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Cloth Ears

 

Posts: 152
Joined: Apr. 26 2005
 

RE: Moraito's guitar for sale (in reply to Sr. Martins

I understand what you are getting at Sr. Martins, I think.

However I don't believe it is 'nitpicking about scale length', just an observation that it causes differences in the response of a guitar due mainly to tension. I had some difficulty studying 'Asturias' and was hit and miss in my practice on a 660mm flamenco guitar, and then bought a 650mm classical and suddenly am more hit than miss with the piece.

Hence my feigned '*shock*' at a 670mm scale length. Horses for courses.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 4 2014 20:13:37
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3034
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Moraito's guitar for sale (in reply to Cloth Ears

Everything is unique so everything is different... but that doesn't mean that everything makes a difference.

If you believe that there's a difference, then there will be one.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 4 2014 21:12:33
 
Cloth Ears

 

Posts: 152
Joined: Apr. 26 2005
 

RE: Moraito's guitar for sale (in reply to Cloth Ears

I bet you could win formula 1 world championship in a go kart with that attitude. Good luck.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 4 2014 21:31:27
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3034
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Moraito's guitar for sale (in reply to Cloth Ears

I believe there's a difference between a formula 1 car and a kart, so..
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 4 2014 21:34:39
 
Bliblablub

 

Posts: 60
Joined: Oct. 9 2013
 

RE: Moraito's guitar for sale (in reply to Sr. Martins

If you believe that there's a difference, then there will be one.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 4 2014 21:36:34
 
tri7/5

 

Posts: 506
Joined: May 5 2012
 

RE: Moraito's guitar for sale (in reply to Cloth Ears

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cloth Ears

I understand what you are getting at Sr. Martins, I think.

However I don't believe it is 'nitpicking about scale length', just an observation that it causes differences in the response of a guitar due mainly to tension. I had some difficulty studying 'Asturias' and was hit and miss in my practice on a 660mm flamenco guitar, and then bought a 650mm classical and suddenly am more hit than miss with the piece.

Hence my feigned '*shock*' at a 670mm scale length. Horses for courses.


I hate to derail but I have to. Scale length does not always equate to more tension vs another scale. It's ultimately the guitar itself. I've played a 655 that was the lowest tension guitar I've ever played with hard tension strings vs. any 650/640 with normal tension strings.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 4 2014 21:49:51
 
Cloth Ears

 

Posts: 152
Joined: Apr. 26 2005
 

RE: Moraito's guitar for sale (in reply to tri7/5

Interesting. Can any Luthiers here explain how that would be possible? I thought the length of a string was the most significant factor in tension, but I do not claim to be an expert or have tried more than a handful of guitars.

Who built this guitar?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 4 2014 23:04:57
 
orsonw

Posts: 1400
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Moraito's guitar for sale (in reply to Cloth Ears

quote:

Can any Luthiers here explain how that would be possible? I thought the length of a string was the most significant factor in tension, but I do not claim to be an expert or have tried more than a handful of guitars.


The string moves but so does the guitar; the reponse of the top is more important. It has often been discussed before, try a search for 'pulsation' or 'scale length' or '660' etc.. (I am not a luthier or an expert)

http://www.foroflamenco.com/searchpro.asp?topicreply=both&message=both&timeframe=%3E&timefilter=0&top=300&criteria=AND&minRank=10&language=single&phrase=pulsation (read all the threads not just the 'pulsation' thread)

http://www.foroflamenco.com/searchpro.asp?topicreply=both&message=both&timeframe=%3E&timefilter=0&top=300&criteria=AND&minRank=10&language=single&phrase=scale+length
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2014 8:23:06
 
orsonw

 

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Dec. 5 2014 11:04:46
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2014 11:02:41
 
Escribano

Posts: 5862
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England

RE: Moraito's guitar for sale (in reply to orsonw

Not on a technical guitar theme, but having met the very friendly and warm Moraito in London some years ago, and seeing him play in London and Jerez, I find it sad and poignant to see his guitar for sale, all alone like a lost, faithful dog.

We get very attached to our guitars and I like to think each ding, scratch and stain on this particular guitar tell a very interesting story from its life.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2014 11:09:20
 
RobJe

 

Posts: 666
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Moraito's guitar for sale (in reply to Escribano

quote:

Not on a technical guitar theme, but having met the very friendly and warm Moraito in London some years ago, and seeing him play in London and Jerez, I find it sad and poignant to see his guitar for sale, all alone like a lost, faithful dog.

We get very attached to our guitars and I like to think each ding, scratch and stain on this particular guitar tell a very interesting story from its life.


