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El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Question about compas (in reply to Leñador

beer makes me go non - rhotic ...govna...with no R ...
So to put the 2 things togetha we can have Alegias with accent on Thee and fou' played on the guitah' ..ermm

..oh thats difficult now to get all them non 'R' sounds out .....brain not responding ..wait or reboot in 30 seconds...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 23 2014 23:32:54
 
Don Dionisio

 

Posts: 360
Joined: Feb. 16 2011
From: Durham, NC

RE: Question about compas (in reply to Andy Culpepper

Nice example, Andy.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 24 2014 13:14:03
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3306
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Question about compas (in reply to Ramon Amira

quote:

You cannot start an Alegrias falseta on six.


what about cante? I have heard lots of singers come in on 6 or 7..... I have been watching the Rito Y Geografía del Cante Flamenco dvd's and to begin with I would rewind and count to check, but it has happened so many times I have stopped noticing....

in PDL track Barrio La Viña there are, I think, at least 3 examples of media compás. After the first media compás he must then be starting the following falsetas on 7. At least one of the falsetas starts on the off beat after 12/6

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 24 2014 14:11:19
 
Morante

 

Posts: 1629
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RE: Question about compas (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

what about cante?


If this were a foro flamenco, instead of a foro flamenco guitar, this thread would not even exist
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 24 2014 15:23:11
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3306
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Question about compas (in reply to ZaidRockso

quote:

I sometimes see someone starting Alegrias at 12, sometimes at 1 . Same with Bulerias.


it's also really common to start Alegrías falsetas on the half beat between 1 and 2, and to start Bulerías falsetas on beat 11, the half beat between 10 and 11, beat 10, or the half beat between 9 and 10....

....but the basic ones start on 1 for Alegrías and 1 or 12 for Bulerías.


also for bulerías compás check out these two resources;





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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 24 2014 15:54:42
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3306
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Question about compas (in reply to Morante

quote:

quote:

what about cante?

If this were a foro flamenco, instead of a foro flamenco guitar, this thread would not even exist


I suppose really what it is is a "foro flamenco extranjero" - most of the members and contributors are not Spanish, including the few who are in Spain.

Outside of Spain most of our first contact with "flamenco" is the guitar, and that remains the focus of interest.... what can you do about that?
For a start there is so little cante to be heard live in the countries where most of us live.

But anyone who wants to get serious about the guitar will listen to cante sooner or later, if only to hear the guitar playing compás.

(hint for newcomers to flamenco guitar, accompanying cante is where you can get to hear the guitar playing this mysterious compás everyone keeps talking about - but be warned, you might actually start to like it eventually )

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 24 2014 16:05:25
 
Leñador

Posts: 5234
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Question about compas (in reply to El Kiko

If we were all Sapnish we'd be too lazy to post.
I kidding I kidding......
There's tons more dancers in LA then guitarists, wonder why dancers don't have a thriving forum....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 24 2014 16:35:00
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3072
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Question about compas (in reply to Leñador

quote:

If we were all Sapnish we'd be too lazy to post.
I kidding I kidding......
There's tons more dancers in LA then guitarists, wonder why dancers don't have a thriving forum....


This side of Europe is too hot right now, one doesn't even play guitar... just thinks about doing it.

Dancers are too busy shopping for dresses and shoes. Some should buy bras that actually fit and hold the stuff togheter.. sometimes I even forget there's a guitar in there.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 24 2014 17:16:06
 
Ramon Amira

 

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Question about compas (in reply to Andy Culpepper

quote:

Hey it feels good to have a good old-fashioned compás debate here no the Foro!

Here is what I meant by starting an Alegrias falseta on 6.

I play 2 compases of strumming, ending on 10. Beats 11-5 are silent and the falseta begins on 6 with the first G# chord landing on 10. Then come 4 more cycles of 12 in the falseta.
The half compas of silence or tapado is not something I would use every day, but it certainly CAN be done for effect if desired. Those kinds of things can be useful for accompanying baile too.


