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johnnefastis

Posts: 633
Joined: Jan. 10 2012
 

Sevillanas Compas base 

Hi there,

So with more restaurant gigs ahead the time has come no try to nail Sevillanas. To be honest
I have put it off because its not my favourite Palo but its fun and always goes down well.

So I am in search for a really good rhythmic base and there seems to be so much variation.

I have Paco Pena's Torque Flamenco and Juan Martins El Arte. I find Juan Martin's the
most straightforward but these guys use the pinky which I stopped a while back.

I am happy to play those simple old picado coplas but just want to nail a nice compas.

I also have Moraitos Encuentro and a few others that seem pretty different...

Paco's Cobre is my favourite but I am not quite sure how he fingering it. Seems to be lots of down strokes
and golpes with the pulgar and galloping i and a.

Anyway if anyone has any videos, links, suggestions that would great.

Cheers

Simon
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2015 7:53:30
 
Blondie#2

 

Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 14 2010
 

RE: Sevillanas Compas base (in reply to johnnefastis

Jason has a nice pattern here (includes tab in the main video) and actually a great Sevillanas for solo guitar as you don't have all those 'naked' picado copla melodies which IMO really need another guitar;
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2015 8:18:47
 
johnnefastis

Posts: 633
Joined: Jan. 10 2012
 

RE: Sevillanas Compas base (in reply to johnnefastis

Ah thats great thanks Blondie.

I think I may have seen the main video a while back but seeing it slowly is really nice.

That compas is nice it sounds a little more groovy than some of the older stuff.

I actually quite like the naked melodies with a bit of dancing and palmas. Ramzi has a nice video
of harmonizing one of them too.



Cheers
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2015 8:25:05
 
Blondie#2

 

Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 14 2010
 

RE: Sevillanas Compas base (in reply to johnnefastis

quote:

ORIGINAL: johnnefastis

Ah thats great thanks Blondie.

I think I may have seen the main video a while back but seeing it slowly is really nice.

That compas is nice it sounds a little more groovy than some of the older stuff.


Yeah watch the counted one too if you don't get what he's doing in terms of the compas/beats, then count it out in sixes against Paco Pena to see the difference.

I think the galloping rasgueado is a must In Sevillanas to give it that light aire (either IAI or as Jason does it here, P(Up) AI. Aso the old stuff like Paco pena is all on the beat - bam, bam , bam, whereas modern players play off the beat a little (like the upstrokes in Jason's), that's what makes it groovy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: johnnefastis
I actually quite like the naked melodies with a bit of dancing and palmas.


Ah right, yes - sorry I thought you meant you would be playing this solo in restaurants. Yeah I used to do the Paco Pena Sevillanas por baile.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2015 9:13:28
 
johnnefastis

Posts: 633
Joined: Jan. 10 2012
 

RE: Sevillanas Compas base (in reply to johnnefastis

Oh thats great Blondie. I found the whole set on YouTube now.

With that and the traditional Juan Martin ones I should be good to go.

Cheers

Simon
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2015 10:06:23
 
rombsix

Posts: 7865
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Sevillanas Compas base (in reply to johnnefastis

quote:

Ramzi has a nice video of harmonizing one of them too.




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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2015 13:26:01
 
johnnefastis

Posts: 633
Joined: Jan. 10 2012
 

RE: Sevillanas Compas base (in reply to johnnefastis

quote:

I think the galloping rasgueado is a must In Sevillanas to give it that light aire (either IAI or as Jason does it here, P(Up) AI. Aso the old stuff like Paco pena is all on the beat - bam, bam , bam, whereas modern players play off the beat a little (like the upstrokes in Jason's), that's what makes it groovy.


Just comparing Jason's to old stuff he really emphasises the first beat of the bar. So if you are thinking in 6s 1 and 4 are really clear.

But in the old material 4 seems to be less emphasised, and though it's less contra its hard to follow . I think that with the combination of the chord change just behind the accent is what's making it confusing for me.

Cheers
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2015 7:19:11
 
Blondie#2

 

Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 14 2010
 

RE: Sevillanas Compas base (in reply to johnnefastis

quote:

ORIGINAL: johnnefastis
Just comparing Jason's to old stuff he really emphasises the first beat of the bar. So if you are thinking in 6s 1 and 4 are really clear.

But in the old material 4 seems to be less emphasised, and though it's less contra its hard to follow . I think that with the combination of the chord change just behind the accent is what's making it confusing for me.



Probably best not to talk in bars as we could be talking about different things!

