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WGuitar

 

Posts: 46
Joined: Apr. 21 2014
 

What has flamenco taught you? 

Greetings!

Now that its the holiday season, dont feel like talking about technique and stuff..

but now looking back on all the years you've been playing and listening to flamenco, what do you feel flamenco has taught you?

I mean, has anything changed, in the process, about you as a person, your perspective on life, your relationships with others..etc

Granted, we live and we learn, but what do you owe flamenco?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 27 2014 0:27:37
 
rombsix

Posts: 6965
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: What has flamenco taught you? (in reply to WGuitar

It has taught me that picado is everything. Olé!

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Ramzi

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 27 2014 2:06:37
 
kudo

Posts: 2064
Joined: Sep. 3 2009
 

RE: What has flamenco taught you? (in reply to WGuitar

flamenco taught me that what musicians like and appreciate is DIFFERENT from what non-musicians appreciate it. musicians look at technicality and everything and judge acordingly while non-musicians who know nothing about music , they hear the clarity of the notes and a generic melody. so if you do an awesome run of scales with picado it means nothing to non-musican, its like someone saying whasadsresfasdioaasdasldjara. ok, what does that mean?
they look for what makes them ring from the inside, what they resonate with, what they connect to thru the notes, even if its very simple. how else does such a guy called "estas tonne" put people on 1.5 hrs trance on JUST 1 PIECE OF MUSIC !its quiet shocking to us guitarists to see this
people swarm around him!! why??? because people ultimately see the expression and the emotions of the music, what it triggers in them. and not all the technicality that us guitarists look at....

flamencos will typically say flamenco needs to have both technique and emotion to be great
non musicians will only see emotion and thats why some flamencos get away with it too who have very basic technique such as manuel molina




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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 27 2014 2:59:01
 
rombsix

Posts: 6965
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: What has flamenco taught you? (in reply to kudo

quote:

lamenco taught me that what musicians like and appreciate is DIFFERENT from what non-musicians appreciate it. musicians look at technicality and everything and judge acordingly while non-musicians who know nothing about music , they hear the clarity of the notes and a generic melody. so if you do an awesome run of scales with picado it means nothing to non-musican, its like someone saying whasadsresfasdioaasdasldjara. ok, what does that mean?
they look for what makes them ring from the inside, what they resonate with, what they connect to thru the notes, even if its very simple. how else does such a guy called "estas tonne" put people on 1.5 hrs trance on JUST 1 PIECE OF MUSIC !its quiet shocking to us guitarists to see this




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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 27 2014 3:02:39
 
kudo

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RE: What has flamenco taught you? (in reply to rombsix

lol you bastard

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 27 2014 3:10:42
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5779
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: What has flamenco taught you? (in reply to WGuitar

That "Waiting for Godot" is not surrealistic. Its flamenco daily.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 27 2014 7:39:41
 
etta

 

Posts: 279
Joined: Jan. 20 2010
 

RE: What has flamenco taught you? (in reply to WGuitar

Old passions never really die; I left flamenco over 40 years ago, but it came back with even greater duende.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 27 2014 12:48:05
 
tele

Posts: 1418
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: What has flamenco taught you? (in reply to WGuitar

It taught me it's just as much about culture as it's about music

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 27 2014 13:13:49
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3040
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: What has flamenco taught you? (in reply to kudo

That's called marketing, which is the basis of music industry. It has nothing to do with the music by itself.. neither is it designed to be consumed by people who are really interested in music.

To the masses, McDonalds might be gourmet food while people who are really interested on what they eat wont even consider a Big Mac to be food.


Also, Estas Tonne sucks. A case of music to the "wanna be snob" who doesn't even care for guitar music, just wants to "name names" to their friends. A bit like the huge amount of people that say "Oh, Hendrix/Satriani/Paco is the best" without having consciously ever heard anything from those names.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 27 2014 14:39:58

Morante

 

Posts: 1409
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: What has flamenco taught you? (in reply to Sr. Martins

When I became interested in flamenco, I decided that it would be necessary to learn Spanish. Went to classes in the evening and luckily found a teacher from Almería who taught, not only Spanish, but his love for his native land.

From Spanish I discoved Spain, a wonderful country with a thousand facets. When the opportunity arose, I came to live here, I live surrounded by flamenco, but it is not the most important thing in my life.

Here everything is bathed by sunshine and great food: flamenco is for minorities, even in Andalucía: here flamenco is el cante: a guitarrist who can play the repertorios of Paco and Vicente, but cannot accompany the cante, is dismissed.

Here there is great generosity of spirit.

Viva Andalusía y Caí de mis entrañas, cuanto te quiero, eres el más bonito del mundo entero
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 27 2014 19:00:15
 
rombsix

Posts: 6965
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: What has flamenco taught you? (in reply to Morante

quote:

here flamenco is el cante: a guitarrist who can play the repertorios of Paco and Vicente, but cannot accompany the cante, is dismissed.


The people doing the dismissing probably have sucky picado & can't play Paco's & Vicente's repertoires.

