Golpeador origin

Costs are rising and times are tough.
Please consider a donation to keep this
place going.

Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.

Golpeador origin

You are logged in as Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >>Discussions >>Lutherie >>

Page: [1] 2 > >>

Message

<< Newer Topic Older Topic >>

eitanfar

Posts: 68
Joined: Oct. 16 2014

Golpeador origin

Hi,

I was wondering what was the golpeador made of before the invention of plastic ? Was it made of wood, and if so, which types of wood ?
Or maybe there was no golpeador at first ?

Thanks,
Eitan

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 18 2014 17:09:58

Escribano

Posts: 6403
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Golpeador origin (in reply to eitanfar)

Ivory?

Good question, perhaps one of our luthiers or collectors can enlighten us on the earliest known example? I would guess it was plastic/bakelite and there was nothing before that.

_____________________________

Foro Flamenco founder and Admin
My Photos

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 18 2014 17:24:53

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Golpeador origin (in reply to eitanfar)

I've seen them made of maple on some old guitars.

_____________________________

John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 18 2014 18:16:17

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Golpeador origin (in reply to eitanfar)

I went to the casa de la guitarra in Sevilla and the old flamencos there had wood golpeadores. I've got some pictures somewhere........

_____________________________

\m/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 18 2014 18:22:03

tri7/5

Posts: 570
Joined: May 5 2012

RE: Golpeador origin (in reply to eitanfar)

I actually prefer the look of wood golpe's. I wish they were more prevalent though I know attaching a plastic one is mucho easier and cheaper.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 18 2014 18:28:04

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Golpeador origin (in reply to tri7/5)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tri7/5

I actually prefer the look of wood golpe's. I wish they were more prevalent though I know attaching a plastic one is mucho easier and cheaper.

Plastic is better than wood in the same way nylon strings are better than gut. Wood scuffs and grooves very quickly from fingernails.

Plastic is neither easier nor cheaper. I doubt there are many luthiers around who don't have lots of scrap wood suitable for making wooden golpeadors, they don't use it because plastic is better.

_____________________________

John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 18 2014 19:46:59

eitanfar

Posts: 68
Joined: Oct. 16 2014

RE: Golpeador origin (in reply to eitanfar)

Thanks for all the replies.
What kind of wood wad used ?
Is there a wood that's both hard enough and light enough so that a tapa from this wouldn't need a golpeador ?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 18 2014 20:12:43

estebanana

Posts: 9197
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Golpeador origin (in reply to eitanfar)

Like the guys said Maple was common as a tap plate on Spanish guitars before plastic. Plastic wears better.

I've made three of four sets of wood tap plates for customers in repair situations. They insisted in wood tap plates, so I made them. One set I remember was made with Macassar ebony veneer and was coated with CA- Super Glue several times and sanded and buffed out. CA glue is sometimes used by some electric bass makers as a fingerboard coating to improve durability and to keep it clean. It made the wood tap plates have a more durable surface, they probably lasted twice as long or more. I can ask the guy, I still have his email.

Preparing the wood tap plates takes little longer as you have to thickness it and decide how thick it can be without compromising the strength. Maple is good, probably in the 19th century and eary 20th they used that mainly, but also beech, oak, maybe ebony.....anything goes here really. Usually they only put the tap plate under the treble side a the plate is smaller than todays plastic shapes.

Several of the books on old guitars have photos of 19th century instruments with tap plates. Up until Dionysio Aguado's time there was a left hand technique that called for the pinky finger to be rested on the top of the guitar under the bridge or under the treble strings. There are paintings and illustrations of these players, Vermeer's 'Lady with guitar' is an example, but later Spanish illustrations too, which show players resting the pinky (4th finger) on the top. Some times those guitars had a small tap pad or oval shaped patch of veneer glued where the pinky rests. Those probably were not intended as flamenco tap plates, but just as decorative places to rest the pinky and keep the top clean and protected from rich ladies fingers. Or to protect rich lades fingers from guitars, which ever way you see it.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 19 2014 0:53:57

eitanfar

Posts: 68
Joined: Oct. 16 2014

RE: Golpeador origin (in reply to eitanfar)

Thanks for the detailed answer.
I'm still wondering though, is there a wood tough enough to be used as the tapa without the need to protect it with a golpeador ?
And would such a wood be light enough and have a good sound for a flamenco guitar ?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 19 2014 3:32:16

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Golpeador origin (in reply to eitanfar)

i would imagine lignum vitae could stand up to nails but given the weight of the wood it most likely would add some serious weight to the guitar and kill the sound. if a person likes the appearance of wood as a tap plate it seems reasonable one could use a piece of laminate under plastic. likewise, i would imagine it might be possible to get plastic with a wood look.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 19 2014 9:20:05

machopicasso

Posts: 967
Joined: Nov. 27 2010

RE: Golpeador origin (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

Usually they only put the tap plate under the treble side a the plate is smaller than todays plastic shapes.

