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Posts: 219
Joined: Jun. 22 2012
From: Seattle, USA
RE: Newbie question: 650 or 640? (in reply to Ruphus)
Some perspective please...
The original poster is "a total beginner wishing to start with Flamenco guitar." And you guys are arguing about 640 vs 650 vs 660 vs 670 etc. Might as well also argue about string tension or the best hair length, or the optimal number of buttons to leave unbuttoned on your shirt, or how many gold chains to wear - none of that is very responsive to the poster's needs ...
For a total beginner who has no playing experience, no left-hand flexibility or strength, etc., the scale length is really irrelevant. Buy the 650 because it has resale value in case you don't enjoy or are not successful in learning Flamenco (the 640 will be hard to resell.)
IF, after playing for a year or more, you find you just can't do the stretches, THEN perhaps investigate a smaller scale length. Regardless, a cejilla on fret 1 will change a 650 into a 613, and will change a 670 into a 632, so you really can't go wrong by just buying the best sounding guitar you can afford.
Hand problems in my opinion are not predominately caused by the scale length, but by a lot of other positioning and use factors - you can get focal dystonia with a 640 as easily as with a 670 if you don't play correctly.
What the original poster needs most is a guitar - the biggest mistake he could make is to spend years trying to find the perfect guitar before even knowing how to play.
RE: Newbie question: 650 or 640? (in reply to Leñador)
quote:
Manolo Sanlucar has hands smaller then my Vietnamese girlfriend and he doesn't appear to have any issues.......
Is this code for saying your girl has "man hands" ? As in Seinfeld man hands? Good on you for staying with her and not letting 'Costanzaisms' rule your life.
RE: Newbie question: 650 or 640? (in reply to Sr. Martins)
Timoteo's post makes excellent points and I'll build a bit more on that~
Let's stay focused on what the OP actually asked about:
He presented a formula of measuring your own handa;
"If the distance between the tip of your thumb and the tip of your little finger is equal or less than 9 in (230 mm). when fully stretched, use 640 mm. "
This is clearly a fallacy because one persons physiognomy is different from the next. And guitarists have proven over time one can play any scale length with just about any size hands, if it suits them both musically and physically. The most salient point, is that scale length and hand and body injury can be related, but scale length alone does not cause the injury. It is very important to not disseminate the false idea that scale length will protect one from injury, because the fact is it will not.
The road to preventing injury is not small instruments; learning to play without holding tensions in the body prevents injuries. Smaller scales may be more comfortable and correct for some players, or have historical musical value they are interested in, but a small instrument is not a guarantee that a player will not develop physical problems. There are many more factors at play in the body than simply the hand size which determine how much tension the body holds while playing.
In some players minds, the issue of scale length too often gets mixed up with the practice of playing without holding tension. Understanding and recognizing the feeling in the body when playing mindfully with relaxation is more important than thinking ( often falsely) that a smaller instrument will keep one from being injured.
RE: Newbie question: 650 or 640? (in reply to Sr. Martins)
quote:
Is this code for saying your girl has "man hands" ? As in Seinfeld man hands? Good on you for staying with her and not letting 'Costanzaisms' rule your life.
Lololol that was great, cracks lobster bare handed.
Posts: 3497
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Newbie question: 650 or 640? (in reply to timoteo)
quote:
Hand problems in my opinion are not predominately caused by the scale length, but by a lot of other positioning and use factors
Exactly. That was (and is) my position in recommending the 650 to 655 scale length.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: Newbie question: 650 or 640? (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
quote:
Hand problems in my opinion are not predominately caused by the scale length, but by a lot of other positioning and use factors
Exactly. That was (and is) my position in recommending the 650 to 655 scale length.
Bill
Just for the matter of meaningfulness or consistency: With the above you are actually engaging what you implied to me with
quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
Your key phrase "considerably larger" appears meant to bolster your case for the 640 scale.
What has been said pro shorter scales was an ordinary fact, which is that oversized guitars mean a needless hurdle to the player. -Which also remains a retained circumstance, independetly of how well a player may master an additional challenge with unfitting proportions.
That was the statement. Noone claimed that "hand problems" would be "predominately caused by the scale length".
That is what you guys introduced in order to "to bolster your case" of one guitar size fitting everyone. -
With me now sealing the case by stating that manufacturers are overdue with routingly offering a variety of proportions to meet people´s ergonomics, you may add that offering a slim range of specs has not been the main reason for guitar makers´ economical misery. Just to keep the bolster jolting. hehehe
RE: Newbie question: 650 or 640? (in reply to Sr. Martins)
Focal distonia is not the result of wrong practicing. I have focal distonia, but I never practiced wrong. The result of wrong practicing are mainly wrong executed movements of the fingers. These results can be revised backwards quite easyly while focal distonia is a more complex process of neural disfunction being activated by some different uncontrolable impulses in the subconsciousness. To get these motorical issues corrected, it takes years while the other part of wrong training can very often be corrected by focused mental traning within 2 until 4 months. But this is no main focus for a beginner.
I keep disagreeing to argue with stretching excercises. Even Manolo Sanlucar as someone who has 10th of years of practice is no measure for a beginner, even if he´d have small hands. This is absolutely irrelevant for a beginner who even is not able himself to detect if he might have shortend extensors; in this case you can have the biggest hands and will get serious problems. So the best and most practical way to focus on standard measures.
You probably got more than you bargained for in the responses to your request for advice Re scale length, Moraito. In any case, I hope you take the responses under consideration, try instruments of various scale lengths, and make the choice that, in the long run, will work best for you.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
If you can find one, try a 640mm. Thumb to little finger, my reach is 220mm and I have had no problems with many different types of guitars. Action, neck relief, fingerboard width & shape are much more important comfort factors for me.
RE: Newbie question: 650 or 640? (in reply to Escribano)
quote:
Thumb to little finger, my reach is 220mm
Mine is only 200, but I have been playing a 660 guitar for many years sin problemas. Gibsons feel cramped to me. A flamenco guitar is almost always played with a cejilla. Try accompaning Malagueñas at fret 9 and you will be glad of a 670 scale
RE: Newbie question: 650 or 640? (in reply to Sr. Martins)
Another point to mind is that with 640 scale the string tension of standard string sets is also lower, so you have to work out which strings are really working on that given guitar.
_____________________________
Music is a big continent with different lascapes and corners. Some of them I do visit frequently, some from time to time and some I know from hearsay only ...
A good musical instrument is one that inspires one to express as free as possible
RE: Newbie question: 650 or 640? (in reply to Sr. Martins)
If you don't want to deal with all this rubbish, you can also do what I did. Get a standard scale length guitar that has a cutaway & always play with a capo on the second fret. That way, you bypass all this crap unless you plan on always playing pieces that require 19 frets, in which case you can get a custom instrument that has a fretboard with 21 frets...
Cheers!
PS: Hopefully you won't get dinged because a cutaway is not a "real flamenco" guitar.
PPS: Just try things out & find what suits you the most, and try not to buy really inexpensive, factory-made guitars because likely they are going to be harder to play to begin with...
RE: Newbie question: 650 or 640? (in reply to Leñador)
quote:
Practicing drunk is a good way to learn what relaxed playing feels like
I agree. I played while drunk (PWD) last night and I played a steel string guitar with a lap top computer on my lap open to a page that had the chords and lyrics to Ziggy Stardust. I sang and played Ziggy Stardust on a 640 scale Gibson copy and I took note of how this feels.
I'm still feeling the after feeling now that I have woken up.
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