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 27 2014 22:07:50
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3040
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: What has flamenco taught you? (in reply to rombsix

quote:

The people doing the dismissing probably have sucky picado & can't play Paco's & Vicente's repertoires.


If there was no Paco & Vicente, flamenco would probably still be a regional thing. This forum would never exist, instead there would be a facebook page with 10 likes.

edit: Which reminds me that Vicente's tours keep going on and on and on... no wonder the man takes 4 years to release a record.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 27 2014 23:12:06
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 2864
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: What has flamenco taught you? (in reply to Sr. Martins

quote:

If there was no Paco & Vicente, flamenco would probably still be a regional thing. This forum would never exist, instead there would be a facebook page with 10 likes.


Without Paco it would not be as well known and wide spread as it is, but it would be as it is with or without Vicente. Even without Paco, flamenco would not be just a "regional thing." It certainly stopped being a regional art form with the popularity of Carlos Montoya and Sabicas in the '50s '60s and '70s. Say what you will about Carlos Montoya, he put flamenco on the map outside Spain. And, of course, Sabicas clinched it with real aficionados outside Spain.

This forum would exist for true aficionados of flamenco with or without either Paco or Vicente. For true aficionados, flamenco did not begin and end with Paco, much less with Vicente. For a true lover of flamenco, with all the great guitaristas and cantaores throughout the 20th century--Ramon Montoya, Nino Ricardo, Sabicas, Paco Cepero, El Chocolate, Nina de los Peines, Fosforito, and dozens of others--flamenco would be just as riveting. To say that Paco and Vicente are the only reasons this forum exists is to project a very narrow view of flamenco on to those aficionados who have a broader view of the genre.

Bill

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With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 27 2014 23:42:03
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3040
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: What has flamenco taught you? (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

To say that Paco and Vicente are the only reasons this forum exists is to project a very narrow view of flamenco on to those aficionados who have a broader view of the genre.


I can enjoy almost any old flamenco but very few from the last few decades. What I said is from a perspective of big names in flamenco that are contemporary to the information/internet age. Never meant to imply that only these names are good enough to carry flamenco on their shoulders, the fact is that they are the most well known names alive (until recently in Paco's case).

Without big names that everyone has heard of even if they haven't listened to any music, any genre "dies" or retracts to niche status. This forum would be even more niche than it is.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 28 2014 0:07:08
 
WGuitar

 

Posts: 46
Joined: Apr. 21 2014
 

RE: What has flamenco taught you? (in reply to WGuitar

Thanks for the replies everyone!

I'm having a great time reading this. Not what I expected to hear maybe (thought someone would come and say flamenco did actually save my life or something )
but its all good and very interesting

Feel I gotta say, I came here for some fancy rumba strums, then became addicted to Paco. He was a GREAT player, but more and more I'm starting to see how there's certainly more to flamenco than Paco's work.

kudo made a good point indeed about difference between musicians and non musicians. And maybe its just me but actually SOME picado's I hear serve no musical purpose IMHO, where fewer notes would probably suffice, again that's one man's opinion.
Though, like Sr. Martins, didn't really dig the music examples you posted kudo, sorry for that!

Cheers!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 28 2014 0:26:16
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3040
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: What has flamenco taught you? (in reply to WGuitar

Flamenco taught me how to understand snobs.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 28 2014 0:52:25
 
jmb

Posts: 119
Joined: Oct. 14 2014
From: Vallecas - Madrid - Spain

RE: What has flamenco taught you? (in reply to WGuitar

People that instil me flamenco in my childwood, some of them great 'cabales', teach me that guitar is wonderful just a support in flamenco. From this point o view flamenco flamenco has taugh me that life is cruel couse I have to resing myself to playing some wonderful falsetas in he secondary guitar intead of having abilities, lungs, charisma and a suitable voice to express myself properly singing siguirillas or other 'palos jondos'.

As a good friend of mine said, true flamenco is not music, is an issue about souls where beauty is the less important thing, but sometimes it happens.

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Suenas payo ¡y lo sabes!

Sing and string - other flamenco blog
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 28 2014 23:45:55
 
Dudnote

Posts: 1789
Joined: Nov. 13 2007
 

RE: What has flamenco taught you? (in reply to jmb

quote:

ORIGINAL: jmb

People that instil me flamenco in my childwood, some of them great 'cabales', teach me that guitar is wonderful just a support in flamenco. From this point o view flamenco flamenco has taugh me that life is cruel couse I have to resing myself to playing some wonderful falsetas in he secondary guitar intead of having abilities, lungs, charisma and a suitable voice to express myself properly singing siguirillas or other 'palos jondos'.

As a good friend of mine said, true flamenco is not music, is an issue about souls where beauty is the less important thing, but sometimes it happens.


