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Moraito Aire   You are logged in as Guest
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revendel

 

Posts: 97
Joined: Dec. 27 2013
 

Moraito Aire 

What is it about Moraito Chico's aire that gives it a gitano feel? Is it the simplicity of his falsetas (they seem pretty simple at slow speeds)?

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 15 2014 17:20:53

ToddK

 

Posts: 2960
Joined: Dec. 6 2004
 

RE: Moraito Aire (in reply to revendel

His gitano feel comes from his...... uh.... gitano feel. LOL

You can't quantify things like that unfortunately.

It is a combination of tone, dynamics, and rhythm. Those are the ingredients,
but its the exact mixture that is so elusive.

Some have it, and some don't. I think if you work hard enough, and listen critically for long enough, you can get there. Well, at least very close anyway.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 15 2014 18:14:25
 
Arash

Posts: 4409
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From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Moraito Aire (in reply to revendel

Moraito can be quite "deceptive"
It might look simple and easy....but try to play it just like him and you will
see its not easy at all

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 15 2014 18:43:43
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12383
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Moraito Aire (in reply to revendel

It's the fact he took his own heritage (mainly his uncle's style of playing), and his direct inspiration from Paco de lucia (modern more syncopated style) and mixed it all together to create a unique and instantly recognizable sound. That is not to say he is in imitable, indeed many players have since captured a similar sound and style with their own toque. His son diego for one used be able to sound exactly like him, though he has long since developed his own thing.

Ricardo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 15 2014 20:35:39
 
revendel

 

Posts: 97
Joined: Dec. 27 2013
 

RE: Moraito Aire (in reply to Arash

I totally agree with you, playing motaito's stuff at acceptable bulerias tempo is extremely difficult. His falsetas need analyzing! I was wondering if any theorists could elaborate on his aire.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 16 2014 0:30:30
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3050
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Moraito Aire (in reply to revendel

There you go:





Now seriously, take a look at this... (and tell me where's the full thing)




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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 16 2014 0:42:26
 
revendel

 

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RE: Moraito Aire (in reply to revendel

Ha ha, awesome analysis, Diego seems to have a heavy jazz influence
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 16 2014 12:21:15
 
jamh2000

 

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Joined: Jan. 13 2012
 

RE: Moraito Aire (in reply to revendel

I think with Moraito his personality affects his technique more than other guitarists which may have a more standard technique but express themselves through rhythm and note-choice. He is a natural guitarist and attacks the strings heavily and deliberately- almost in an exaggerated way but not quite. I never feel Diego has the same strength or directness, although he's a brilliant player.
Moraito also has a few signature techniques like the 'ripping' rasgueo and arpegios played with a very still and heavy thumb and fingers working independently.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 16 2014 20:05:53
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12383
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Moraito Aire (in reply to jamh2000

An important part of his sound is the fact he uses fake nails, and they are quite long. I would not go as far to say his son "can't" play as strong as his father, but for sure he does not when playing his own music. But there is a recording of him playing for young jerez singers (at the time) such as Chiqui and Juan Zarzuela, and I could swear it is moraito playing. And of course he and his dad play together for that jerez buleria anthology and it is hard to tell who is who at times. Diego had already his own thing going on as a far back as 1999 when I saw him play for Macanita. "Jazzy" is not a term I like to use for modern flamenco players generally speaking. He used a lot of modern synchopation for sure, but the main thing is his way to use ligados and open strings, it requires a much lighter touch to keep that fluid rhythm, but I understand why some folks might not be into that as much as what his dad had going on.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 16 2014 20:23:07
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3050
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Moraito Aire (in reply to revendel

I can't hear any jazz on most of what gets pointed as "jazzy" here at the foro. All I hear is chords with more than 3 notes and open voicings/inversions... or the "jazzy Tomatito style" that usually sounds to me like "constantly moving towards dead ends".


  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 16 2014 23:29:05

ToddK

 

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RE: Moraito Aire (in reply to Sr. Martins

quote:

I can't hear any jazz on most of what gets pointed as "jazzy" here at the foro.


Yeah, it's ignorance, pure and simple.

