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RE: Let's have a conversation about Women participants and and the Foro   You are logged in as Guest
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El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to Sr. Martins

O Sr , Martins ,,
Tenho feito suficiente deles,,.. o próximo é para outro pa organizar, ..talvez tu?

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Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 5 2014 17:49:27
 
cristina

 

Posts: 47
Joined: Mar. 7 2014
 

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to estebanana

wise words Kiko,

but look: there were yet ideas:

"change the culture: And that's something that anyone who cares about it can do." - and yourself said something similar : "you cant change what has happened .. all you can do is .. starting from now , change things ... "

Yes, one hardly can change the behaviour of others, but yes can change (diffficult sometimes also) his own acting and so add his grain of sand to another culture.

concerning the silence and the invisible posts: Maybe your right and I've over-interpreted. But I think, there's a difference between long-term-members and the first contribution.
Yes, me too I was enjoying in the falseta swap shop some of your falsetas (and also some from others) and didnt comment. I thought - these old guys will know how welcomed their contributions are.
But sincerly - just didn't make time for it. I'm sorry about this and I'll try to change.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 5 2014 17:50:05
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

Fear not! (in reply to estebanana

Dispute is feared by a mislead understanding of harmony. A phenomenon greatly inflated by a Hollywood tradition of displaying agreement through "perfect harmony".

In fact, in oudated ( yet still alive and major) culture unable to pragmatically dispute / always at the risk of irrational outcome and escalation the fear of controversial discussion is only understandable.
Yet, the fancying of actual harmony to arise from appeasement remains wrong.

Instead fearless and rational dispute is valuable precondition for authentic trust and harmony.
However, common sense ( largely still even in modern society) is still such shying away and fearing dispute that it will literally halicunate when even just witnessing controversy.

And from there with its emotional panicking it cannot intellectually tell apart conclusive context / discourse of congruency, from mere pigheaded being / disrespect to a matter.
-

Don´t fear dispute, folks. Not anymore in this time and age, and centuries after people used to think that physical defeat was equalling being in the right.

Questioning and controversy are the essentials of any intellectual and emotional advance. It has brought to us all that we have as sobriety and science.

And if you enjoy a real friendship, then you should be familiar with a strong boundary that comes from trust in fairness and from fearlessness from dispute.

Read one of the lectures that once made me erringly confident that we would be greatly advancing with dispute culture before the new millenia. ( And there seemed some progress then indeed, at least with the avantgarde and subculture, which however appears to have vastly degenerated again.)
http://www.amazon.com/The-Intimate-Enemy-George-Bach/dp/0380001861

Long live controversy and intelligent dispute!
Let it occure, and appreciate it.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 5 2014 17:58:01
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3462
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Fear not! (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

Long live controversy and intelligent dispute!
Let it occure, and appreciate it.


I agree, Ruphus. And I think there has been enough debate (and dispute) over various topics on the Foro, from politics and economic systems to interpretations of flamenco and what constitutes correct compas, to keep life interesting. No one I have seen posting on the Foro has suggested that we refrain from such debate.

But there is a difference between engaging in honest debate over a topic, where both sides present compelling evidence while respecting each others' position, and one side or the other calling his opponent "ignorant" or "uninformed" or worse, because he disagrees with his interlocutor's position. Not to beat a dead horse, but it comes back to respect for your opponent, even though you may disagree with him. That applies to both men and women.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 5 2014 18:12:01
 
akatune

 

Posts: 188
Joined: Mar. 28 2008
 

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to El Kiko

I don't really see. No one is talking about going back to posts for 5 years. Going to unreasonable extremes in a discussion does not help. Your post is not very coherent.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 5 2014 18:15:24
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to akatune

Yes, there was ,, a post earlier discussing the possibility of viewing female members joining since 2005 and also that there should be or have been a survey done on why they are leaving ...you would have to go back to read that post ... no matter

I , obviously, dont see my post as being not very coherent,
i will make it as coherent as I can ...

This ......

If members think there is a problem for women on this forum ...what do you suggest is done to alleviate this ....?

OK ?

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Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 5 2014 18:46:39
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to El Kiko

quote:

If members think there is a problem for women on this forum ...what do you suggest is done to alleviate this ....?


Summer Challenge!



_____________________________

"Ya no me conoce el sol, porque yo duermo de dia"
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 5 2014 19:00:52
 
akatune

 

Posts: 188
Joined: Mar. 28 2008
 

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to El Kiko

I guess, in an ideal world, such a discussion would be seen by offending members. They would in turn realize the damage of their interaction has caused and understand the majority of the good folks here agree with a higher standard of behavior. Then maybe they could behave accordingly.

