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'Das experiment' on gipsy/payo voices.   You are logged in as Guest
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jmb

Posts: 119
Joined: Oct. 14 2014
From: Vallecas - Madrid - Spain

'Das experiment' on gipsy/payo voices. 

Hi.

I would like to suggest a question/'experiment' about perception. Spanish flamenco aficionados loves usually some charcteristics that gipsy voices have in comparison with 'payas' (everyone that is not gypsy) voices. Some concepts who describe this kind of characteristics are 'rajo' or other as 'aquejar la voz' and are really important in expression. There is an extended opinion that these characteristics are not easily acquired only with technique.

For example, you can compare a siguirilla from 'El torta' (Jerez, gypsy) and a siguirilla from 'Poveda' (Barcelona/Murcia roots, payo).

My questions are for non-native Spanish Speakers:

1.Do you differ it clearly in singers?. And, if it is,

2.How do you describe it?

3.Do you find any parallel characteristic in guitars sound?

Thanks!

_____________________________

Suenas payo ¡y lo sabes!

Sing and string - other flamenco blog
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 5 2015 8:05:45
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: 'Das experiment' on gipsy/payo v... (in reply to jmb

I can only really answer the third. The few gypsies I have played with played Gypsy Swing and not flamenco but I think the difference is the same.

Differences in sound and style that seem almost minor on recordings loom large when you are in the same room playing with them.


D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 5 2015 9:10:14
 
Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007
 

RE: 'Das experiment' on gipsy/payo v... (in reply to jmb

Great question JMB, reminds me of a time a friend played me a track and asked what I thought of the singer. "Es muy gitano!" I replied after just one letra. "Muy gitano?" he said, "the guy's Japanese!". He handed me the CD box, I'd been had, a Japanese singer on a disk of the Agujetas family!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 5 2015 11:52:16
 
koenie17

Posts: 438
Joined: Feb. 25 2011
From: España

RE: 'Das experiment' on gipsy/payo v... (in reply to jmb

Good but dificult cuestion!
I can clearly hear a difference between a tipical gitano y payo singer. Although I dont think it has so much to do with being gitano or payo
but more in wich enviroment you were raised. For example el Capullo de Jerez for me sounds very gitano! But he is payo :)
Same goes for the guitarplayers. Now the tipical gitano voice for me is more rough, less educated, more compas, everything just seems to go naturally.
Payo singers and players seem to measure everything more and make it sound less natural. I dont know if I'm explaining myself correctly...
It's a bit like with soul music, without a doubt best soul artists are black! Even when the voice isn't that good they have something special(soul?!?) For example Louis armstrong his voice might not be all that, but its beatifull at the same time.
I think payo singers and players worrie a lot more about everyrhing: pitch, technique, compas, many gitanos dont care and just sing or play
and make it sound great

I dont know any gitano that needs to count!!

Although there are many exceptions!!

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 5 2015 16:50:36
 
Ricardo

Posts: 15032
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: 'Das experiment' on gipsy/payo v... (in reply to jmb

I will say I prefer the natural to the fake. It has nothing to do with race either. So I prefer the SOUND of vicente soto (more natural) to Jose Merce (puts on fake "rajo")...similarly I prefer Esperanza Fernandez (natural) to Carmen Linares (a fake rajo).

But for sure singing has technical things. Saddly I think the variety of the old singers was more rich, because today, everybody I hear is just copying some on else's sound.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 5 2015 18:05:23
 
archie640

 

Posts: 9
Joined: Dec. 10 2012
From: Bradford United Kingdom

RE: 'Das experiment' on gipsy/payo v... (in reply to koenie17

Koenie I agree, it all about a persons life and experiences. It's not as much if your a gypsy or not it's all about how much passion you put in to your music, if you sing or play from the heart you sound like you have greater conviction and passion regardless of how technically good you are. As you mentioned with jazz the same applies with blues listen to any lightning Hopkins, son house mephis slim records you will hear there passion and suffering they are authentic because they have lived and experienced life. Non gypsies may play more technically better but I think it is impossible to get the real feel unless you have suffered the hardships gypsies have, pain suffering and joy makes beauty
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 5 2015 19:52:58
 
orsonw

Posts: 1971
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: 'Das experiment' on gipsy/payo v... (in reply to jmb

I am a little ignorant, I like what I am moved by and then find out later about the blood as an after thought.

I also prefer to hear people singing with their own voice not putting on rajo if it's not really there, gitano or payo. For example I like Juana la del Pipa and La Perla de Cadiz both gitano I think? but Juana le del Pipa is much more rough.

I imagine that perhaps flamenco serves a social function for gitanos more often than for payos (i.e. it is played at juergas for it's own sake in a very intimate setting) and so it remains more emotional, raw and less effected?

Maybe it's also about era? For me things are generally getting too smooth now in both cante and toque, I prefer raw soul power. But this is not just flamenco- jazz, blues, soul, rock and roll etc.. the first half or three quarters of the last century seemed to me to have a different energy in these types of soul/street music. (please excuse my generalization)



I would like to be educated please, is there a good list somewhere of who is gitano and not?
These are some singers I like, are they gitano or payo? Up to now I just kind of assumed that the more hardcore ones are gitano but maybe I'm wrong?


