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RE: What has flamenco taught you? (in reply to WGuitar)
flamenco taught me that what musicians like and appreciate is DIFFERENT from what non-musicians appreciate it. musicians look at technicality and everything and judge acordingly while non-musicians who know nothing about music , they hear the clarity of the notes and a generic melody. so if you do an awesome run of scales with picado it means nothing to non-musican, its like someone saying whasadsresfasdioaasdasldjara. ok, what does that mean? they look for what makes them ring from the inside, what they resonate with, what they connect to thru the notes, even if its very simple. how else does such a guy called "estas tonne" put people on 1.5 hrs trance on JUST 1 PIECE OF MUSIC !its quiet shocking to us guitarists to see this people swarm around him!! why??? because people ultimately see the expression and the emotions of the music, what it triggers in them. and not all the technicality that us guitarists look at....
flamencos will typically say flamenco needs to have both technique and emotion to be great non musicians will only see emotion and thats why some flamencos get away with it too who have very basic technique such as manuel molina
RE: What has flamenco taught you? (in reply to kudo)
quote:
lamenco taught me that what musicians like and appreciate is DIFFERENT from what non-musicians appreciate it. musicians look at technicality and everything and judge acordingly while non-musicians who know nothing about music , they hear the clarity of the notes and a generic melody. so if you do an awesome run of scales with picado it means nothing to non-musican, its like someone saying whasadsresfasdioaasdasldjara. ok, what does that mean? they look for what makes them ring from the inside, what they resonate with, what they connect to thru the notes, even if its very simple. how else does such a guy called "estas tonne" put people on 1.5 hrs trance on JUST 1 PIECE OF MUSIC !its quiet shocking to us guitarists to see this
RE: What has flamenco taught you? (in reply to kudo)
That's called marketing, which is the basis of music industry. It has nothing to do with the music by itself.. neither is it designed to be consumed by people who are really interested in music.
To the masses, McDonalds might be gourmet food while people who are really interested on what they eat wont even consider a Big Mac to be food.
Also, Estas Tonne sucks. A case of music to the "wanna be snob" who doesn't even care for guitar music, just wants to "name names" to their friends. A bit like the huge amount of people that say "Oh, Hendrix/Satriani/Paco is the best" without having consciously ever heard anything from those names.
RE: What has flamenco taught you? (in reply to Sr. Martins)
When I became interested in flamenco, I decided that it would be necessary to learn Spanish. Went to classes in the evening and luckily found a teacher from Almería who taught, not only Spanish, but his love for his native land.
From Spanish I discoved Spain, a wonderful country with a thousand facets. When the opportunity arose, I came to live here, I live surrounded by flamenco, but it is not the most important thing in my life.
Here everything is bathed by sunshine and great food: flamenco is for minorities, even in Andalucía: here flamenco is el cante: a guitarrist who can play the repertorios of Paco and Vicente, but cannot accompany the cante, is dismissed.
Here there is great generosity of spirit.
Viva Andalusía y Caí de mis entrañas, cuanto te quiero, eres el más bonito del mundo entero
RE: What has flamenco taught you? (in reply to rombsix)
quote:
The people doing the dismissing probably have sucky picado & can't play Paco's & Vicente's repertoires.
If there was no Paco & Vicente, flamenco would probably still be a regional thing. This forum would never exist, instead there would be a facebook page with 10 likes.
edit: Which reminds me that Vicente's tours keep going on and on and on... no wonder the man takes 4 years to release a record.
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From: Washington, DC
RE: What has flamenco taught you? (in reply to Sr. Martins)
quote:
If there was no Paco & Vicente, flamenco would probably still be a regional thing. This forum would never exist, instead there would be a facebook page with 10 likes.
Without Paco it would not be as well known and wide spread as it is, but it would be as it is with or without Vicente. Even without Paco, flamenco would not be just a "regional thing." It certainly stopped being a regional art form with the popularity of Carlos Montoya and Sabicas in the '50s '60s and '70s. Say what you will about Carlos Montoya, he put flamenco on the map outside Spain. And, of course, Sabicas clinched it with real aficionados outside Spain.
This forum would exist for true aficionados of flamenco with or without either Paco or Vicente. For true aficionados, flamenco did not begin and end with Paco, much less with Vicente. For a true lover of flamenco, with all the great guitaristas and cantaores throughout the 20th century--Ramon Montoya, Nino Ricardo, Sabicas, Paco Cepero, El Chocolate, Nina de los Peines, Fosforito, and dozens of others--flamenco would be just as riveting. To say that Paco and Vicente are the only reasons this forum exists is to project a very narrow view of flamenco on to those aficionados who have a broader view of the genre.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: What has flamenco taught you? (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
To say that Paco and Vicente are the only reasons this forum exists is to project a very narrow view of flamenco on to those aficionados who have a broader view of the genre.
I can enjoy almost any old flamenco but very few from the last few decades. What I said is from a perspective of big names in flamenco that are contemporary to the information/internet age. Never meant to imply that only these names are good enough to carry flamenco on their shoulders, the fact is that they are the most well known names alive (until recently in Paco's case).
Without big names that everyone has heard of even if they haven't listened to any music, any genre "dies" or retracts to niche status. This forum would be even more niche than it is.