But in reality this probably won't happen. It's why people always need bosses, to straighten them out. I say the admin has the authorization and responsibility to get rid of these people. Yeah, I hate censorship, too. And I am a staunch believe that politically correct culture/communication in BS. But we have to draw the line somewhere when it comes to alienating people for absolutely no reason than an urge to be foul.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 5 2014 19:22:26
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to akatune

now you have said it ... its that itself ....

but now you see the problem ,,, how can admin . regulate such a thing ?..
Admin often rely on the integrit yof members and act upon reported incidents ..
no reports no action ...
what rules exactly have been broken ...?

I understand your post completely akatune ,
...in an ideal world...as you said this discussion wouldnt take place at all ...
yes admin .. and the top man himself can , and has, banished people off this site...
since he owns the site , i could be banished for the colour of my shoes .. or any other reason ,,, and thats that ...
However , who can really say that is not right on some perhaps borderline cases ?/

its tricky ,,
for example your own nickname does not instantly say to me that you are female ....I tend to treat people all the same anyway ... however the other member cristina , well yes female

someone may say something to you not realizing your gender ... then what /?

every member has the right to complain about any other member ,or ''ignore ''any member the rules you see have to be for everyone ...
or that would cause a further injustice ...

Perhaps , for example there should be another section for flamenco dance ....
this section would probably attract more women than men ,, and since there are female guitarists here as well ..
the extra section may change the dynamics of the foro in general ...

I know , i havent thought this through , i'm just typing from my head now...

but thats another idea from me though, i might get a point for trying ...




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Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 5 2014 19:44:08
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to El Kiko

Okay, El Kiko, I know you're just trying to participate in a discussion, but you're coming across as argumentative. You have an opinion, which you've made clear. Others are also stating their opinions. Nothing will be accomplished by denying what they feel. It simply leads to flamewars. Respect the forum and help keep the peace.

And Sr. Martins, your post was out of line. You may think you're being funny, but many women are going to be turned off, as am I.

(Mark: I was actually thinking about Alaska deep-sea crab fishermen. Do you know some girls who do that? Huh? Huh?!? :))

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Arizona Wedding Music Guitar
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 5 2014 20:20:14
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Fear not! (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

No one I have seen posting on the Foro has suggested that we refrain from such debate.


Are you sure, Bill?

There were dismissing comments according to which controversial discussions would come about from pissing contests. And my experience with controversy-panicers ( if that´s a term) tells me that this view includes discussions that were at least partially held conclusively ( - by either both, or at least one party) like actually the very most of foro discussions.

Such down-playing of debates, by panicing viewers who can´t make out a difference between conclusive argumenting on the one hand or useless bossiness on the other, inherently delivers a request for refrain.
The message between the dismissing lines being: No dispute / Boogeyman!

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 5 2014 20:23:50
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

And Sr. Martins, your post was out of line. You may think you're being funny, but many women are going to be turned off, as am I.



There's nothing more fun and attractive than a forum with grumpy people whining and complaining about themselves all the time.

Judging by the usual active threads, this should be full of women by now.


Proceed.

_____________________________

"Ya no me conoce el sol, porque yo duermo de dia"
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 5 2014 20:28:01
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to Miguel de Maria

Miguel ... i understand that I am coming out argumentative , and i also understand that there is a possibility i may come out as the bad guy ...its not my intent ,,

the argumentative bit is just to make people think ....lots of complaints but no solutions ....so no direction ....

Although now i see some posts that have really had a lot of thought put into them ....


Other peoples opinions are just fine , whatever you feel is right , probably is , for you , right , ... .. if only we could put it all together in one general consensus ,,,,..

In the interst of avoiding conflict , and letting other people say what they need or feel is right , i will leave this thread now .... and visit from time to time ....

Im not a bad guy really ... a bit dim .. maybe ... but not so bad ......

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Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 5 2014 20:34:19
 
keith

 

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
 

[Deleted] 

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Aug. 15 2014 17:13:43
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 5 2014 21:01:03
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to El Kiko



_____________________________

"Ya no me conoce el sol, porque yo duermo de dia"
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 5 2014 21:05:27
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3462
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

And Sr. Martins, your post was out of line. You may think you're being funny, but many women are going to be turned off, as am I.


Agreed, Miguel. But as I stated in my post above in response to his post, the women would not be so much offended as they simply would not want to participate in a forum whose members appeared to have the mental age of 12-year old school boys engaging in "potty humor." For that matter, who would?

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 5 2014 21:11:53
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3462
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to keith

quote:

kalo piped in stating she is female and yet no one stopped and thought about asking her your view point or even acknowledged her.


On the other hand, Kalo knew what the topic of this thread was, and it seems to me if she had something to say she would have said it. While I am all for more female participation, it is up to participants (male and female) to participate in the discussion. As far as acknowledging her, there was little in her statement to acknowledge, at least nothing I saw pertaining to this discussion.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 5 2014 21:19:46
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to El Kiko

"Potty Humor" still is way better than Potty Topics with subsequent Potty Topics created to discuss the afforementioned topics.