There is a nice Rito y Geografia video showing the teenage Moraito playing a Ramirez. By the time he came to London (still in his teens I think) for a small venue (ICA Theatre) gig with La Negra (daughter Lole Montoya providing palmas) he had a Conde. By then he had developed the familiar body posture, crouching over the guitar and bobbing up and down a bit with the rhythm.

He played many different Condes over the years from the three different shops. What interests me is that he reverted to this 1964 guitar in later years. It was presumably acquired second-hand as he was only 8 years old when it was made. The well-known strutting pattern developed by Faustino and which has continued relatively unchanged, did not emerge until sometime later (1970s?) I like to think of Moraito, the party animal, enjoying this old style guitar so unlike some of the more modern heavy but microphone friendly beasts.

You will find the young Moraito at 5.45

http://www.muzikkitabi.com/Video/VIDEOIDE0klwXak8F0/Rito-y-Geograf%C3%ADa-del-Cante-Flamenco---Ni%C3%B1os-Cantaores
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2014 12:41:58
 
hamia

 

Posts: 357
Joined: Jun. 25 2004
 

RE: Moraito's guitar for sale (in reply to tri7/5

quote:

ORIGINAL: tri7/5

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cloth Ears

I understand what you are getting at Sr. Martins, I think.

However I don't believe it is 'nitpicking about scale length', just an observation that it causes differences in the response of a guitar due mainly to tension. I had some difficulty studying 'Asturias' and was hit and miss in my practice on a 660mm flamenco guitar, and then bought a 650mm classical and suddenly am more hit than miss with the piece.

Hence my feigned '*shock*' at a 670mm scale length. Horses for courses.


I hate to derail but I have to. Scale length does not always equate to more tension vs another scale. It's ultimately the guitar itself. I've played a 655 that was the lowest tension guitar I've ever played with hard tension strings vs. any 650/640 with normal tension strings.


Physics says you are wrong. To get the same frequency from a longer string length requires a higher tension. I'm not sure how your 'pulsation' comes into it - whatever this is.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2014 12:54:12
 
tri7/5

 

Posts: 506
Joined: May 5 2012
 

RE: Moraito's guitar for sale (in reply to hamia

quote:

ORIGINAL: hamia

quote:

ORIGINAL: tri7/5

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cloth Ears

I understand what you are getting at Sr. Martins, I think.

However I don't believe it is 'nitpicking about scale length', just an observation that it causes differences in the response of a guitar due mainly to tension. I had some difficulty studying 'Asturias' and was hit and miss in my practice on a 660mm flamenco guitar, and then bought a 650mm classical and suddenly am more hit than miss with the piece.

Hence my feigned '*shock*' at a 670mm scale length. Horses for courses.


I hate to derail but I have to. Scale length does not always equate to more tension vs another scale. It's ultimately the guitar itself. I've played a 655 that was the lowest tension guitar I've ever played with hard tension strings vs. any 650/640 with normal tension strings.


Physics says you are wrong. To get the same frequency from a longer string length requires a higher tension. I'm not sure how your 'pulsation' comes into it - whatever this is.


From a pure physics standpoint yes a string will have more tension at a longer length tuned to same pitch but the entire guitar comes into play here and not just string physics. All guitars will have a different feel in terms of tension and a longer scale length does not necessarily guarantee a stiffer feel vs. another of different length. I suggest reading through the links orson posted above so you get a better understanding.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2014 13:32:58
 
RobJe

 

Posts: 666
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Moraito's guitar for sale (in reply to hamia

quote:

Physics says you are wrong. To get the same frequency from a longer string length requires a higher tension. I'm not sure how your 'pulsation' comes into it - whatever this is.



You are referring to static tension. When you pluck a string its length (use Pythagoras' Theorem if you like) and hence tension change AND the guitar moves a bit. Pulsación (term used in Spain) refers to the "feel" of the guitar when you play it. It is of course subjective and caused by dynamic factors that are difficult to measure. It is loosely related to the force needed to stretch the string when you pluck it, which in turn are related to the elastic qualities of the string, the guitar body and the neck. Scientific research has been undertaken on all this but I don't know of anything that comes close to a workable theory. So we have to rely on the experience and intuition of great luthiers to get it right - they "know" more than they can say! But we can say that if your guitar is made of concrete the strings will feel stiffer that if the guitar is made of wood! For many guitarists pulsación is the most important consideration when choosing a guitar. For me it is more important than how the guitar sounds.

Rob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2014 13:50:12
 
gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Moraito's guitar for sale (in reply to Escribano

quote:

I find it sad and poignant to see his guitar for sale, all alone like a lost, faithful dog.


