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Initially, with the Johnny-Head-in-the-Air premise, superstition may appear as a matter floating within its discrete metaphysical realm, meaning no harm to physical reality and ranging just in the significance of everyone´s legitimate freedom of thought.
When you are a bit more aware than that, then you may start realizing how actually superstition does effect reality outside of an believing individual´s imagination. How it creates precondition and prejudice. How categorizing by unrelated criteria, as with chronological data in astrology, or morphology in methods of characterization and similar lump sum (women that dress "provocative" are nymphomanias, those who smoke in the streets are indecent and thelike nonesense) leads to discrimination.
Further up the road you start realizing how superstition is undermining the substantial human challenge of understanding reality, and how actually misunderstanding reality tends to produce mistreatment and injustice on principle. Figuring how harmful and destructive misunderstanding is, and how much worse even the willing arbitrariness of superstition.
One more step ahead and you realize how trillions of humans and uncountable numbers of fellow creature have fallen victim to the reckless concept of superstition. How most cruel of crimes are conducted on the arbitrary altar of this archaic phenomenon.
And when reached at the insight of this mental venom you look around and you see billions of children deprived of their natural right to gentleness and shelter, exposed to paradox irrationality and orthodoxy, made to become emotionally lost and self-righteous ogres themselves.
Individuals who will live from bigotry, envy and hate. Venting inequity continuously throughout their failed existence. Some even so driven from irrationality that they be cowardly cutting off heads of pinioned fellow men, and at that even be proud of being such berserk.
You see how fellow creatures being kept in agony and torture, all derived from the estranging principle of superstition.
However, in case of having difficulties of making out the coherence between superstition and brute, more obvious examples might help you see the connection.
Be it the Chinese medicines superstition that is currently causing decimation of wild-life world-wide, so that traditionally impotence dreading China men may find rare species limbs in their bowel.
Or be it the example with human albinos in East Africa. Sometime in the very early new millennium some reckless African faith healer ( obviously inspired by Chinese methods) came up with the claim that consuming pulverized human albino bone would be helping prolonging life and against diverse diseases.
That led to corresponding offerings in the market and sky rocketing prices. In Tansania families with albino members are since experiencing invasions in their homes by groups of men with machetes and axes who then for example will before their eyes either cut their father into pieces and drag away the limbs, or chop off children´s arms or legs alive.
In the aftermath guarded schools have been opened for albino children in attempt to keep them from being attacked and amputated. People bring their albino kids to there either for to have them protected, or - much rather - to get rid of them for good / leaving them orphaned. Because of another version of local superstition claiming that albinos were to be ghosts and that they would be bringing misfortune over their surroundings.
Superstition is no small deal, nor peripheral matter of individual choice. It is in fact among the main misfortune causing plagues on the planet.
No matter what type of it, it deserves zero tolerance, as superstition on principle is sabotaging our attempts to understand the world and shifting us towards the bovine and crude end of intellect.
It should be fought on any level on principle.
Ruphus
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Wrapping oneself into aluminium foil could deflect the lightning and return it to sender, ... for at least as long as physical reality won´t count.
I too liked your post in the logic / debating-thread a lot, but refrained from posting feedback for similar reasons like yours here.
Anyway, certainly high time for drawing attention to this topic globally. It is just too much of a nasty destructive monster to keep it tolerated the way it is.
While opening VPN and waiting for youtube, I was actually seriously wondering what that could be. And when the YT-side opened -> big grin, the more as that music brings back so many good memories of the universum´s musical peak. (What a time that was! >sigh<)
Ruphus
--
PS:
On the dark side:
Anyone seen two days ago, how berserks in Iraq armed with pneumatic hammers destroyed thousands of years old statues in a museum?! I was cringing and holding my head. Can´t even describe it.
RE: A Word on Superstition (in reply to gj Michelob)
quote:
ORIGINAL: gj Michelob
LOL.... and it only affects those who believe it will!
That in fact is exactly the point in the sense of: If it only were that way. If it were that way it would be simply to everyone´s own business whether to be superstitious or not.
Unfortunately, however the outcome of superstition nearly always does affect others, fellow species and environment. All too often even very drastically. That is why this phenomenon should matter to educated people, and be target of elimination.
Anything that counters pragmatic understanding ought to be opposed. These days more than ever.
