Andaman Islands Padauk

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Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

Andaman Islands Padauk

Hey all,
I just made a blog post about this cool plank of wood I just got as a gift. More updates to follow as I get it sawn and start building with it.

http://andyculpepperguitars.wordpress.com/2014/07/31/andaman-islands-padauk-part-i/

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http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 31 2014 22:57:08

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Andaman Islands Padauk (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

I thought that wood was red, not like that... sort of painted on the outside.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 1 2014 0:30:55

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Andaman Islands Padauk (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Yep it's red... you can see in the pics I just planed down one section. The outside is totally oxidized from being exposed to air for 10 years.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 1 2014 1:06:10

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Andaman Islands Padauk (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

That means the oxidation is the whiter part?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 1 2014 1:16:42

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Andaman Islands Padauk (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Yep. Normally under a finish I've seen it turn dark reddish brown but I guess being fully oxidized makes it go lighter, or maybe it's just this variety.

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Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 1 2014 1:51:33

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Andaman Islands Padauk (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Sun bleached maybe? I've seen some pretty drastic bleaching on walnut.
I really like the natural red it has, I wouldn't add any color to it if possible....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 1 2014 1:56:11

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Andaman Islands Padauk (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

That's possible. The guy said he had it in his garage though. Thankfully it's nice and straight with no warping/twisting and no splitting in areas that will be a problem. Easily $500 worth of wood!

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Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 1 2014 2:01:08

tijeretamiel

Posts: 441
Joined: Jan. 6 2012

RE: Andaman Islands Padauk (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Andaman Padauk is not red like African Padauk.

Andaman is rare as it gets and now there are no trees large for timber on the Islands after the Tsunami that hit South-East Asia a few years ago.

A luthier of steel strings I exchanged a few emails had a few Andaman Paduak sets he sawed from a 100 year old billet said Andaman Rosewood in contrast to African Rosewood is akin to Brazilian in Indian Rosewood.

Finding a billet of Andaman might not produce as much a of a cash cow as BRW but IMO it's as precious as it gets.

Stephen Eden who used to post here had a few sets of in stock, if he reads it then it'd be find out his thoughts.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 1 2014 7:43:04

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Andaman Islands Padauk (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

I made my second guitar from Andaman paduk and it sounded (and still does) very much like an Indian rosewood negra. Nice wood to work with. I finished it with marine varnish and it retained its reddish color on the outside.

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Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 2 2014 2:23:20

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Andaman Islands Padauk (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Its strange that this should come up , a while ago i was reading about people examining and making instruments out of various old woods , and some of them came to the conclusion that old wood was not as good as what people previously thought for making instruments , as with time the minuscule chambers left within the wood itself, had with time , shrank and the wood therefore became less 'sonorous'
as oppose to new wood , dried and cured properly would have a better tone ...

of course this would depend on , the type of wood ... the storage it was in and how it was treated and cut ..
some things i know of were made out of logs , that were found on the bottom of a lake , low oxygen environment , for 100 years more or less , and looked good , but weren't as spectacular as the expectations were..

Of course all this is so subjective that it probably means nothing at all , and a really good good Luther ...like , lets say Andy Culpepper, or maybe Ethan Deutsch ...who are obviously the best in the world , can make an instrument out of plywood and it will be as fine as any other ....

can i have a free guitar now ???

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 2 2014 9:01:30

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Andaman Islands Padauk (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

tijereta, very interesting. So this may be an even more valuable gift than I thought.

Ethan, good to know, thanks. Interestingly the scientific name for Andaman is Pterocarpus dalbergioides (seeming to link it more to rosewoods) while African is Pterocarpus soyauxii.

Kiko, if you have a link to that study I'd be very interested. 10 years isn't actually very old as wood goes. I hope the sweet and sonorous timbric colors are still strong!

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http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 2 2014 12:18:54

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Andaman Islands Padauk (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

not so much of a link more of a darting about the internet to different places .. mainly to do with violins though as they seem more preoccupied with wood than anything else ...

the Stradivarius wood wasnt apparently that old ....

I think after all the general opinion is that it is the genius of the builder ( thats you) that makes the biggest difference of all to the sound of the instrument , so long as the wood is about 5 years old or more then there is very little difference ...except in price ..
another point is that it has been found that some suppliers may say the wood is 10 years but its only 2 or 3 so the luthier concludes that 10 year old wood is not so good and buys older wood , ...I know that is a dodgey point but never the less ..