La Perla de Cadiz
Antonio Reyes
Vicente Soto
Manuel Agujetas
Antonio Mairena
Juana la del Pipa
La Perla de Cadiz
David de Jacoba
Manuel Moneo
Antonia La Negra
Juan Villar
Jesus Mendez
La Tana
Montse Cortes
David Palomar
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 5 2015 19:59:35
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: 'Das experiment' on gipsy/payo v... (in reply to jmb

quote:

Maybe it's also about era? For me things are generally getting too smooth now in both cante and toque, I prefer raw soul power. But this is not just flamenco- jazz, blues, soul, rock and roll etc.. the first half or three quarters of the last century seemed to me to have a different energy in these types of soul/street music. (please excuse my generalization)

I feel the same.

Pretty sure Estrella Morente is a gitana and her voice is smooth as silk. On the flipside, Fosforito isn't gitano (i don't think) and he's got a good rajo, especially as he got older....

_____________________________

\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 5 2015 22:15:52
 
runner

 

Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA

RE: 'Das experiment' on gipsy/payo v... (in reply to jmb

If one takes a longer historical perspective, I would say as a generalization that gitano singers as a group tend(ed) to have more rajo in their voices than payo singers. Of course , there will be many exceptions to this. I also concur that, with the passage of time, there has been a general trend to make cante more audience-friendly by selecting for better-looking, better-groomed, and more "normal"- sounding singers, especially cantaoras, in order to attract and hold a larger and more naive public for flamenco. Agujetas once said, not that long ago, that he, La Paquera, and Chocolate were the last three real flamenco singers still alive and plying their trade.......
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 5 2015 23:31:10
 
jmb

Posts: 119
Joined: Oct. 14 2014
From: Vallecas - Madrid - Spain

RE: 'Das experiment' on gipsy/payo v... (in reply to jmb

Thanks for your reply guys.
I just explain why my questions.

I think it is a really interesting question. Obviously, as you say, it is a cultural way, not a racial, of understanding music. 'Capullo' is a good example, in the environment of Jeréz where gypsies are integrated with 'payos'.

My questions arose from a discussion with a friend, a good aficionado, about a perception that I though it was only mine, but he though the same. It is that outside Cadiz, for example in Madrid or Sevilla where the gipsy community is lees integrated, amateurs flamenco gypsies singers or even children, specially in outcast communities, have usually a beautiful natural 'rajo' despite a worst (or totally unknown) academic technique or skills. For me, this mixtures of interpretation and timbres at the same time cannot be found in most professional singers (of course, a personal opinion) .

As you probably know, this communities conserve an strong Spanish accent and a large number of gypsy words respecting the ‘payo’ community.

José Mercé say that, in the last 40 years there are not appear a voice that really hurts and Camarón (a very special voice anyway) talked in some footages about he trained in order to 'aquejar la voz' ...

It is really interesting for you point of view!

_____________________________

Suenas payo ¡y lo sabes!

Sing and string - other flamenco blog
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 6 2015 8:40:47
 
orsonw

Posts: 1971
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: 'Das experiment' on gipsy/payo v... (in reply to jmb

quote:

My questions arose from a discussion with a friend, a good aficionado, about a perception that I though it was only mine, but he though the same. It is that outside Cadiz, for example in Madrid or Sevilla where the gipsy community is lees integrated, amateurs flamenco gypsies singers or even children, specially in outcast communities, have usually a beautiful natural 'rajo' despite a worst (or totally unknown) academic technique or skills.


Thank you for the thread and everyone's posts.

I imagined and hoped there would be more raw singers in Spain that would never be heard of outside it, either because they would not want to be commercialized, or would not be considered worth commercializing by the record companies.

For those like me, not easily able to participate in gypsy juergas! I do hope that commercially available flamenco jondo may still have a resurgence after this smooth phase. As I wrote before I realise flamenco in an intimate juerga is generally more raw and emotional compared to in an international commercial setting.

I notice recently there have been a few more jondo moments on some contempory flamenco artists albums e.g. David de Jacoba with Pepe Habichuela por seguiryas Montse Cortes with Juan el le pipa por solea bulerias, Israel fernandez with Paco Cepero por seguriyia/tientos David Palomar por seguiryas (the rest of their cds ruined for me by synthesizer pads, fretless bass, chorus etc..),

As you suggest these 'rajo' timbres are not found so much in professional singers but what's the best we can do? Anyone know some good younger singers we can hear without needing to be invited into a gypsy "outcast community"!? Rancapino Hijo, Antonio Reyes?
El Perla's toque also seems more 'rajo' if that term can be applied to toque. Or did you mean the sound of the guitar itself?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 6 2015 9:25:10
 
orsonw

 

Posts: 1971
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
 

[Deleted] 

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Feb. 6 2015 10:21:17
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 6 2015 9:30:24
 
Ricardo

Posts: 15032
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: 'Das experiment' on gipsy/payo v... (in reply to jmb

quote:

ORIGINAL: jmb

Thanks for your reply guys.
I just explain why my questions.