Ole!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2014 1:34:33
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 2695
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: What has flamenco taught you? (in reply to WGuitar

quote:

what do you feel flamenco has taught you?

to enjoy the journey and not worry too much about the destination.

quote:

what do you owe flamenco?

probably my health - I gave up a bunch of bad things that were getting in the way of playing.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2014 21:01:30
 
kudo

Posts: 2064
Joined: Sep. 3 2009
 

RE: What has flamenco taught you? (in reply to Sr. Martins

quote:


Also, Estas Tonne sucks. A case of music to the "wanna be snob" who doesn't even care for guitar music, just wants to "name names" to their friends. A bit like the huge amount of people that say "Oh, Hendrix/Satriani/Paco is the best" without having consciously ever heard anything from those names.

I agree that technically he sucks, but musically he has something... and remember that neither of us can gather the amount of crowd that he does, the question is why? why are so many people attracted to his music? you have to understand what people are hearing in that and not what YOU musician hear and know about music

quote:

For true aficionados, flamenco did not begin and end with Paco, much less with Vicente
OLE !
exactly,also they are humans like you and me, not more .. its stupid to "god-ify" someone for their achievements... sorry for the paco worshippers or any celebrity worshippers etc.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 30 2014 3:18:13
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3040
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: What has flamenco taught you? (in reply to kudo

quote:

I agree that technically he sucks, but musically he has something... and remember that neither of us can gather the amount of crowd that he does, the question is why? why are so many people attracted to his music? you have to understand what people are hearing in that and not what YOU musician hear and know about music


Seriously, are you that naive?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 30 2014 12:47:01
 
Leñador

Posts: 5229
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: What has flamenco taught you? (in reply to WGuitar

quote:

What has flamenco taught you?

Compas

Even though flamenco is not really "theory heavy" music I've actually learned a lot about chord structures, substitutions and alternate voicings etc..
quote:

what do you owe flamenco?

My lady, lol, who I met playing for her dance class.

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\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 30 2014 15:05:55
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1613
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: What has flamenco taught you? (in reply to WGuitar

quote:

but what do you owe flamenco?


I owe it a lot.

In 1983 I went for the second time to Paco Peña’s festival in Córdoba. There was an older cordobés aficionado, who had known Paco since he was young; and he was looking desperately for a transcription of Mantilla de Feria. He asked Paco if he knew where to find it.

Paco didn’t, but he asked me if I knew. As it happened, I’d transcribed this, so I gave a copy to the old chap. He offered to pay me, but of course I refused, so he invited me to dinner.

He and his wife had two children, a boy of 16 and a girl of 11, who were learning guitar; but it was clear they’d been badly taught, so I helped them out. The parents invited me to stay with them the next year, and then every year after that. They said I’d become like a second son to them, so I started calling them Mamá and Papá.

Now the little girl is a mother with a boy and girl of her own, the boy is Professor of Guitar at the Córdoba Conservatory, and the family are still among my closest friends. They’ve added another dimension to my ife.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 30 2014 16:54:18
 
SephardRick

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RE: What has flamenco taught you? (in reply to Leñador

quote:

Compas Even though flamenco is not really "theory heavy" music I've actually learned a lot about chord structures, substitutions and alternate voicings etc..


I second that thought on what Flamenco has taught me. It's all about compas, compas, and compas...Along with Paco's discipline - Play it right at all time. Whether, in practice, performing, or jamming it makes you a better musician.

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Rick
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 30 2014 17:20:01
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1613
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: What has flamenco taught you? (in reply to Paul Magnussen

And…

I met my (now) wife in a flamenco guitar class conducted by the late Anita Sheer, when she invited me down as a guest lecturer.

So what with one thing and another, I owe flamenco a lot

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 30 2014 17:37:20
 
Mark2

Posts: 1480
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: What has flamenco taught you? (in reply to WGuitar

How to play a solo gig, how to accompany a dancer, how to groove in 12, how to listen to a singer, watch a dancer, and play for both at the same time, that flamenco is not mainly about the music, but rather is a communication between the participants.....how amazing the technique of good flamenco guitarists really is. How culture and background play a huge role not only in flamenco, but all musical styles. And how bleeping hard it is to develop a decent, reliable picado.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 30 2014 17:50:17
 
Leñador

Posts: 5229
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: What has flamenco taught you? (in reply to WGuitar

quote:

that flamenco is not mainly about the music, but rather is a communication between the participants

Eso, that's a big one.........

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\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 30 2014 17:58:23
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3040
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: What has flamenco taught you? (in reply to WGuitar

Flamenco taught me not to use a pick.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 30 2014 18:10:01
 
kudo

Posts: 2064
Joined: Sep. 3 2009
 

RE: What has flamenco taught you? (in reply to Sr. Martins

quote:


Seriously, are you that naive?

ok if i am naive, show me your wisdom and gather a crowd like him if you can..

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 30 2014 20:06:40
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3040
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: What has flamenco taught you? (in reply to kudo

quote:

ok if i am naive, show me your wisdom and gather a crowd like him if you can..


You sound like a Justin Bieber fan.

Seriously man, taste aside... there's music as an art and there's also music as an industry. You might enjoy things that sell a lot and have a good marketing machine behind them but that if you judge quality based on numbers then the industry might be getting the best of you.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 30 2014 20:20:13
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