Couple of thoughts that might help-

As I understand it, Sevillanas accent is felt in 3s throughout, so that's accents on every beat one if you are counting in 3s, or beats 1 and 4 if you count it in sixes. That's what this guy is saying here too;
http://www.ravennaflamenco.com/articles/comp2.html

However, when listening/comparing guitarists you need to know where in the compas the guitarist is actually picking up the rhythm cycle at the start of each section - if he's picking it up on beat 2 (or 5) you'll get two beats then an accent. That's what Paco Pena is doing here for example:


..so he's starting the guitar rhythm a beat later in the compas than Jason, hence no accent on the first downstroke.

You can hear Paco clearly marking in 3s where he can (eg 43s in), sometimes the technique he is using makes it difficult to always get that golpe in there.

But yeah the second chord change (back to tonic) happens on beat 3 ahead of the accent, which is a weird one to tap your foot to and get your head round (Fandangos DH has the same weird feeling).
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2015 11:46:21
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Sevillanas Compas base (in reply to johnnefastis

I like to think 3's for sevillanas. I hate playing most sevillanas but student dancers LOVE it so I'm stuck doing it because that's who I play for.... There are some cool ones but those are not the ones they want. Seems like they want them as close to the Mexican hat dance as they can get, makes me nuts lolol.
This is a decent resource for basics:
http://www.ravennaflamenco.com/articles/comp2.html
EDIT: oops, already posted, sorry Blondie!

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\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2015 14:51:05
 
Blondie#2

 

Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 14 2010
 

RE: Sevillanas Compas base (in reply to Leñador

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leñador
there are some cool ones but those are not the ones they want. Seems like they want them as close to the Mexican hat dance as they can get, makes me nuts lolol.
This is a decent resource for basics:
http://www.ravennaflamenco.com/articles/comp2.html
EDIT: oops, already posted, sorry Blondie!


No worries - mind pointing me at those cool ones you mention? Apart from Jason's two on youtube and Moraito's which are mostly just a bit too tough and syncopated, I struggle to find anything that playable that works well on one guitar (i.e no cante) that sounds fresh.

(sorry for thread hijack Simon!)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2015 16:57:03
 
Ricardo

Posts: 15032
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Sevillanas Compas base (in reply to johnnefastis

quote:

ORIGINAL: johnnefastis

quote:

I think the galloping rasgueado is a must In Sevillanas to give it that light aire (either IAI or as Jason does it here, P(Up) AI. Aso the old stuff like Paco pena is all on the beat - bam, bam , bam, whereas modern players play off the beat a little (like the upstrokes in Jason's), that's what makes it groovy.


Just comparing Jason's to old stuff he really emphasises the first beat of the bar. So if you are thinking in 6s 1 and 4 are really clear.

But in the old material 4 seems to be less emphasised, and though it's less contra its hard to follow . I think that with the combination of the chord change just behind the accent is what's making it confusing for me.

Cheers


Well, it is not about old or new, it is about the speed it needs to go. When it is slower you can play off the accents more (1 or 4 being your accent or beat), but when it is fast you need to pronounce the beat heavily as jason is doing. Some really fast sevillanas don't even stop, they keep going with no break and the accents drive it forward.

Another way to see it is that on tonic chord (not sure how you think of the meter whether the beat starts on 1 or 4 of 6 beats) the measure can have a sort of secondary accent on the 2nd beat (just like fandangos), such that the golpe and rasgueado can be thought of the pick up THAT accent. That is why you can play OFF or after the down beat accent with a faster rasgueado...because you are truly accentuating the 2nd beat there.

Here is how I think of it...using ramzi's A major progression

E-E7-A/A-A-A repeat
123/456....

So 1 and 4 have a strong rhythmic accent or base. But there is harmonic rhythm against that that is accents on 1,3, 5 across the bar line. That is why you can play off of accent 4...to put an emphasis on the tonic chord at count 5. LIke I said before, when going fast or not stopping, we really need to feel that 4 accent strong. IF there is a stop, or a break, between coplas...you come IN on the count 5 OR you can come in on count 4 with rasgueado (as jason does). IT is also for this reason (break and come in relative to the rest of the coplas) that many folks count in reverse of my example, counting the start not on 4 but count that as 1. In other words, Jason is starting on 4 for me, but to others he is starting right on 1.

Hope that makes sense.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2015 17:34:13
 
johnnefastis

Posts: 633
Joined: Jan. 10 2012
 

RE: Sevillanas Compas base (in reply to johnnefastis

Thanks all

Blondie, Leñador that site is a really good explanation.

Thanks Ricardo that is really great info that I will keep going back to. It makes sense what you
say about the speed and playing off the beats. Maybe some of the old ones I have been listening
too are just really fast.

I was trying to get to grips with the 6 thing just cause thats how the dancers I work with talk
about it. Having read Ricardo's post now I am not sure I want to go there.

Looking at Juan Martin's book I am now even more confused. He numbers it like this but I thought the
falsetta would start on a 1 or 4 with a lead in of one beat. He starts it on a 3 ?

Thanks again for this I guess I should get cracking and upload a video.