I think it is a really interesting question. Obviously, as you say, it is a cultural way, not a racial, of understanding music. 'Capullo' is a good example, in the environment of Jeréz where gypsies are integrated with 'payos'.

My questions arose from a discussion with a friend, a good aficionado, about a perception that I though it was only mine, but he though the same. It is that outside Cadiz, for example in Madrid or Sevilla where the gipsy community is lees integrated, amateurs flamenco gypsies singers or even children, specially in outcast communities, have usually a beautiful natural 'rajo' despite a worst (or totally unknown) academic technique or skills. For me, this timbres cannot be found in most professional singers (of course, a personal opinion) .

As you probably know, this communities conserve an strong Spanish accent and a large number of gypsy words respecting the ‘payo’ community.

José Mercé say that, in the last 40 years there are not appear a voice that really hurts and Camarón (a very special voice anyway) talked in some footages about he trained in order to 'aquejar la voz' ...

It is really interesting for you point of view!


I think you and your amigo are generalizing and finding conclusions that could be incidental. Specific examples would help IMO. I will say there are many people in spain, singer or not, with a rajo voice when simply speaking. In my head I hear these folks and think they would sound nice singing some solea if they knew how. THe simple fact is that most amatures sing with their "talking" voice, and have no understanding of their optimal singing range, and most proffesionals discover a completely different voice they possess that works much better than the other voice for certain situations. For example, Chocolate sings some pop song in Rito y Geografia showing he has a totally different voice he uses for flamenco. Zambo on the other hand I dont' think could sing any other way than he does. Hope that makes sense.

Ricardo

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 6 2015 14:55:27
 
jmb

Posts: 119
Joined: Oct. 14 2014
From: Vallecas - Madrid - Spain

RE: 'Das experiment' on gipsy/payo v... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

I think you and your amigo are generalizing and finding conclusions that could be incidental.


Yeah ! It could be. And that was the tricky subject of our discussion for us. We, both, lived all our childhood in a disctrict with quite gypsies, we met them and have hear them in the neighborhood and , at the same tame, we have loved attend and enjoy proffesional flamenco for years and even, owing to several circustances, he has met many well-known cantaores ...

As I a said is just a perception (therefore totally subjective). My be, a kind of adquired taste ... as surströmming lovers.

_____________________________

Suenas payo ¡y lo sabes!

Sing and string - other flamenco blog
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 6 2015 21:28:20
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3436
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: 'Das experiment' on gipsy/payo v... (in reply to Leñador

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leñador
Pretty sure Estrella Morente is a gitana and her voice is smooth as silk. On the flipside, Fosforito isn't gitano (i don't think) and he's got a good rajo, especially as he got older....


Estrella's father Enrique was a payo. This was brought up frequently during the time he was severely criticized by the purists for his innovations. Apparently her mother Aurora Carbonell de Morente is gitana, judging from this quote in an article in El Pais from a little over a year ago:

"Aurora era una bailaora madrileña de 17 años cuando en su camino se cruzó Enrique. 'Al ser yo tan chica y él un payo, mis padres se opusieron...' "

http://cultura.elpais.com/cultura/2013/12/23/actualidad/1387828686_640713.html

I think an interesting case is Antonio Chacon. Born a payo, he was orphaned at an early age and raised by a gitano cobbler in a gitano barrio in Jerez. His early professional work was with the gitano brothers, tocaor Javier and bailaor Antonio Molina. Yet Chacon's voice was smooth, without rajo, and his pronunciation was much more payo than gitano.

I don't think you can safely conclude a singer's race or cultural background from their vocal style, though there may be generalizations--with notable exceptions.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 6 2015 23:49:29
 
edguerin

Posts: 1591
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: 'Das experiment' on gipsy/payo v... (in reply to jmb

I too believe it's the environment. A friend from Sevilla related his experience in Japan, where he heard a wonderful Seguiriyas sung by a Japanese. Convinced the singer was born in Spain, and grew up in a flamenco ambiente, he went backstage to interview him, only to realize he didn't speak one word of Spanish!


BTW, how are you influenced by German? ("Das Experiment" ...)

_____________________________

Ed

El aficionado solitario
Alemania
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2015 17:16:33
 
jmb

Posts: 119
Joined: Oct. 14 2014
From: Vallecas - Madrid - Spain

RE: 'Das experiment' on gipsy/payo v... (in reply to edguerin

I lived there a short and crazy period of my life. Good people.

_____________________________

Suenas payo ¡y lo sabes!

Sing and string - other flamenco blog
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2015 20:35:13
 
Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007
 

RE: 'Das experiment' on gipsy/payo v... (in reply to jmb

This guy's not a gitano, but has clearly come a long way from his California origins

Por seguiryas


Por bulerias


His story (here http://cantejondo.com/en/about/) is inspiring.

Ole Quijote!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 15 2015 2:33:10
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: 'Das experiment' on gipsy/payo v... (in reply to jmb

Nice! Very cool. I think that's Juan Bacan next to him? I just did a workshop with him, I felt like a first grader trying to learn physics....
PS put a space after the URL, the parenthesis sends you to a nonexistent page.

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\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 15 2015 3:16:54
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