You're trying to cover up the flies with turds.

_____________________________

"Ya no me conoce el sol, porque yo duermo de dia"
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 5 2014 21:33:11
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3462
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to Sr. Martins

quote:

"Potty Humor" still is way better than Potty Topics with subsequent Potty Topics created to discuss the afforementioned topics.
You're trying to cover up the flies with turds.


Thanks for making my case for me, Sr. Martins.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 5 2014 21:50:58
 
gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

want to have a conversation about women and the foro. Some questions that come to mind:

How do passive (non posting) female readers perceive the the Foro?
Perhaps we will hear from some of them?

How do active male posters think women perceive the Foro?

How much knowledge is being unheard because there is a dearth of female participants?

Does anyone care about these issues enough to make changes in the Foro culture to include more female participants?
Please discuss.


There are some rather crude commentators on this Foro, but as much as I abhor their style, I don't believe that they represent the true impediment to the impasse presented here. The real problem -to attracting or maintaining the presence of women- lies in the nature of the Forum; ForoFlamenco always was a men's club. Not a sophisticated one, really, but a men's club nonetheless.

It is a men's club where women are a welcomed exception but for whom no exceptions are made.

Even when I was an avid and eager contributor on the Foro, I always had to navigate cautiously through temperamental characters, sordid language, provocations and insults, but I enjoyed the part I came in to read or discuss. Ultimately, however, I too succumbed to the unpleasant climate a few had precipitated for all to suffer. I learned to only open and read posts written by those whom I respect, and plainly avoid the ones I learned to safely presume are ill conceived.

One does not need to be a woman to resent this place, any intelligent person does or will at some point. One simply needs to become selectively deaf (or blind) to go through the garbage many dump here, to find the treasures that a few still find time to contribute.

_____________________________

gj Michelob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 5 2014 23:10:34
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to estebanana

I know a woman who has built more guitars than most of the luthiers on this list. My wife Susan who retired from flamenco dancing and guitar about 20 years ago. She doesn't participate in the foro because she's too busy working on her garden, her piano playing and her guitar making. Perhaps this explains how we've managed to live together for over 40 years. I'm somewhat embarrassed to say that she is almost assuredly a better guitar maker than I am.

_____________________________

John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 5 2014 23:36:54
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to El Kiko

+1 to gj's post.

Also, anyone who's been out with a big group of 20/30 something year old
drunken female dance students knows they are not the epitome of restraint. lol

_____________________________

\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 5 2014 23:41:50
 
Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3026
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to El Kiko

As usual, it would be hard to imagine someone putting it better than you just did gj.

I've never really taken an extended break from the Foro, as many have, simply because I have the ability to compartmentalize what I love about this place and ignore/laugh off what I don't. I think that way of approaching the Foro would serve both male and female members well.

It's a pretty populous place full of different types of people, and I think Simon's more laid-back approach to moderation is actually ideal for allowing people to express themselves.

_____________________________

Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 6 2014 0:15:09
 
estebanana

Posts: 9396
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to akatune

quote:

I have definitely seen women insulted on this forum. It's never a direct attack against any female who joins a discussion. Rather, its crude comments and penis jokes that seem to arise in threads once a woman joins. You don't have to personally attack a woman to insult her. Just put her in a room with a bunch of men and see what happens when half of them start making dick jokes and ****ty comments.

Ive noticed that some of this vernacular is not present in most threads, but when women are present it manifests.

Also, threads about "Female" guitarist and comments about how hot they are are just juvenile and stupid. Dull. Trite. And downright rude. If I'm with my friends we'll talk about women 'till the sun sets. But not in a public forum. People must be made to feel welcome. I'm no feminist, but when comments offensive to gender are uttered in a public forum that is intended to be inclusive, it casts a dark shadow on our forum.

Although some of this behavior is subtle, how can you blame a woman for not joining the discussion when she notices these things. A woman needs to stick up for herself, but a crowd of men should also behave as gentleman.

And, finally, why are so many of these posts about something utterly different than the topic of this thread?


I copy to to say I agree completely with these ideas.

There seems to be a concept here that if you don't like some thing don't read it, well some things should not be posted and a lot of misogyny goes under the radar.

My solution to that, the thing that I propose, is to consider a woman moderator or two to determine what constitutes speech or attitudes that constitute subtle intimidation to women posters. I propose turing the tables on the male oriented speech that describes the relationship between guitars and general flamenco to see what happens.

