RE: Let's have a conversation about Women participants and and the Foro

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Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to ralexander)

quote:

use your REPORT ABUSE buttons

Now changed to "REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE", so it should stand out a little more.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 6 2014 18:54:51

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to Ruphus)

Ruphus, I don't think it's hypocrisy. We all know Stephen's very emotional and it's not too hard to push his buttons and get him to react. It wouldn't be hard to set you off on a rant, either, would it? Or me... or most of us. That's the beautiful thing about long-term relationships, we know how to best antagonize each other. :)

It's the pushing button behavior that, IMO, that should be examined.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 6 2014 19:15:17

Kalo

Posts: 400
Joined: Jan. 25 2011

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to Escribano)

Okay, this came to mind that might help guys with all this Female stuff.

For 8 years, I played electric guitar. I am tough on myself and I practiced my butt off.

I can play Jimi Hendrix, blues, rock, etc. I even programmed all my chain of effects.

However, back then what was REALLY offending was when I would participate in our weekly Jam nights ala BLUES!!!

I would get passed up and would end up having to go last because no one wanted to give me a chance because I was a female.

I might point out that this happened before anyone heard my playing...so, I would sit and have to wait HALF the night..

In the meantime, I would have dudes come up to me showing off about how well they played and make rude remarks to me that I would not care to share.

I was told by a great mentor of mine to not comment on the rudeness and just let my playing do the talking..

So, that is what I did and as much as I don't want to admit this...MOST of the times, I would out play some of the men!

So, I think this is the same for flamenco guitar...Women don't want to be brushed off and pre judged...We want to be given a fair chance.

Going back to my rock guitar playing days, after I played I would receive comments like, "wow you play like a man"...

At one point there was this guy who heard that comment and said, Dude, that is rude to be telling her "she plays like a man"...

I realize this guy who was being "politically correct" felt that this comment offended me, but, I realized that this person who made the comment was just trying to be nice and compliment my playing..

I was not OFFENDED in the least.

I will admit that I've read some insulting posts on guys dissing each others playing which made me hesitant to post more playing of myself...

Again, this is just my two cent as a female

Kalo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 6 2014 19:17:48

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to Escribano)

Well, Christina and Kalo are the only two females to answer so I think that pretty much settles it.
To sum up:
1)Sure there's some chauvinistic potty mouth comments from SOME members. But in all the forum is fine and that's not the reason for low female participation.
2)We are sometimes too negative and get in pissing contests.

I know I'm guilt of the latter but sometimes when someone is wrong it's just SOOO hard to let them keep being wrong! lolol

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 6 2014 19:41:34

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria

Ruphus, I don't think it's hypocrisy. We all know Stephen's very emotional and it's not too hard to push his buttons and get him to react. It wouldn't be hard to set you off on a rant, either, would it? Or me... or most of us. That's the beautiful thing about long-term relationships, we know how to best antagonize each other. :)

It's the pushing button behavior that, IMO, that should be examined.

Noone is responsible for buttons other than the person who has them.

I am surprised to see you categorizing "rant" regardless.

There is however an essential difference between sticking to contents / actual argumenting and the ressorting to vulgar offending way off from any topical clue.

You know, if contents appear annoying to a mindset without it finding any countering argument / hence ressorting to mere cursing, it should be at the very least in the aftermath be educated enough to figure that it is having a weak stand in a discussion while lacking the integrity and dedication to the truth for to check out own position for inconsistancy.
... Instead of unrolling the same method of incongruency and ressort over and over again.

"Rant", you say? All the same?
Railing with passion for matters is fundamentally different from primitively trying to conceal factual impotence through personal attacking.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 6 2014 20:39:37

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

There is however an essential difference between sticking to contents / actual argumenting and the ressorting to vulgar offending way off from any topical clue.

That has already been pointed out by me. Let's stick to the topic. Over and over, I keep seeing this meme in my head.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 6 2014 20:48:37

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Aug. 15 2014 17:13:03

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 6 2014 21:01:03

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to Escribano)

quote:

I keep seeing this meme in my head.

