotriz

I think we like to insure things last rather than hope . I have a load of repairs in the workshop at the moment 3 of them are showing signs of wear in the bridge holes and none are over 6 years old.

I don't think everyone will rush out and do it however I do see more and more builders trying out different solutions to this problem.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 11 2016 15:30:00
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: Is this a flaw design? (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

The snapping: I would find an old metal wound string, stick it through the hole and use it as a kind of file.


Excellent idea..I would have been slow to think of that; Bravo!.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 11 2016 16:42:03
 
mmmenk

 

Posts: 54
Joined: Dec. 26 2015
 

RE: Is this a flaw design? (in reply to Neotriz

The holes in the wooden bridge can become a problem. When players want to get a lower action, the first option is to lower the saddle and get the strings closer to soundboard and the fretboard. Many times the bridge is as low as it will go without some serious surgery. Playing action is a real concern to musicians.
They need to be relaxed and comfortable with the instrument. But wooden objects will change over time and tend to bend from the string tension.
So when you have a guitar with an action so high that you can slide a cigarette under the strings at the 12th fret, how much fun can you have with that situation?
If you can not lower the strings at the saddle, and the break angle toward the tie block is close to zero, what can you do? Turn the instrument into a slide guitar and play the blues, or Hawaiian music.
This is a daily concern in the repair shop.
The best option, but very expensive is to reset the angle of the neck.
Next best is to slip the endblock and pull the neck into position and reglue the back, also very expensive and not the best way to deal with a valuable guitar.
If there is any wood left on the bridge, the thing to do is to cut down the bridge, even remove the tie block decoration and lower the wood, bush and redrill the holes to get closer to the soundboard and provide down angle for the string escapement, cut the saddle slot lower, reshape that part of the bridge and reglue the tie block decoration and refinish the bridge and fit a new saddle. Sometimes that works. But be aware that in the design of the instrument, there is a sweet spot as to how high the strings are above the soundboard. So resetting the neck is hard to consider, but may be the best.
When builders and repair persons are confronted with this dilemma on a daily basis, we try to be creative and come up with positive solutions.
One is to bush the string holes to help them survive and maintain the original design and structure. If not with metal, then ossify the wood with chemicals, like CA, a penetrating adhesive that sets hard as a rock.
In terms of progress, we are all in the same boat, trying to survive and get along. It all adds up to a forward momentum. Live for today, in the moment,
and make our plans with hope for a better next day.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 11 2016 21:41:32
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Is this a flaw design? (in reply to Neotriz

I agree

You forgot one thing with respect of restoring breakangle on a 6 hole tie block:
Drilling an extra set of holes to make a 12 hole tie block. Using 12 holes more or less doubles break angle and strongly reduces wear on the tie block.

So my question is why make a 6 hole tie block. Because there are 12 holes, you are not obliged to use them. You can string your instrument the way you want.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2016 7:25:59
 
mmmenk

 

Posts: 54
Joined: Dec. 26 2015
 

RE: Is this a flaw design? (in reply to Neotriz

Andres,
You have a very inquisitive mind. You have a need to know the solutions.
So here is an answer for your question. To double the holes in the bridge will double the trouble for the drill and the person that must do the work.
This response may seem odd, but you need to spend some time drilling precision holes in a small block of rosewood using a .065" drill bit, and do it all day long.
Believe me, you do not really want to go into that black hole.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2016 7:53:49
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Is this a flaw design? (in reply to Neotriz

I have seen such tubes on pics many years ago and it looked like a good thing to me, though hardly necessary I believe with reasonable guitar use.

Do you think the minute slip from settling strings to be the cause of worn out tie blocks?

In the small number of cases that I noticed enlarged holes on pre-owned guitars, from what I think to recall the wear was only with the ones of the metal wound strings.

I assume it to come through insensible users who for one are applying methods in which needlessly the whole string gets threaded through the tie block (like I used to do as beginner), secondly who pull the string out so unfeelingly that the tie blocks wood gets grated.

Some are just rough in general / maybe better at playing the kettle-drum instead.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2016 10:26:25
 
Ricardo

Posts: 15039
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Is this a flaw design? (in reply to mmmenk

quote:

ORIGINAL: mmmenk

The holes in the wooden bridge can become a problem. When players want to get a lower action, the first option is to lower the saddle and get the strings closer to soundboard and the fretboard. Many times the bridge is as low as it will go without some serious surgery. Playing action is a real concern to musicians.
They need to be relaxed and comfortable with the instrument. But wooden objects will change over time and tend to bend from the string tension.
So when you have a guitar with an action so high that you can slide a cigarette under the strings at the 12th fret, how much fun can you have with that situation?
If you can not lower the strings at the saddle, and the break angle toward the tie block is close to zero, what can you do? Turn the instrument into a slide guitar and play the blues, or Hawaiian music.
This is a daily concern in the repair shop.
The best option, but very expensive is to reset the angle of the neck.
Next best is to slip the endblock and pull the neck into position and reglue the back, also very expensive and not the best way to deal with a valuable guitar.
If there is any wood left on the bridge, the thing to do is to cut down the bridge, even remove the tie block decoration and lower the wood, bush and redrill the holes to get closer to the soundboard and provide down angle for the string escapement, cut the saddle slot lower, reshape that part of the bridge and reglue the tie block decoration and refinish the bridge and fit a new saddle. Sometimes that works. But be aware that in the design of the instrument, there is a sweet spot as to how high the strings are above the soundboard. So resetting the neck is hard to consider, but may be the best.
When builders and repair persons are confronted with this dilemma on a daily basis, we try to be creative and come up with positive solutions.
One is to bush the string holes to help them survive and maintain the original design and structure. If not with metal, then ossify the wood with chemicals, like CA, a penetrating adhesive that sets hard as a rock.
In terms of progress, we are all in the same boat, trying to survive and get along. It all adds up to a forward momentum. Live for today, in the moment,
and make our plans with hope for a better next day.


Odd you didn't suggest simplest solution IMO, to lower action while maintain or raise saddle. Replace fingerboard. Perhaps even tall frets would do the trick, but a hair thicker fingerboard would make a big difference. Basically it's reverse of the fix required to do the opposite...maintain action but reduce bone saddle, luthiers just plane down the ebony.

As a player, I hate the 12 hole tie block thing...looks bad and not fun. IMO.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2016 12:08:54
 
RobJe

 

Posts: 732
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Is this a flaw design? (in reply to Neotriz

OK – the original poster received some good advice, but I hope we are not progressing towards metal tubes for all. Anyone repairing guitars is bound to see cases of severe abuse, but out in the rest of the world there are lots of happy well played guitars with reasonably careful owners and very little wear in the bridge holes.

I checked today – 60s Conde played hard enough to have needed a re-fret but no visible wear on bridge holes – 70s Reyes very slight wear – 90s M Bellido no sign of wear.

Now it’s time for an old person’s rant! I wouldn’t rush to buy a guitar with metal tubes in the bridge, a zero fret, a truss rod, or a soundport. If it wasn’t for my arthritic fingers I would stick to pegs as well!

Here is a picture of a Santos with perfect bridge holes!

Rob


[image][/image]



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2016 13:20:05
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: Is this a flaw design? (in reply to RobJe

Too bad the Santos top had runout otherwise the bridge might have come off clean.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2016 14:31:38
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