If you want to get into this area you will be reading for ages as there is a lot of stuff from luthiers , and universities and all walks of life that put there bits in ...
however here is one , not so long link ..

http://www.edroman.com/customshop/wood/oldwood.htm

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 2 2014 13:51:53

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Andaman Islands Padauk (in reply to El Kiko)

oh i forgot to mention ,Under the waters of Lake Huron, University of Michigan researchers have found wood that is 8,900 years old...now make a guitar out of that ,....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 2 2014 13:55:27

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Andaman Islands Padauk (in reply to El Kiko)

Kiko--
I sincerely believe that good-sounding guitars could be made from plywood back and sides, with a good spruce soundboard (in fact, I think that's basically what Greg Smallman does for backs, and Ramirez and many others have used multi-layer sides)--just as many unpopular solid woods could be used for the back and sides to make good-sounding guitars. But it doesn't appeal to me. And remember, Torres built a nice-sounding guitar using papier mache for the back and sides.

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Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 2 2014 16:57:16

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Andaman Islands Padauk (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

or cheerios .....:)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 2 2014 17:41:52

tijeretamiel

Posts: 441
Joined: Jan. 6 2012

RE: Andaman Islands Padauk (in reply to El Kiko)

RE Sinker Wood for guitars/wood that has been recovered from a sunken river after lying at the bottom for 100 years or so, on acoustic guitar forums it's a debate that crops up from time to time with some believing it can be a marketing issue with some guitars built with Sinker Redwood being dead, but some others have said Sinker Mahogany used for back and sides have produced some wonderful guitars.

Andy, I think it's a valuable gift for sure. I think the rare nature of Andaman Padauk probably makes it somewhat unknown to most guitar fans; even in acoustic guitar circles where buyers are lot more unconventional in the choices of tonewoods for back and sides, it's near enough unknown as very few sets have found their way into luthier hands. I think you'll make some great guitars with it.

Ethan - just out of curiousity what is your favourite tonewood choice for negras? I really liked the sound of the Pau Ferro you built not too long ago. I have a Pau Ferro negra myself and I love it's sound. I think it's a really underrated tonewood for guitars. I agree there are a lot of unpopular woods that would make/make great guitars, including 'sustainable' ones.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 2 2014 18:12:45

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Andaman Islands Padauk (in reply to tijeretamiel)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tijeretamiel

RE Sinker Wood for guitars/wood that has been recovered from a sunken river after lying at the bottom for 100 years or so, on acoustic guitar forums it's a debate that crops up from time to time with some believing it can be a marketing issue with some guitars built with Sinker Redwood being dead, but some others have said Sinker Mahogany used for back and sides have produced some wonderful guitars.

FWIW, on the searches I made on the topic it seemed as if there was an actually rather strong opinion on the matter. Consisting of a number of list members of guitar and bass forums who show to be sceptical against sinker woods, who however nearly throughout are not having experience with the material either. And the other fraction being those who are having empirics, -in most cases having A/Bed instruments of common sound woods with same brand´s and models editions made of sinker wood - and by a very high percentage are praising certain properties they find with the retrieved material. Often times mentioning how they had been dismissing the idea beforehand.
-

I must say the suggestion of densed sinker wood being less responsive really sounds like plausible to the imaginative following. But you might want to visit Laurie Williams website and listen to his guitars of ancient kauri, then come back and tell us what you heard.

Andy has made one too. Anyone actually curious can listen to his takes and tell whether there either was anything less pristine or anyhow appearing inert with the sound, or eventually not.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 2 2014 19:19:32

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Andaman Islands Padauk (in reply to tijeretamiel)

quote:

used for back and sides have produced some wonderful guitars.

yes you brought another dimension into the mix now .. i would think that back and sides from sinker wood is great but the big part of the tonewood is the top .. this is like the plywood issue of back and sides and a spruce top ...good sound , probably if it was done right ..
and by the way this topic rolls into drum shells and percussion as well

also ....although this is where the topic will be lost ..the studies done by many universities on wood for instruments is enormous ..including
Wave propagation in wood
Acoustics used to determine the elastic properties of wood..
Factors affecting stress wave-transit time in timber .
Impact of branches on the wood structure
Acoustic velocity measurements with WoodSpec
Acoustic measurements under various conditions
Areas of the bolts examined by the first, second, third, fourth and fifth
harmonic

and the list just goes on and on and the data is collected ... read them all if you need ..however at the end of the day it comes down to the makers gut feeling and your own ears .. if you like it its good ...

However , i seem to have hijacked Andys Andaman Islands Padauk thread on the foro . . and his wood is more of a back and sides thing . so it will be important how it is cut and finished to get the best effect ...
I think it will be a really nice guitar , not sure how flamenco it will sound , this might depend on the rest of it ...
however . keep your blog going and post here , and post a sound clip when its done ... how long do you estimate for the finished product ...?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 2 2014 21:36:06

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Andaman Islands Padauk (in reply to tijeretamiel)

quote:

Ethan - just out of curiousity what is your favourite tonewood choice for negras? I really liked the sound of the Pau Ferro you built not too long ago.