RE: What has flamenco taught you? (in reply to WGuitar)
Thanks for the replies everyone!
I'm having a great time reading this. Not what I expected to hear maybe (thought someone would come and say flamenco did actually save my life or something ) but its all good and very interesting
Feel I gotta say, I came here for some fancy rumba strums, then became addicted to Paco. He was a GREAT player, but more and more I'm starting to see how there's certainly more to flamenco than Paco's work.
kudo made a good point indeed about difference between musicians and non musicians. And maybe its just me but actually SOME picado's I hear serve no musical purpose IMHO, where fewer notes would probably suffice, again that's one man's opinion. Though, like Sr. Martins, didn't really dig the music examples you posted kudo, sorry for that!
RE: What has flamenco taught you? (in reply to WGuitar)
People that instil me flamenco in my childwood, some of them great 'cabales', teach me that guitar is wonderful just a support in flamenco. From this point o view flamenco flamenco has taugh me that life is cruel couse I have to resing myself to playing some wonderful falsetas in he secondary guitar intead of having abilities, lungs, charisma and a suitable voice to express myself properly singing siguirillas or other 'palos jondos'.
As a good friend of mine said, true flamenco is not music, is an issue about souls where beauty is the less important thing, but sometimes it happens.
RE: What has flamenco taught you? (in reply to jmb)
quote:
ORIGINAL: jmb
People that instil me flamenco in my childwood, some of them great 'cabales', teach me that guitar is wonderful just a support in flamenco. From this point o view flamenco flamenco has taugh me that life is cruel couse I have to resing myself to playing some wonderful falsetas in he secondary guitar intead of having abilities, lungs, charisma and a suitable voice to express myself properly singing siguirillas or other 'palos jondos'.
As a good friend of mine said, true flamenco is not music, is an issue about souls where beauty is the less important thing, but sometimes it happens.
RE: What has flamenco taught you? (in reply to Sr. Martins)
quote:
Also, Estas Tonne sucks. A case of music to the "wanna be snob" who doesn't even care for guitar music, just wants to "name names" to their friends. A bit like the huge amount of people that say "Oh, Hendrix/Satriani/Paco is the best" without having consciously ever heard anything from those names.
I agree that technically he sucks, but musically he has something... and remember that neither of us can gather the amount of crowd that he does, the question is why? why are so many people attracted to his music? you have to understand what people are hearing in that and not what YOU musician hear and know about music
quote:
For true aficionados, flamenco did not begin and end with Paco, much less with Vicente
OLE ! exactly,also they are humans like you and me, not more .. its stupid to "god-ify" someone for their achievements... sorry for the paco worshippers or any celebrity worshippers etc.
RE: What has flamenco taught you? (in reply to kudo)
quote:
I agree that technically he sucks, but musically he has something... and remember that neither of us can gather the amount of crowd that he does, the question is why? why are so many people attracted to his music? you have to understand what people are hearing in that and not what YOU musician hear and know about music
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From: London (living in the Bay Area)
RE: What has flamenco taught you? (in reply to WGuitar)
quote:
but what do you owe flamenco?
I owe it a lot.
In 1983 I went for the second time to Paco Peña’s festival in Córdoba. There was an older cordobés aficionado, who had known Paco since he was young; and he was looking desperately for a transcription of Mantilla de Feria. He asked Paco if he knew where to find it.
Paco didn’t, but he asked me if I knew. As it happened, I’d transcribed this, so I gave a copy to the old chap. He offered to pay me, but of course I refused, so he invited me to dinner.
He and his wife had two children, a boy of 16 and a girl of 11, who were learning guitar; but it was clear they’d been badly taught, so I helped them out. The parents invited me to stay with them the next year, and then every year after that. They said I’d become like a second son to them, so I started calling them Mamá and Papá.
Now the little girl is a mother with a boy and girl of her own, the boy is Professor of Guitar at the Córdoba Conservatory, and the family are still among my closest friends. They’ve added another dimension to my ife.
RE: What has flamenco taught you? (in reply to Leñador)
quote:
Compas Even though flamenco is not really "theory heavy" music I've actually learned a lot about chord structures, substitutions and alternate voicings etc..
I second that thought on what Flamenco has taught me. It's all about compas, compas, and compas...Along with Paco's discipline - Play it right at all time. Whether, in practice, performing, or jamming it makes you a better musician.
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Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: What has flamenco taught you? (in reply to WGuitar)
How to play a solo gig, how to accompany a dancer, how to groove in 12, how to listen to a singer, watch a dancer, and play for both at the same time, that flamenco is not mainly about the music, but rather is a communication between the participants.....how amazing the technique of good flamenco guitarists really is. How culture and background play a huge role not only in flamenco, but all musical styles. And how bleeping hard it is to develop a decent, reliable picado.
RE: What has flamenco taught you? (in reply to kudo)
quote:
ok if i am naive, show me your wisdom and gather a crowd like him if you can..
You sound like a Justin Bieber fan.
Seriously man, taste aside... there's music as an art and there's also music as an industry. You might enjoy things that sell a lot and have a good marketing machine behind them but that if you judge quality based on numbers then the industry might be getting the best of you.