I bet $50.00 bucks more women would participate and make the Foro richer in knowledge and have less testosterone fueled threads.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 6 2014 0:28:07
 
estebanana

Posts: 9396
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to Sr. Martins

quote:

quote:

And Sr. Martins, your post was out of line. You may think you're being funny, but many women are going to be turned off, as am I.



There's nothing more fun and attractive than a forum with grumpy people whining and complaining about themselves all the time.

Judging by the usual active threads, this should be full of women by now.


Proceed.


This is a prefect example of the kind of misogyny I'm referring to.

This puts women down. Can't you see that? This subtle insulting happens here ALL the time.

Why would women want to share flamenco knowledge in a place where they are not valued?

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 6 2014 0:34:50
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to El Kiko

Well thing is guys, this forum can be the place you want it to be, you just have to take responsibility to make it so. Regular contributors need to call out unacceptable behavior, as this thread proves. Bringing interesting content and attractive discussions is the other thing. Speaking for myself, getting to hang out with virtuosos like Grisha and Ricardo and Todd was/is another big bonus (so how do we get those guys to come around?)

_____________________________

Connect with me on Facebook, all the cool kids are doing it.
https://www.facebook.com/migueldemariaZ


Arizona Wedding Music Guitar
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 6 2014 0:50:54
 
estebanana

Posts: 9396
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to gj Michelob

quote:


There are some rather crude commentators on this Foro, but as much as I abhor their style, I don't believe that they represent the true impediment to the impasse presented here. The real problem -to attracting or maintaining the presence of women- lies in the nature of the Forum; ForoFlamenco always was a men's club. Not a sophisticated one, really, but a men's club nonetheless.

It is a men's club where women are a welcomed exception but for whom no exceptions are made.

Even when I was an avid and eager contributor on the Foro, I always had to navigate cautiously through temperamental characters, sordid language, provocations and insults, but I enjoyed the part I came in to read or discuss. Ultimately, however, I too succumbed to the unpleasant climate a few had precipitated for all to suffer. I learned to only open and read posts written by those whom I respect, and plainly avoid the ones I learned to safely presume are ill conceived.

One does not need to be a woman to resent this place, any intelligent person does or will at some point. One simply needs to become selectively deaf (or blind) to go through the garbage many dump here, to find the treasures that a few still find time to contribute.


First off, I'd like to say thank you to Cristina and Kalo for participating. I'm not not worried about Kalo nor do I feel I have to ask her opinion, she is quite outspoken and says what she wants to say.

Getting onto your excellent post Giacomo,

I understand what you mean by finding treasures in the junkyard and realize we all have to tune out some of the noise. What I am talking about is a toxic kind of garbage that has no place even in this funky tree house of guitar lovers.

Some garbage is just like mouldering old newspapers, the poster says the same things over and over through the years. You pick your way past this old worn out verbiage and move on to find a little gem.

Some other garbage is highly toxic. How can you tell it's toxicity level? Well if it keeps half the population out of the junkyard then that is pretty toxic. I'm talking directly about misogynist speech that degrades or devalues women. It does not have to be overt speech and it can even arise in the form of coded off base jokes.

So be it, we have established that the Foro by its lineage somewhat of a Boys Club. Is it fair to ourselves as regular members and to prospective women participants to keep it so clubby? Is it fair to horde all the little gems we find after picking through yesterdays papers?

What about new and fabulous gems we might find in this junkyard if it were more inviting to women with good flamenco knowledge. They could also drop a few gems here or there?

Are we not receiving all the goods we can have in the flamenco junkyard by not making an effort to include more women?

Those are my questions, if you don't mind my simplistic Socratic tack.

P.S.

I agree there are some very eloquent and enjoyable participants here. I count you among them Giacomo, and I hope we all work toward encouraging more eloquent postings.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 6 2014 1:21:19
 
krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to gj Michelob

quote:

One does not need to be a woman to resent this place, any intelligent person does or will at some point. One simply needs to become selectively deaf (or blind) to go through the garbage many dump here, to find the treasures that a few still find time to contribute.


That just about sums it up. I would simply add that the name 'Flamenco Foro' is quite misleading. A new member might think they are joining a flamenco forum but , in fact, its a forum for guitar players who are free to discuss any topic they please.

_____________________________

Kevin Richards

http://www.facebook.com/#!/kevin.richards.1048554
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 6 2014 8:24:22
 
gerundino63

Posts: 1749
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to El Kiko

When grown man act like little schoolboys, women start to mind their own things again....

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 6 2014 8:44:54
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

This is a prefect example of the kind of misogyny I'm referring to.

This puts women down. Can't you see that? This subtle insulting happens here ALL the time.

Why would women want to share flamenco knowledge in a place where they are not valued?



I don't think you understood my intention.

_____________________________

"Ya no me conoce el sol, porque yo duermo de dia"
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 6 2014 12:22:51
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