So, two questions:

1) When did the flamencos start doing the i-down-stroke golpe above the strings, for which you'd surely want a larger golpeador extending above the bass strings?

2) Was the i-down-stroke golpe the impetus for the larger golpeador, or was it something else?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 19 2014 10:06:29

estebanana

Posts: 9197
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Golpeador origin (in reply to machopicasso)

quote:

So, two questions:

1) When did the flamencos start doing the i-down-stroke golpe above the strings, for which you'd surely want a larger golpeador extending above the bass strings?

2) Was the i-down-stroke golpe the impetus for the larger golpeador, or was it something else?

I can't answer the first question, but Ricardo may know and if not he knows who to ask.

#2 A combination of things? Maybe the index finger smack, but also just guitarists who want to preserve the top, and certainly players with wide wild technique wanted it. Lot's of players overplay, they are wild.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 19 2014 12:08:02

estebanana

Posts: 9197
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Golpeador origin (in reply to keith)

quote:

i would imagine lignum vitae could stand up to nails but given the weight of the wood it most likely would add some serious weight to the guitar and kill the sound. if a person likes the appearance of wood as a tap plate it seems reasonable one could use a piece of laminate under plastic. likewise, i would imagine it might be possible to get plastic with a wood look.

Yes you could put a piece of self stick clear mylar on top of a wood veneer with a finish and then glue the whole thing to the top with white glue.

But plastic it better, I hate to say plastic is better but it just is. Unless you are willing to pay for a new tap plate of wood every year. Fine with me if you pay for it.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 19 2014 12:12:37

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Golpeador origin (in reply to machopicasso)

Judging by the really small size of the upper part of those early golpeadores, I would say that they were there to protect from the thumbnail digging the wood, not to protect the top from indicador golpes above the 6th string.

Why it went from two pieces to one full piece that covers it all? Players started scratching under the strings?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 19 2014 12:39:20

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Golpeador origin (in reply to jshelton5040)

heres a pic of Luan Breva and Paco de Lucena around 1880 and it doesnt look like they have any golpeador at all....that would just keep the luthoers and french polishers in work on a monthly basisi??

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 19 2014 13:08:23

Escribano

Posts: 6403
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Golpeador origin (in reply to El Kiko)

quote:

heres a pic of Luan Breva and Paco de Lucena around 1880 and it doesnt look like they have any golpeador at all

Which might beg the question, how long have golpes been around as we know them?

_____________________________

Foro Flamenco founder and Admin
My Photos

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 19 2014 15:27:23

estebanana

Posts: 9197
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Golpeador origin (in reply to El Kiko)

quote:

heres a pic of Luan Breva and Paco de Lucena around 1880 and it doesnt look like they have any golpeador at all....that would just keep the luthoers and french polishers in work on a monthly basisi??

Even more interesting they are playing negras. But there might be a scrap tap plate of wood you can't see in that over exposure.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 19 2014 16:05:49

gerundino63

Posts: 1731
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Golpeador origin (in reply to Escribano)

The earliest in a book I can find is: 1847.
There is one too from 1800 but that looks more like a repair.
See pictures.

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 19 2014 20:55:55

gerundino63

Posts: 1731
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Golpeador origin (in reply to Escribano)

Pictures.....

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (2)

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 19 2014 21:43:16

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Golpeador origin (in reply to gerundino63)

and what would that plate be made out of in 1847....??
or was it a later addition ...?

as to the pic i posted earlier , i zoomed in on the original as much as i could on a photo shop prgram but couldn't see any lines or marks of golpeador at all ,. which proves nothing i realize ...

_____________________________

Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 19 2014 23:14:10

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Golpeador origin (in reply to gerundino63)

Who knows when the golpeador was added to the Lorca. The other one looks like it could be original.

_____________________________

John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 19 2014 23:29:07

estebanana

Posts: 9197
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Golpeador origin (in reply to eitanfar)

The one on the Antonio Lorca is certainly a 20th century repair/replacement. Probably no earlier than the 1940's

The black oval or egg shaped patch is the small pinky rest type protection cover, probably thin ebony. Those can be seen on many late 18th and early 19th century guitars.