Unfortunately, however the outcome of superstition nearly always does affect others, fellow species and environment.
You are absolutely correct here, Ruphus. The example of Chinese belief in the medicinal properties of tiger parts and rhino horn is instructive. It has in large part (along with loss of habitat) resulted in the catastrophic decline in the population of these two magnificent creatures.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: A Word on Superstition (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
The example of Chinese belief in the medicinal properties of tiger parts and rhino horn is instructive. It has in large part (along with loss of habitat) resulted in the catastrophic decline in the population of these two magnificent creatures.
Bill
There is an alternative narrative, that this has been an enduring strain of fledgling capitalism striving for life in a repressive socialist regime.
Obviously I don't believe that but the select band of retiring individuals who do are so shy that it seems only fair to be generous and speak for them once in a while.
Posts: 3470
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: A Word on Superstition (in reply to guitarbuddha)
quote:
There is an alternative narrative, that this has been an enduring strain of fledgling capitalism striving for life in a repressive socialist regime.
Except that, historically, the alternative narrative you suggest does not hold up under scrutiny. Some of the worst environmental degradation imaginable occurred under the socialist, command economies of the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe. Witness the disappearance of the Aral Sea because of re-channeling of rivers for growing cotton, the soot-blackened towns of Rumania, etc. Capitalism does not have a lock on environmental and species degradation. It has occurred equally under socialism. But this has all been discussed in previous threads over the years, and we needn't go over well-plowed territory again.
With regard to the issue at hand, Ruphus's point about superstition having an adverse effect beyond those holding to it is spot-on, particularly in the Chinese case regarding the medicinal properties of tiger parts and rhino horn. If the superstition were not present there would be no demand. And if there were no demand, there would be no poaching.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Aside from the Chinese traditional concernes about their male´s potency, what adds to the consumption of rare species is the aimed at demonstrattion of pecuniary potency.
The more expensive (with tiger, snow leopard parts and rhino horns probably leading the price list) the animal parts, the more they are sought for and served by vain parvenus.
And one of the reasons why the Chinese grovernment isn´t halting this matter while they could control it so easily, is that the administration themselves often belong to the vain parvenus . (Just weeks ago it was reported that rare and by government protected giant salamander had been served on a banket of some showy provincial officials.)
You wouldn´t think who and how is profiteer in todays dictatures. You thought at least clerics (other than catholic ones) and militaries would not be among the greedy off-creamers?
Over here those and the paramilitaries are sucking from the people / country and skimming off in ways you just wouldn´t believe. Yesterday it was written that Bill Gates was to be the richest man again. Forbes has no clue, really.
RE: A Word on Superstition (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
With regard to the issue at hand, Ruphus's point about superstition having an adverse effect beyond those holding to it is spot-on, particularly in the Chinese case regarding the medicinal properties of tiger parts and rhino horn. If the superstition were not present there would be no demand. And if there were no demand, there would be no poaching.
Bill
This is a pretty standard definition of market forces. There is a symbiotic relationship between superstition and capitalism not a parasitical one since both philosophies prophet from each other.
I often bemoan superstition on this forum but noone ever finds medically and mechanically unproven corrective training shoes or sports drink emotive enough to inspire much exchange.
And anyway buying fancy things makes people feel special whether it be a rabbits foot a new brand of strings a viagra or a rhino horn.
I don't have a problem with capitalism. It is a shame though that discussions about it tend to be dominated by fundamentalists.
Posts: 3470
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: A Word on Superstition (in reply to guitarbuddha)
quote:
This is a pretty standard definition of market forces. There is a symbiotic relationship between superstition and capitalism not a parasitical one since both philosophies prophet from each other. I often bemoan superstition on this forum but noone ever finds medically and mechanically unproven corrective training shoes or sports drink emotive enough to inspire much exchange. And anyway buying fancy things makes people feel special whether it be a rabbits foot a new brand of strings a viagra or a rhino horn. I don't have a problem with capitalism. It is a shame though that discussions about it tend to be dominated by fundamentalists.
My point was that environmental and species degradation occur under both capitalism and socialism. I was not defending capitalism's record here; rather, I was suggesting that it is no worse in this realm of activity than socialism or any other "ism." I used the Soviet Union and eastern Europe as examples. Chinese medicinal superstition has been a driving force for the extraction if tiger parts and rhino horn long before the current capitalist economy took hold under a communist authoritarian dictatorship.