How true and how touching the analogy you chose to describe the point, Escribano.
There are a few posts, from time to time, that stay with me, and am reminded of them when I change strings, make a mistake, fear to make one, and so on...
I think I will see my guitar rather differently after your post, and I am sure I could never sell it.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2014 13:58:07
 
estebanana

 

Posts: 7502
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Moraito's guitar for sale (in reply to Andy Culpepper

quote:

Either way, it's still Moraito's guitar, probably his favorite one. You would own a big piece of flamenco history. It's not like it's his old toothbrush or something


I would not mind having his old toothbrush, in fact if it would make me play better, I'd brush my teeth with it everyday.
______

670 that is a long scale, it's awesome. I'm not making any more flamencos with short scales. I dislike them and never should have consented to make the shorter ones I have made. Lesson learned. For me 660 is really nice scale.

Back in the old days I can imagine if a guitarmaker did not like making short scale or long scale guitars whatever reason suited their building style no one would question them. Today you have to justify everything you do and do talky talky to give reasons why. In the old days they just made guitars, than then players picked them out based on what they like.

So many factors are at play in determining how a guitar feels it's difficult to say tension an feel is on scale alone. Todays builders are asked to do everything, like your website has drop down menus you can look at and check off a list of attributes your guitar will have. That's fine, but in some ways I think it is counterproductive in terms a guitar maker getting a style. Today we are expected to cater to any scale length a player wants, but really any scale length might not suit the way a certain builder actually builds; if you really follow your gut, which is really all you have after you get a grip on some basic theory, you gut might see how it is important to only do certain things. But customers will ask for things outside that range and you are expected to move with that even if it is counter to your natural instincts as a maker.

Did players go to Gerundino and try to direct how he worked? Nope. See I think more and more as I get older that people best make things the way THEY make them, not the way others think they should be made for them.

Scale is very personal for players and for makers. For every player that expresses a like or dislike of a scale length, I think makers have the same feelings and observations and preferences. But what a maker makes is driven by a market for players directing how they want the guitar to look and what scale it has. That was not always the case, and I think the old way is better, for guitar making.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2014 14:12:01
 
krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: Moraito's guitar for sale (in reply to hamia

quote:

Physics says you are wrong. To get the same frequency from a longer string length requires a higher tension.


This is true only for a string. Of course, a guitar consists of a great deal more, many parts, all vibrating.

I was a physics teacher for more than 30 years and I'm always thinking about the Physics of the guitar. But its very complicated; just so many variables.

As a luthier, I know that pulsation(stiffness) is very important to players. read carefully what Robje says in his post, and search out all the previous threads on this topic

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2014 14:23:59
 
changue

 

Posts: 187
Joined: Aug. 31 2010
From: London

RE: Moraito's guitar for sale (in reply to Escribano

quote:

I like to think each ding, scratch and stain on this particular guitar tell a very interesting story from its life.


I am virtually certain this is Moraito's father's guitar. I've seen a documentary where it's on a stand and Moraito points at it and says something like... "that Esteso was my father's..." something along those lines. Unfortunately, I can't recall what documentary/clip it was. Also, there's a comment on the linked YouTube video that seems entirely sure that it is Moraito's father's. It's none of my business, of course, but it does seem like a damn shame they have to sell it.

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2014 14:44:16
 
Shroomy726

Posts: 1327
Joined: Jun. 5 2005
From: Argentina (living in U.S.)

RE: Moraito's guitar for sale (in reply to krichards

quote:

ORIGINAL: krichards

quote:

Physics says you are wrong. To get the same frequency from a longer string length requires a higher tension.


This is true only for a string. Of course, a guitar consists of a great deal more, many parts, all vibrating.

I was a physics teacher for more than 30 years and I'm always thinking about the Physics of the guitar. But its very complicated; just so many variables.

As a luthier, I know that pulsation(stiffness) is very important to players. read carefully what Robje says in his post, and search out all the previous threads on this topic


krichards is exactly right, that is true for a single string that is perfectly anchored between two rigid points. Here we have strings that are "anchored" to two very flexible points, and that stiffness relationship is dependent on the neck and the body of the guitar. The stiffness matrix for a guitar is very complex.

And this comes from an engineer by the way, not a luthier!

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Gracias Paco por la música que nos diste. Me cambiaste la vida y nunca lo olvidaré. Que en paz descanses.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2014 15:43:43
 
machopicasso

 

Posts: 827
Joined: Nov. 27 2010
 

RE: Moraito's guitar for sale (in reply to estebanana

quote:

I'm not making any more flamencos with short scales. I dislike them and never should have consented to make the shorter ones I have made. Lesson learned.


Curiously, what constitutes a "short scale"? Less than 660? Less than 650?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 6 2014 11:13:19
 
estebanana

 

Posts: 7502
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Moraito's guitar for sale (in reply to Cloth Ears

I arbitrarily set the line at 655, but that is just me. 660 seems long, but I've seen 660 to 670 as regular scale sizes on older Condes. I used 660 when I first began, actually I call it 26" then I switched to 655, then people began to ask for 650 and under. Now I want to use 660 again or 26" to 26 1/4".