It means that little to no attention is being paid to the meaning and origin
of Jazz music nor what Diego's musical intent is.
They are dumbing down a hugely complex musical style to a few chord
extensions and/or syncopations.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 17 2014 16:17:56
 
turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010
 

RE: Moraito Aire (in reply to revendel

It's probably just the Conde
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 17 2014 22:10:24
 
revendel

 

Posts: 97
Joined: Dec. 27 2013
 

RE: Moraito Aire (in reply to ToddK

Thanks for pointing out, had no idea. I just presumed because my jazz player friend seems to be able to relate to some chords in the more modern flamenco.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2014 11:46:07
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 2953
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Moraito Aire (in reply to revendel

From the site

http://www.pacodelucia.org/en/disc/paco-de-lucia-john-mclaughlin-al-di-meola

quote:

In an interview which Paco gave to Miriam Davison he declared: “I thought the best way for me to learn was to get together with musicians, from Jazz, for example, who are always very much at the harmonic vanguard. As always I was curious and inquisitive… I never tried to stop being a Flamenco artist, nor to dedicate myself to Jazz, nothing like that. I went with the clear idea that I was going to learn in order to later bring something new to my Flamenco and try to grow in some way.”


Jazz musicians in the 1940s-1950s were listening to the classical composers Bartok, Hindemith and Stravinsky, among others, to learn new harmonic ideas they incorporated into jazz. But they weren't playing classical music, they were still playing jazz.

It would be fair to say they were influenced by classical music, just as Paco's flamenco music was influenced by his experience with jazz musicians.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2014 15:59:05
 
tele

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Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: Moraito Aire (in reply to revendel

Calling some of the modern flamenco jazzy does not degrade it, besides several of the popular flamenco guitarists play with popular jazz musicians. It is one source where they bring new ideas into flamenco. Flamenco players also perform often in jazz festivals. There certainly can be heard alot of jazz influences in modern flamenco, which is not a bad thing nor does it make it any less "puro". Jazz was/is music of innovators and when flamenco is evolving so fast it's inevitable that there will be some guitarists bringing jazzy aspects to flamenco. Meaning using similar chords and scale/arpeggio runs as used in jazz. Also the archtop guitar is so different from flamenco guitar that it for sure will be nearly impossible to make it sound just like jazz but that's not the point. So what's the problem in describing some songs or playing styles jazzy? I hear no jazz in diego del morao's playing either but certainly it's jazzy in terms of novel chords, fast playing and lots of syncopation and innovation. Should we just call it modern then?
Also, to my ears some modern flamenco guitarists sound more "jazz-influenced" than others, some don't sound flamenco at all. After all it really is a challenge to do new things and still have the flamenco essence in it.

I just don't understand Ricardo's and Todd's dissing of the term. I think jazz music plays a big part in flamenco today and we should respect it, not dislike it, also the part where some guitarists playing has jazz vibe or infulence in it.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2014 21:01:02
 
edguerin

Posts: 1539
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Moraito Aire (in reply to revendel

For those of you that can read Spanish:



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

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Ed

El aficionado solitario
Alemania
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 19 2014 7:38:11
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3050
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Moraito Aire (in reply to edguerin

Well... I guess anyone can write books, the same goes for who gets to play jazz festivals nowadays


I didn't say there aren't players who throw jazz elements into their music. What I meant is that any player who spreads his fingers instead of playing straight traditional chords gets immediately coined as "jazzy".
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 19 2014 8:48:04
 
machopicasso

 

Posts: 899
Joined: Nov. 27 2010
 

RE: Moraito Aire (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

"Jazzy" is not a term I like to use for modern flamenco players generally speaking.


One thing which would help some of us understand what you mean is if you provided some compare/contrast examples of the following:

1) What you would consider to be bona fide jazz-influenced flamenco playing; and
2) Flamenco playing which you think is (or would be) mistakenly labeled as "jazzy".

Can you provide an example of each with respect to, say, Gerardo's recordings?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 19 2014 10:14:42
 
edguerin

Posts: 1539
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Moraito Aire (in reply to Sr. Martins

quote:

el.. I guess anyone can write books

Yeah, just like anyone can post on a forum ....