I don't know what you mean by discussions about capitalism being dominated by fundamentalists. To make the case for capitalism is not to be "fundamentalist," any more than to make the case for socialism is to be "fundamentalist." In any case, to draw a dichotomy between capitalism and socialism in discussing which is more harmful to the environment and species is neither helpful nor enlightening. Environmental and species degradation occurs under both systems. The culprits, in large part, are industrialization, post-industrial economic activity, rapacious land-use policies, and overpopulation. And, yes, superstition that requires the sacrifice of endangered species in order to be sated.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: A Word on Superstition (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
In any case, to draw a dichotomy between capitalism and socialism in discussing which is more harmful to the environment and species is neither helpful nor enlightening. Environmental and species degradation occurs under both systems. The culprits in large part are industrialization, rapacious land-use policies, and overpopulation.
Bill
I drew no dichotomy Bill. I can gladly confirm however that the above quote is in one hundred percent in accordance with my views.
Superstition is not a stand alone thing in my opinion it has to be nurtured. Whether one sees a quack or a spiritualist as evil or deluded they are first and foremost entrepreneurs.
With regards to fundamentalism there is another element to be considered, tribalism. Objections which may be discussed openly between members of a tribe concerning the more fundamentalist amongst their ranks can lead to consternation, inappropriate extrapolations and the endowment of unsubstantiated motivation when the person touching on the same areas has been defined as 'not belonging'.
RE: A Word on Superstition (in reply to guitarbuddha)
quote:
ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha
Whether one sees a quack or a spiritualist as evil or deluded they are first and foremost entrepreneurs.
Very true. But I assume that a lot of superstition also comes simply from the plain psychological desire to present oneself as "in the know" and make a sociological career. (As the one-eyed among the blind.) Hence, spreading BS simply for matters of show-off and narcissism. (Under the motto: "Lets see how I can impress these dumb heads".) As intellectually lazy as ignorants commonly are, their vanity in the same time is not reduced one bit.
Posts: 3470
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: A Word on Superstition (in reply to guitarbuddha)
quote:
Superstition is not a stand alone thing in my opinion it has to be nurtured. Whether one sees a quack or a spiritualist as evil or deluded they are first and foremost entrepreneurs.
With that we are one hundred percent agreed. And such entrepreneurs exist in every economic system and in every form of human social organization, from the most advanced Western society to the most primitive tribal society. Whether they be spiritualists, priests, imams, shamans, or purveyors of endangered animal parts for sexual potency and snake oil salesmen, they are all entrepreneurs dedicated to ensuring their place of privilege within their society. Throughout history much power has been maintained and riches acquired via the institutionalization of superstition.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Very true. But I assume that a lot of superstition also comes simply from the plain psychological desire to present oneself as "in the know" and make a sociological career.
(As the one-eyed among the blind.) Hence, spreading BS simply for matters of show-off and narcissism. (Under the motto: "Lets see how I can impress these dumb heads".)
Ruphus
I think that before there were many people contemplating a career in sociology a witchdoctor or wise man or witch or whatever was a receptacle for generations of folk wisdom.
And in order to make the contemplation of some of the tasks that the wise man recommended such as drink this disgusting liquid (aspirin/quinine etc) a narrative had to be constructed to enlist the compliance of the uneducated for their own good.
Of course not everything that can be sold whether as a story or as a physical object is genuinely for the good of the purchaser.
If I am the sociologist that you are concerned with then I am flattered and surprised. The cheque has been a very long time coming as has the adulation. You see my ideas don't really sell, probably because selling is not my strong point. But don't worry I wont be switching to rhino horn or albino babies or the exportation of political systems of any stripe. Hell I can't even bear to encourage the ignorance that I might exploit in other musicians.
I havn´t understood what you wrote, but can tell that I have been misunderstood with the words "make a sociological career". With that I meant the rise of an individual within a group´s sociological ranking.
You could read your post both in the way you describe and also as a little dig at smart Alecs in general. As a fully paid up member of the Smarty Pants clan I responded to defend the honour of my tribe.
Whether one sees a quack or a spiritualist as evil or deluded they are first and foremost entrepreneurs.