The one you have is probably 655, if I remember right. Last year a half I've been asked to do 650 a lot and I think players should try to use at least 655, my opinion of course.

But my situation is that the Japanese market likes 640 and 650 classicals, so I'm working on that which I feel is different than flamencos. There is a lot of difference between 640 and 660. I suppose that after designing a smaller classical model and working it out I want to make bigger flamencos like the older Condes and de La Chicas, Gerudino's I like. Oh yeah, I like Conde's, just not new bright blaze orange ones.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 6 2014 14:28:34

Morante

 

Posts: 1409
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Moraito's guitar for sale (in reply to estebanana

José Romero, who is one of the best ex Ramirez, told me that after many years of working independently, he had concluded that 655 was the best tiro for flamenco.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 6 2014 16:03:20
 
Bliblablub

 

Posts: 60
Joined: Oct. 9 2013
 

RE: Moraito's guitar for sale (in reply to Morante

You don't need more than 16cm. Anyone who says otherwise is lying.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 6 2014 18:32:30
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3034
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Moraito's guitar for sale (in reply to Bliblablub

How about the thickness of the neck?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 6 2014 18:54:34
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 18 2005
 

RE: Moraito's guitar for sale (in reply to Bliblablub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bliblablub

You don't need more than 16cm. Anyone who says otherwise is lying.

Hmmm....a 160mm scale. You would have to have fingers like toothpicks just to fit between the frets.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 6 2014 19:17:18
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3034
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Moraito's guitar for sale (in reply to jshelton5040

quote:

Hmmm....a 160mm scale. You would have to have fingers like toothpicks just to fit between the frets.


Meet my double bass:



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 6 2014 19:33:14
 
RobJe

 

Posts: 666
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Moraito's guitar for sale (in reply to beno

Fortunately you can find guitars of any scale length with your ideal pulsación. I have had decent guitars with scale lengths from 645 to 664 mm. The 645 was a fabulous guitar but a little narrow at the nut for my liking. The 664 which had a thick neck didn’t work very well for my increasingly arthritic fingers. From 650 to 660 I hardly notice the difference.

If a luthier has a record of making great guitars with 660 mm (say) scale I wouldn’t insist on 650 mm if I was ordering. Why rock the boat?

It’s funny how a thread on of one of Moraito’s guitars quickly developed into a discussion about scale length and string tension. My advice is that if you find yourself worrying about whether you have the correct scale length, string tension or make and tension of string you are probably getting to understand what a good flamenco guitar should feel like – but sadly, it is just not the one you currently own. You now need a better guitar not new strings.

Rob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 6 2014 21:14:33
 
odinz

Posts: 407
Joined: May 26 2010
From: Sarpsborg,Norway

RE: Moraito's guitar for sale (in reply to RobJe

About the scale lenght-tension thing, I have 25.5" (650mm?) guitars and a 27.5"(695mm) guitar, the tension is the same because I put different tension strings on them, they feel the same in terms of tension, but the difference is mostly felt because I have to stretch longer on the 27.5". Not sure if this is relevant though..

On the Moraito guitar, I think I would love to have it if it really was his, I really like his style and sound, and I think he picked the guitar up for a very good reason

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 6 2014 22:02:44
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11057
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Moraito's guitar for sale (in reply to changue

quote:

ORIGINAL: changue

quote:

I like to think each ding, scratch and stain on this particular guitar tell a very interesting story from its life.


I am virtually certain this is Moraito's father's guitar. I've seen a documentary where it's on a stand and Moraito points at it and says something like... "that Esteso was my father's..." something along those lines. Unfortunately, I can't recall what documentary/clip it was. Also, there's a comment on the linked YouTube video that seems entirely sure that it is Moraito's father's. It's none of my business, of course, but it does seem like a damn shame they have to sell it.





Here is his dad using it to accompany Chozas. Definantly a guitar with a serious flamenco pedigree.

http://youtu.be/rIycdgXaNQ4

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 8 2014 18:03:30
 
orsonw

Posts: 1400
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

Manolo Sanlucar's Conde and Paco de ... (in reply to Ricardo

Manolo Sanlucar's Conde and one of Paco de Lucia's Conde (Not the Conde) for sale. Apparently these are both short scale 632mm.

http://www.flamencoguitarsforsale.net/news/995/113/Dos-guitarras-de-PACO-DE-LUCIA-y-MANOLO-SANLuCAR-en-Solera-Flamenca/d,Noticia.html
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 8 2014 19:57:08
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