Hilarious and totally true! hahaha

quote:

kalo, interesting perspective and one few of us males encounter even when we males venture onto traditional female turfs.

Right, men just deal with other men putting their manhood into question. We really are a-holes huh? haha

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 6 2014 21:13:09

Kalo

Posts: 400
Joined: Jan. 25 2011

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to Escribano)

Seriously, I really like the foro!

Nothing is perfect and I do believe the foro is a great place to share flamenco passion.

I am sure if more women played flamenco guitar they would participate! Again, there isn't a lot of women playing flamenco guitar and the ones that do (including me and Cristina) are participating right now! Also remember, former members such as alisa MIGHT have venture a different avenue and no longer interested in flamenco guitar...

There are guys on this forum that used to participate and no longer post and I don't believe it's because of the insults and or edge this forum has. Guys loose interest as well! Also LIFE gets in the way and sometimes it's not always easy to keep the passion going!

I am also thinking that having a section dedicated to "dance" might be cool as it might spark some interest for more dancers, female and male to participate!

Kalo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 6 2014 21:31:29

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to Escribano)

quote:

I am also thinking that having a section dedicated to "dance" might be cool as it might spark some interest for more dancers, female and male to participate!

I was thinking that too.
I'll force my girlfriend and her friends to join.

A section for cante would be nice too but I think most Cantaores are too busy drinking Mazanilla, smoking and telling people how awesome they are. hahaha

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 6 2014 21:57:23

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to Leñador)

Please no.... I come on here to get AWAY from dancers for a while.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 6 2014 22:07:15

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

A section for cante would be nice too but I think most Cantaores are too busy drinking Mazanilla, smoking and telling people how awesome they are. hahaha

I was just thinking trying to get some cante together myself... might not be a bad idea to have a cante and a dance section to try to break out of the guitar ghetto.

There is a bada** guitarist (electric) girl here in town that I just love and want to bring her to gigs. She said that one of the secrets to being taken seriously as a female guitarist is to pretend that you can't sing. If you can sing, you will be pigeonholed as a singer-songwriter. She's been pro for at least 25 years.

Another thing to keep in mind is that Kalo and Cristina, represent the females that have chosen to stick around here. We can only guess at the mindset of the (possibly) many that might have contributed, were it not for the prevailing environment.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 6 2014 22:10:10

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

Another thing to keep in mind is that Kalo and Cristina, represent the females that have chosen to stick around here. We can only guess at the mindset of the (possibly) many that might have contributed, were it not for the prevailing environment.

I think there are three elements in the prevailing environment that might keep some females from participating or that caused former female participants to drop off. (And, by the way, that add nothing to a discussion or debate.)

A. The negativity, bad-mouthing, one-upmanship, and lack of civility that sometimes characterize discussions ranging from flamenco knowledge and opinions to off-topic themes.

B. As has been brought out in this thread, the foul language that is thrown around and that adds nothing to the discussion.

C. Finally (and related to B, above), the sometimes juvenile use of language describing body parts and bodily functions that (as I have noted in previous posts on this thread) would lead one to believe that the membership consists of 12-year old school boys telling "potty jokes" on the playground.

Intuitively and without evidence, I would hazard a guess that "C" might be the most important reason women stay away. After all, what mature, thoughtful woman wants to share her thoughts and opinions with a group of grown men acting like 12-year old schoolboys?

It might be that they are not overly "offended" by such conduct; rather, it may be that they want to participate and interact with mature men who display a certain decorum in discussing various topics. That Kalo and Cristina hang on is a credit to their tenacity and their ability to discern that the Foro consists of more than grown men acting like schoolboys. But how many women may have read the Foro and were turned off by the comments they initially encountered?

Bill

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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 6 2014 22:47:48

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to Escribano)

quote:

C. Finally (and related to B, above), the sometimes juvenile use of language describing body parts and bodily functions that (as I have noted in previous posts on this thread) would lead one to believe that the membership consists of 12-year old school boys telling "potty jokes" on the playground.

Intuitively and without evidence, I would hazard a guess that "C" might be the most important reason women stay away. After all, what mature, thoughtful woman wants to share her thoughts and opinions with a group of grown men acting like 12-year old schoolboys?