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Ed

El aficionado solitario
Alemania
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 19 2014 16:17:58
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3050
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Moraito Aire (in reply to edguerin

quote:

Yeah, just like anyone can post on a forum ....


Exactly.

The same goes for people who are able to quote only half of a sentence and turn a joke into something harsh.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 19 2014 16:33:53
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3067
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Moraito Aire (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

just as Paco's flamenco music was influenced by his experience with jazz musicians.


Exactly, Richard. And it became even more pronounced as he added additional instruments such as the bass guitar. It was still flamenco, and not necessarily what some have called "jazzy," but it certainly was jazz-influenced.

Bill

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 19 2014 20:45:58
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12383
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Moraito Aire (in reply to machopicasso

quote:

ORIGINAL: machopicasso

quote:

"Jazzy" is not a term I like to use for modern flamenco players generally speaking.


One thing which would help some of us understand what you mean is if you provided some compare/contrast examples of the following:

1) What you would consider to be bona fide jazz-influenced flamenco playing; and
2) Flamenco playing which you think is (or would be) mistakenly labeled as "jazzy".

Can you provide an example of each with respect to, say, Gerardo's recordings?



This topic has been covered way beyond a good kicking to a dead horse. As I have always said, there will be specific applications directly taken from specific jazz artists and infused into say, a falseta....in other cases simply having a "chart" of chords, a repetative chord progression with a "head" falseta which creates a framework over which musicians, flamenco or otherwise, can improvise whilest maintaining compas. When discussing modern flamenco labled too often as "jazzy", these specific examples I refer to are in the vast minority. And as always my counter example of 100% non jazzy yet modern flamenco is the music of Manolo Sanlucar post tauromagia.

Some Gerardo examples, Gallo Azul it's all puro buleria till the end when he has the repeat chord progression he improvises over. Same deal with his Solea por buleria on Andando del tiempo, the only 'Jazz" part is the improve section...if that section did not exist or was avoided from the performance, there is no need for a "Jazz" adjective whatsoever. Other examples have elements of Brazillian style progressions or playing, faletas here or there, that I always have argued as specifically NOT jazz related. Others argue Brazillian guitar is ALL jazzy. Any way, it misses the bigger point I have tried to make. Finally, there is alot of "latin jazz" or "salsa" influence, again I consider a different than proper "Jazz" genre...gerardo's rumba on andando del tiempo or "flamencos en nueva york" are specific examples. In terms of percentages, in the bigger picture of the repertoire and style of Gerardo, it can be frustrating that these few examples have given him (in the past) the label as a "jazzy flamenco" composer and player, while at the same time overlooking what specifically and more generally is totally JEREZANO about his toque.

To add, the impressionistic classical influence on Jazz players need not mean we now hear the modern flamenco influenced by jazz...we already have things like the de Falla influence directly bypassing Jazz artists. I am always happy however to acknowledge specific musical examples. Remember even Paco recorded an entire album of de Falla's music BEFORE he learned any super locrian scales and applications from Mclaughlin.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 19 2014 21:28:24
 
machopicasso

 

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RE: Moraito Aire (in reply to Ricardo

Thanks for kicking the horse again. That's very helpful.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 20 2014 9:31:54
 
tele

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Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: Moraito Aire (in reply to revendel

Gerardo is one of the greats like Paco de lucia who has made new type of flamenco music without it losing it's flamenco essence. That's what i told him about a year ago, even though I'm sure he knows it himself. Someone calling it jazzy would be only for a lack of better term. Technical and with unusual chords, sure.

Doing something like that is so difficult that most who try to do something completely new in flamenco or play only in a modern style end up having very little flamenco essence in their playing, there are some exceptions but people like Gerardo and Paco are the one's who really move flamenco forward without making it sound part something else. Can't say the same for Vicente Amigo for example even when he's a great player, can't call him jazzy either.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 20 2014 11:42:28
 
revendel

 

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RE: Moraito Aire (in reply to tele

Also, I would add Pepe Habichuela to the list above, his mix with indian instruments & middle eastern raspiness (remate) is stunning.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 20 2014 15:36:38
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