Tijeretamiel--
A customer and I compared two guitars I made, one with Brazilian rosewood back and sides and the other with Pau Ferro back and sides. We could detect no difference in sound or responsiveness. I think the Brazilian rosewood is perhaps prettier--or maybe it's just the mystique (How to be objective about it?). However, the Pau Ferro is much easier to finish, as the BR has bigger pores and bleeds more. So actually the Pau Ferro is my favorite for that "velvety" sound (as Ruphus put it once). On the other hand (are there three hands?), Indian rosewood gives a sound that is more closely related, somehow (raspiness?), to a blanca's sound, perhaps more flamenco in some sense. It is also hard to finish, perhaps hardest, with the biggest pores. So it depends what kind of sound you want. I think everyone should have at least one of each.

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Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 2 2014 21:49:28

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Andaman Islands Padauk (in reply to El Kiko)

I indeed made a guitar out of 35,000 - 40,000 year old Ancient Kauri. I think it came out great. In fact I promise to get new pics and video of that guitar up soon

quote:

However , i seem to have hijacked Andys Andaman Islands Padauk thread on the foro . . and his wood is more of a back and sides thing . so it will be important how it is cut and finished to get the best effect ...
I think it will be a really nice guitar , not sure how flamenco it will sound , this might depend on the rest of it ...
however . keep your blog going and post here , and post a sound clip when its done ... how long do you estimate for the finished product ...?

I should have a guitar made out of this stuff done within a few months. I'm going to get it sawn and let it acclimate to my shop a bit then build. Padauk can make very flamenco sounding guitars. Looking back this was actually one of my favorite guitars I ever made, from a couple years ago.

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http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 2 2014 22:32:27

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Andaman Islands Padauk (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

yes .. i know of people that have made guitars out of 35,000 year old Kauri, but i also heard that the same wood had to be injected in the cracks to make it stable
so the more you inject , the more you change the acoustic properties of the wood , if they exist ,, so whats the point..
I think that idea was from Joh Lang in NZ..

Personally , which means nothing , i prefer he experimentation of what we have and what can be done .. and sound is everything .. and then make it pretty .. like what i hear of Glenn Canin , who really was dissapointed with some Spanish luthier guitars and so made his own to suit ... in a way ....the floating bridge etc...

progress is made ...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 3 2014 1:43:43

C. Vega

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Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Andaman Islands Padauk (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

There is no magic wood.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 3 2014 2:18:25

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Andaman Islands Padauk (in reply to C. Vega)

Yes there is , its in Switzerland, people go climbing there.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 3 2014 9:36:56

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Andaman Islands Padauk (in reply to C. Vega)

quote:

ORIGINAL: C. Vega

There is no magic wood.

Maybe not, and I don´t think this to be the aimed statement here.
However, regarding sinker woods it can make you wonder at times.

It´s been only weeks ago when I suggested once again the making of a paper maché guitar. That is because of a specimen once built and demonstrated by a classical player, and whichs beautifully dry sound impressed me a lot / I imagine as perfect for a blanca.

On the other ( Ethan´s third ;O) hand there seems a certain sound quality to sinker woods which is perceived in basically similar ways by folks who describe respective guitars and by me when listening to recordings with AK guitars.

If you search for comments in guitar and bass forums you will see folks describing what basically renders down to an impression of greater complexity in sound and before all of depth / substance in tone. Which again is exactly what I noticed when listening to recordings of Williams´ guitars first time and long before reading of others´ impressions.

Further, in view of kauri, it appears as if this species of connifer was specially suited as tone wood from the get go. Cuts from contemporary material seem to turn out very well as guitar tops.

Still, provided that all these impressions were bound to other factors or just imaginary, what remains is that at least there seem no performing downsides to sinker woods and that you will see no disadvantage while enjoying the historical or even prehistorical thrill with the material.

I at least have always been thrilled by objects as `wittnes of time´, and thus find it entertaining to look at a top notch instrument which on top has been built of a tree that was standing upright up to tens of thousands of years ago.

... And when it looks as if it had even captured some ancient scene in its grain, who´s to complain about the vision.

Ruphus

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 3 2014 12:06:53

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Andaman Islands Padauk (in reply to Ruphus)

Ruphus--

Whose guitar-making shop is pictured here with the guitar with the interesting back?

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Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 3 2014 18:17:33

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Andaman Islands Padauk (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

tijeretamiel - You may have your Stephens mixed up as I have never had a set of Andaman Paduak.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 3 2014 19:52:26

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Andaman Islands Padauk (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

That back looks like a dude with his hands tied up receiving a wind job from a lady with a pony tail.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 3 2014 20:54:58

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Andaman Islands Padauk (in reply to Sr. Martins)

I'm afraid I think you are correct.

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Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 3 2014 21:05:33

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Andaman Islands Padauk (in reply to Sr. Martins)

O Snr Martins, you have too much imagination ....unfortunately i see that now as well,
..
Does this make the guitar more expensive now ??l

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 3 2014 21:17:18