I really don't think it's that bad. Out of 100 people that participate maybe 2-3 fall under this. Also, the only two girls to comment didn't bring this up at all. I think it's because they're smart enough not to judge a whole community by a few peoples comments.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 6 2014 23:05:57

Pgh_flamenco

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to Leñador)

I don't post often anymore, but I still check the site daily. I'm not actively pursuing flamenco guitar these days so my motivation to participate has decreased quite a bit. Also, topical posts tend to be a bit repetitive here—how many threads can anyone read about fingernails, strings, etc. Also, after Ron died, Florian stopped posting and Jason was banned the foro seemed a bit unfamiliar to me. Fortunately several core members and some new members helped the foro to continue to thrive.

Perhaps the poll should have been directed at female FF members to better understand their experience on the foro instead of making assumptions about what we think their experience is.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 7 2014 0:36:19

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

Also, the only two girls to comment didn't bring this up at all. I think it's because they're smart enough not to judge a whole community by a few peoples comments.

I agree, Lenador, and I commended both Kalo and Cristina for that. But what about a woman who comes upon the Foro for the first time and sees some of the juvenile comments that occasionally occur? they might be turned off by such nonsense. Again, I have no evidence; it's just a possibility.

Bill

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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 7 2014 0:53:30

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to Escribano)

Regarding negativity:

What do you expect?
Hula hoop dancing before a global inferno?

If you don´t like negativity then try countering the desaster out there; not its mentioning or eventual effects on the people.

It is only natural to see negativity before a desastrous background.
Anything else would be paradox.

And in fact, some years from now you might rather possibly be in disbelieve about how we today have been largely conducting as if things were in order.
This is not 1970.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 7 2014 9:38:16

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

Regarding negativity: What do you expect?

I expect more than relentless, tunnel-vision negativity from those who regard themselves as intellectually astute individuals. I expect an intellectually vibrant discussion of the topic at hand without name-calling and lack of civility, where each side debating the issue respects the other, even while disagreeing with each other.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 7 2014 10:57:44

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to BarkellWH)

There, another example of incongruency.

You were saying that you don´t want negativity. I then pointed out how you wish no negativity before desastrous background.
With you then evading into what kind of negativity you would not be wanting ( -> "tunneled"), whereas a congruent and honest reply would have been that you just prefer to fade out negative news of the world.

And what the "tunnel-vision negativity" is concerned, it makes me wondering what kind of media you consume, or how you do.

For my part, curently vastly limited to online presentation of "Der Spiegel" and "Die Zeit" as well as news and docus of a German states TV-channel ( ZDF), I am supplied with "relentless" ( is that the term?) reports of destruction and ( upcoming) escalation. With scientific findings on environmental decay all the time and ever faster surpassing former predictions, whilst on the political field a race on mineral resources is leading to confrontation all over Asia, Europe and the USA.
( Just last weeks info on fished-out and waste / mercury toxicated oceans, extincting species, shrunk Amazonas Basin etc. and on political aggravation has been extremely alarming material for hours on end.)

How would your "intellectually vibrant discussion" allow for anything less than that?

Would that be like with one forum member who sometime ago down-played climate change and the increased occurance of hurricans in the USA by saying that nothing had changed? ( With me wondering if that person would still keep neglecting, now that no meteorologist should dare to utter such deliberate blind man's buff.)
-

The USA have been ranking first in the world with denying the ecological desaster and with casting propaganda films to the people in US according to which for instance CO² issues were inventions of economical competitors who were merely aiming to sabotage US economics by requesting environmental investments into pollution filtering etc.
And so it mustn´t wonder that you as employee of US adminstration might have been aligned to that agenda for the past decades.

However, your still retained vision of a significantly lesser effected world makes me wonder if the mainstream media in the USA are still covering up the ecological situation.

Are they, or is it just that you prefer to skip corresponding reports / negativity?