Very true. But I assume that a lot of superstition also comes simply from the plain psychological desire to present oneself as "in the know" and make a sociological career. (As the one-eyed among the blind.) Hence, spreading BS simply for matters of show-off and narcissism. (Under the motto: "Lets see how I can impress these dumb heads".) As intellectually lazy as ignorants commonly are, their vanity in the same time is not reduced one bit.
Ruphus
No, superstition arises when really bizarre coincidences or events occur that can't be explained logically and makes your hair stand on end. If more than a single individual be involved, the superstion strength is increased exponentially. Predicted repetition will make it worse and worse etc.
RE: A Word on Superstition (in reply to guitarbuddha)
quote:
ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha
As a fully paid up member of the Smarty Pants clan I responded to defend the honour of my tribe.
That ought to be one of the funniest sentences I read on the board. hehehe
I can feel with you though. I seem to be telling things to people they don´t want to know all the time. ( To be true, most of the time in life they appear interested in the info bits, but I am certain to be appearing like a smart ass to distant folks often enough.)
RE: A Word on Superstition (in reply to guitarbuddha)
Ricardo,
For most of common examples I am rather amazed about the patent cases in which superstition is prevailing despite very obvious reality.
Even though, I know what you mean with "can´t be explained" from many subjectively mysterious appearing occurances in my own life, I also know that pretty much any mystic case that scientist went after in the end turned out some profane background, and so I am certain it would be with the "unexplainable" cases in my life as well.
But even if we assumed that there were sorts of metaphysics going on, the victims of superstition would certainly appreciate if we at least put an end to the superstition that clearly is just that / help spread the truth.
Just compare the harm of educating Chinese about the medical effects of creatin, to the cruelty of chopping an extincting 5 ton animal for 2 kg of his useless horn.
Such paradox uselessness is being so much more the case than actually hard to tell phenomenons.
And not at last: A superstition grounded on unexplainable conditions still remains superstition, because it still is speculation / wild claim without prove. After all the condition is unexplainable as we said.
No, superstition arises when really bizarre coincidences or events occur that can't be explained logically and makes your hair stand on end. If more than a single individual be involved, the superstion strength is increased exponentially. Predicted repetition will make it worse and worse etc.
TV shows like 'Ghost Hunters', 'Most Haunted', 'Psychic Detective','The Ghost Whisperer' are full of 'really bizarre coincidences' and events that 'can't be explained logically and make your hair stand on end'. Each week a new set of characters are introduced and 'the superstitious strength is increased exponentially (and the predictable) repetition will make it worse and worse'.
They are most definitely not making these shows for love.
Maybe they have in fact supplanted the old school withchdoctors who would say. 'I am closer to this mysterious realm than you because my father and his father before him explored it with our special powers which you will never fully understand'. But much remains the same camera tricks/CGI and fantastical testimonials stand in well for smoke, mirrors and hallucinogens.
My nephew asked me if I thought I would ever see an alien, I said no. He looked blankly at me as I explained why (I get a lot of that) and replied that he thought that he would see one. His answer when I asked why ?
'Because I am an optomist'.
But he has seen Aliens already......... on TV I went to the toilet and hit my head off the wall.
No, superstition arises when really bizarre coincidences or events occur that can't be explained logically and makes your hair stand on end.
That, in part, is how religions have historically arisen, leading to a priestly caste that itself uses superstition and belief to maintain its position of power, either absolute or as an adjunct to the secular authority that uses it as a source of legitimacy.
But we've come a long way from Chinese belief in the medicinal benefits of tiger parts and rhino horn.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: A Word on Superstition (in reply to guitarbuddha)
I recently attended a soiree at my daughter's piano teacher's house. Perhaps twenty people--they gathered around and I gave a mini-concert for perhaps half an hour. Afterwards, the group split up into people strumming and blowing on a harmonica, Neil Young covers around a fire and a few in the music room trying to play jazz from a Fake Book. It turns out most of the folks at the party were from a UFO convention that had been held locally. One of them was an author who said he had written eleven books on UFOs and alien abduction. He was dressed in a white blazer and wore a clerical collar. At some point, the group around the fire began discussing the alien plans for us and what they really wanted. I escaped and tried my hand at messing up Caravan and Insensatez on an unplugged Cordoba A/E while the teacher's grand piano banged out chords and improvisations.
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