Cheers
Simon



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2015 18:38:32
 
johnnefastis

Posts: 633
Joined: Jan. 10 2012
 

RE: Sevillanas Compas base (in reply to johnnefastis

Hey Len,

You gotta love a bit of Sevillanas... Surely your dancers would love to dance to this.



Does anyone know if there is any live footage of Paco playing it. Just found cover versions.

Cheers
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2015 18:47:08
 
Mark2

Posts: 1908
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Sevillanas Compas base (in reply to johnnefastis

Best advice I ever got re sevillanas was to watch the Saura movie. By the time the movie is over, you will understand the common elements of different styles and know the rhythm. As far as Paco's El Cobre, I used to play the first and third ones all the time for dance, but could never get the 2nd and fourth ones good enough. I don't think there is live footage because some of them are using different capo positions if I recall. First and third ones are capo two, but second one has the capo on three. Also, I believe the first three have the sixth string tuned to D but the fourth one does not. That's likely why I did the first and third ones. Same tuning and capo position. I don't think on my best day I could have done justice to the last one anyway. There is a transcription in standard notation in a japanese book of Paco's music called "La guitarra de Paco de Lucia"
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2015 1:03:07
 
Ricardo

Posts: 15032
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Sevillanas Compas base (in reply to johnnefastis

The score you showed has the harmonic rhythm I described earlier (1,3,5 as quater notes of a bar of 6 eighth notes) but the counting is starting the second beat of the intro as count 1. Pretty messed up, but I never delt with dancers counting this, maybe some do it that way? Anyway, the counting translates against what i was saying in above post such that Jason starts on their count 3, not 1 as I said. The math all works out.

PS I just checked with a dancer and she counts like I described early about jason's vid, he starts on her count 1. So the score has the count a beat late ..... the salida should start on count 4 NOT 3. Also I think the meter should reflect the BEAT not the harmonic rhythm.

Ricardo

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2015 1:18:53
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Sevillanas Compas base (in reply to johnnefastis

quote:

No worries - mind pointing me at those cool ones you mention?

Kai Narezo has a nice one, Moraitos is great as you mentioned and I like Nino Miguels.....haven't heard much other ones I love.....I can tolerate the minor key cante ones like puerto de toledo and mira la cara cara but I'd never listen to it on my own.

quote:

ou gotta love a bit of Sevillanas... Surely your dancers would love to dance to this.

It's good of course but I don't think I have the patients to learn such complicated sevillanas, maybe the first one as Mark said, that may not be too tough...They always want the cante ones though and then someone always makes an attempt at singing it lolol I knew the Sabicas one from the Ravenna website and they all said "It's too complicated, the beat is not obvious enough for us to stay together" I sighed and went back to playing Me case con un enano........

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2015 3:23:02
 
johnnefastis

Posts: 633
Joined: Jan. 10 2012
 

RE: Sevillanas Compas base (in reply to johnnefastis

quote:

(sorry for thread hijack Simon!)


No worries Blondie I didn't even notice and would love to see more great Sevillanas on the page.

Ricardo thanks so much for spending all that time writing this stuff down. It pretty much makes sense now, the two starting points for 6 plus Juan Martin's weird shifting was starting to make my head spin.

So just to clear up any confusion. You count it in the same way as Jason here. And sometimes dancers call the 1 a 4 and start from there.



Cheers

Simon
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2015 9:42:33
 
jmb

Posts: 119
Joined: Oct. 14 2014
From: Vallecas - Madrid - Spain

RE: Sevillanas Compas base (in reply to johnnefastis

'Las sevillanas' is a special palo. In the first half of the XX century were not included in flamenco. They are the classical and regional folk from Seville and lots of people know to dance a basic sevillas in Spain (and in Japan). For a Spanish they sound a little bit out from flamenco and they are very close to the seguidillas manchegas.

In Sevilla They dance for hours in her annual festival: 'La Feria de Abril' and there are specialiced groups of sevillanas that every year sing new pieces. In these groups guitarists sing and play at the same time keeping the basic compas with rasgueados. The most usual is that they sing very classic sevillanas.

Some of them are:

"Mirala Cara a Cara"
"No te vayas todavía"
"Sevilla tiene un color especial"

There are lots o videos with people from Sevilla explaining how to play the basic sevillanas and what, is more important, the sevillanas that all people konow in Sevilla.

Thses sevillanas are coral and usually have not any picado (as fandangos festeros), alzapuas or so, but they are the true sevillanas. Cobre and other pieces from great flamenco guitarists are incredible developments from these very basic rasgueagos. But I suggest you start using the basic videos uploaded by people of Sevilla.

i.e.



I hope this approach and story could help you.

_____________________________

Suenas payo ¡y lo sabes!

Sing and string - other flamenco blog
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2015 11:58:40
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