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 7 2014 13:25:14

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to Ruphus)

Thank you, Ruphus, for providing the perfect example of what I was talking about in my comment above.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 7 2014 13:29:51

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to BarkellWH)

Seen by the logical skills that you appear to assign, you must be counting with a debil audience.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 7 2014 13:35:18

ralexander

Posts: 797
Joined: Jun. 1 2010
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to Escribano)

quote:

I had a wild night in Halifax many years ago, on payday which I think was a Thursday. Only place I have been in Canada Ended up on the roof terrace of a bar somewhere downtown.

Sounds about right! Drop me a line if you ever come back, and we'll tour some of the other great bars (we have a few, it's kind of a thing here) and then cap the night off with some messy donairs.

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Ryan

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 7 2014 15:32:59

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to BarkellWH)

ok .... i'm back .........did i miss anything ??......all sorted out now ??

Excellent...........

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 7 2014 19:57:54

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to Escribano)

Intellectually vibrant discussion means staying focused on one topic at a time. And if there are diversions into other subjects then a good panel of conversationalists will gently draw the topic back in focus when it gets to far out.

One of the reasons for discord in conversations here is due to the tendency for off topic remarks to knock a conversation off center. The conversation has trouble getting back to it main focus. Being vituperative and belligerent about your point of view when it goes off topic never helps. We can disagree, but you have make salient point first which goes with the topic. if you just want to bring in ten topics and angrily lump them together the world will never solve any problems.

I think it is ok for people to have conviction and passion about a subject, and even at times to speak about them forcefully if they think they are being true, but random anger about everthing at once is disruptive to the community.

Am I a bit crazy? Yep, But in Foro context I make up for it by being generous with my sharing of my working methods. In my opinion. You are welcome to disagree, if you can stay on topic.
.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 8 2014 3:16:18

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to estebanana)

your post itself is off topic ...
you have written a lot of advice that i think you should take yourself ...

reading back on the posts , including the deleted ones ,, i dont think you handled it very well at all ... i would describe it as ''dissapointing ''...

Am I a bit crazy? Yep, But in Foro context I make up for it by not swearing at people that bug me .....in my opinion. You are welcome to disagree, if you can stay on topic.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 8 2014 9:33:57

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to estebanana)

Very funny!

"On topic" like evading to ad hominem vulgarity whenever been proven of inconsistency.
Or like going off with collegial grudge in a thread about wood, etc.

Off topic is not the issue, and for "intellectually vibrant discussions" participants should before all be aiming to ensure distinguishing between subjective precondition like wishful thinking / rejection of wordly facts and coherences and what could be a sincere debate.
And last not least, the skill of keeping up a logical string in an argument wouldn´t hurt either.
-

When truely enslaving oneself to factual priority there remains so much of erring still, but when tailoring perception ( or rather exclusion for that matter) to personal preference and jumping from one blocked logical aspect to another to escape unwanted meanings ... it makes for no bowing to reality, let alone for an "intellectually vibrant" one.

From what I think to see, the most vibrant rejection here on the foro, just as in life, ( apart of religious controversies) seems to be happening when political / societal infamy and specially the ecological state are mentioned.
( Things for most solidly documented and there to stay.)

Reaction to it basically coming in with buddhist principle, obviously assuming what be faded out will not be in existance either.
I don´t know about vibrancy, but intellectual such mental proceeding certainly isn´t.
Rather does it seem to me like escaping stand of tailoring.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 8 2014 10:09:24

cristina

Posts: 47
Joined: Mar. 7 2014

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

Being vituperative and belligerent about your point of view when it goes off topic never helps.

important point!

to another culture of debate and comunication in the foro also could contribute:

don't "fight back" immediatly. The faster the reactions, the harder and wilder the words.

Old ruse: take some deep breathes after reading the post before - so one can react with more calm.
(and reflect upon if it is worthy -it's YOUR time and energy)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 8 2014 11:27:36

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to cristina)

quote:

Old ruse: take some deep breathes after reading the post before - so one can react with more calm. (and reflect upon if it is worthy -it's YOUR time and energy)

Wise words indeed!

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 8 2014 13:43:02

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to BarkellWH)

As we drift into off-topic directions once again, I think this thread has run its course. Thanks for the constructive comments and I will take them onboard.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 8 2014 16:13:37