Especially transitional guitars, meaning guitars made in the era of transformation from baroque to modern tuned six strings. Roughly late 18th century to 1830's 40's - It was then the 4th finger on the top style of playing began to lose popularity. They used the pinky or forth finger as a stabilizing unit and also that school of playing often did not use the fingernails.

There was rasgueado long before the 19th century, it can be seen that rasgueado was called for in Baroque music. The question is when did the golpe come into use that was aggressive enough to remove wood or dent the top? By that time they must have playing with a free 4th finger.....and maybe that form existed of playing with golpe existed much earlier, but those guitars don't exist because they were too beat up to save.

When did guitar players begin playing for dances and singers in a professional setting where they would need the guitar to last and last? My guess is that the golpeador began to be standard issue when the Cafe's Cantantes' era began because the guitarist not only needed the guitar to last, but needed a hard piece of wood on the top to punctuate the noise.

That is my guess, but I don't know for certain. If I were to research it further I would begin in the Cafe Cantante setting.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 20 2014 0:56:56

Ricardo

Posts: 14231
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Golpeador origin (in reply to eitanfar)

My guess is thin wood tap plates were first used to cover damage. Probably started appearing as part of a new model later, maybe during M. Ramirez or Santos time? I only have noticed maple ones in photos and videos. I think plastic is easier to replace and clear ones keep the original look of guitar so are prefered. Some guitars still come with two pieces but of course the part under the string is in danger especially if you have a low bridge. Golpes above basses are probably just as old as below the trebles. I have no idea who started doing the index or m finger down golpe but for sure the thumb golpe above the strings is old school. Check out this guy's way to play fandango to see the technique I refer to, 5:15 for example:

http://youtu.be/Ntzi83pKQ9M

gerardo nunez demos this technique in his encuentro vid and says it is the "antiguo" way to keep percussion going, and more modern players to it less and less as we rely on cajon. (he is being cute of course). I am pretty sure I have heard R. Montoya do the technique of i or m above the basses but I will look out for a specific example. My guess is this technique predates audio recordings anyway.

Edit: Here is montoya with Chacon, just jump to the end of the recording he closes with a bunch of those type of golpes in a row.
http://youtu.be/7g-U08qV8vY

Ricardo

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 20 2014 18:04:13

jmb

Posts: 119
Joined: Oct. 14 2014
From: Vallecas - Madrid - Spain

RE: Golpeador origin (in reply to eitanfar)

This is an image of Piyayo of Málaga with his guitar (1864 - 1940)

I do know when somebody decided protect the guitar, but I'm sure tha this guitar has a hole like Willy Nelson's Trigger.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

_____________________________

Suenas payo ¡y lo sabes!

Sing and string - other flamenco blog

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 24 2014 16:23:22

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Golpeador origin (in reply to eitanfar)

Can someone point me to a video of Willie playing that guitar by itself (no amp)? His live sound is terrible for my taste but I would like to know how his guitar sounds.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 24 2014 16:26:33

Ricardo

Posts: 14231
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Golpeador origin (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins

Can someone point me to a video of Willie playing that guitar by itself (no amp)? His live sound is terrible for my taste but I would like to know how his guitar sounds.

from the other luthier thread on "ports":

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: britguy

quote:

Do you know what brand it is? I'll tell you, it's a Martin nylon string model.

Interesting you should show this: for years I've been puzzled why Willie Nelson would choose to perform with a nylon string guitar. Surely it can not be heard above the typical C&W group backing.

Anybody have any idea why?

Are you kidding? Those heavy deep basses put Metallica to shame....and those black flamenco treble strings slice through the bass drums harmonica banjo back up band like a razor sharp Ginsu. Check out his vicious rasgueado at 2:19... I thought I saw some wood chips fly out!

http://youtu.be/-49yv0k3MdE

Plenty of acoustic tonal qualities you can tell from the sound he gets here. STeel string basses, la bella trebels. Not much mystery.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2014 20:12:34

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Golpeador origin (in reply to Ricardo)

I meant I would like to hear that guitar only with a mic, without that crappy pickup sound.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2014 20:58:33

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1626
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Golpeador origin (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

Why it went from two pieces to one full piece that covers it all? Players started scratching under the strings?

Dust and dirt tend to collect in between two-piece golpeadores. Maybe that's why.

And it seems I have seen a tortoise shell golpeador somewhere in a picture of an old guitar.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2014 17:11:43

jmb

Posts: 119
Joined: Oct. 14 2014
From: Vallecas - Madrid - Spain

RE: Golpeador origin (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

Can someone point me to a video of Willie playing that guitar by itself (no amp)? His live sound is terrible for my taste but I would like to know how his guitar sounds.