Hi Andy -

Thanks for the example. I would appreciate it if you would do just one very simple thing. I don't want to do it myself, because I might get it wrong. Forgetting the strumming that precedes the falseta proper, - that's not part of the falseta - would you please just add up the total number of beats in the falseta starting on Six. That's all - just tell me how many beats there are altogether in the falseta alone.

Thanks -
Ramon

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 24 2014 17:43:34
 
athrane77

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 24 2014 18:45:54
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3072
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RE: Question about compas (in reply to athrane77

quote:

"you can't start an alegrías falseta on 6"


Of course you can't. Silence is music too.

I play all the time, even in my sleep.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 24 2014 18:54:04
 
Leñador

Posts: 5234
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Question about compas (in reply to El Kiko

quote:

After thinking about what he's saying, I know he's right, with the "you can't start an alegrías falseta on 6"

I'm not gettin it.......
I hate riddles!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 24 2014 19:07:20
 
orsonw

Posts: 1462
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Question about compas (in reply to Ramon Amira

quote:

Ramon "please just add up the total number of beats in the falseta starting on Six. That's all - just tell me how many beats there are altogether in the falseta alone."


quote:

Andy "the falseta begins on 6 with the first G# chord landing on 10. Then come 4 more cycles of 12 in the falseta."


Is this what you mean Ramon?

6,7,8,9,10,11,12
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10

Total 53

Andy is playing 12 beat compas in his upload but for an example of medio compas in Alegrias listen to Paco de Lucia's Barrio la viña, at around 1.40 (the first picado run) he adds an extra six beats.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 24 2014 19:16:43
 
Ramon Amira

 

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Question about compas (in reply to athrane77

quote:

Ok, Ramon tiene razón.
After thinking about what he's saying, I know he's right, with the "you can't start an alegrías falseta on 6"
It's a bit tricky, think about it again


jof - Thank you, you are a gentleman. I will give an explanation later this evening why it can't be done.

Ramon

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 24 2014 20:52:22
 
Ramon Amira

 

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Question about compas (in reply to orsonw

quote:

quote:

Ramon "please just add up the total number of beats in the falseta starting on Six. That's all - just tell me how many beats there are altogether in the falseta alone."

quote:

Andy "the falseta begins on 6 with the first G# chord landing on 10. Then come 4 more cycles of 12 in the falseta."

Is this what you mean Ramon?

6,7,8,9,10,11,12
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10

Total 53


Thank you Orson. So this Alegrias falseta has a total of 53 beats. Remember, Andy agreed we are talking about playing in compas - you have to begin on Six and stay in compas. An Alegrias falseta has twelve beats - or a multiple of twelve - twenty four, thirty six, etc. No matter how you slice it up, fifty three beats is out of compas. So that example doesn't work.

Ramon

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 24 2014 23:26:30
 
Andy Culpepper

Posts: 2923
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Question about compas (in reply to Ramon Amira

quote:

Thank you Orson. So this Alegrias falseta has a total of 53 beats. Remember, Andy agreed we are talking about playing in compas - you have to begin on Six and stay in compas. An Alegrias falseta has twelve beats - or a multiple of twelve - twenty four, thirty six, etc. No matter how you slice it up, fifty three beats is out of compas. So that example doesn't work.

Ramon


Lol. Going to lose my patience soon. Please turn your brain on Ramon and look at the actual numbers that Orson outlined. Also, listen to it. If you can't tell that it IS in compás I'm not sure I can help you.

My upload is entirely in cycles of 12, also known as Alegrias compás. There are simply 6 beats (11,12,1,2,3,4,5) that are played with tapado e.g. no actual notes before I start the falseta on 6.

I played a total of 8 compases of Alegrias, or 96 beats. Orson was simply removing beats that weren't directly part of the falseta.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 24 2014 23:50:43
 
Leñador

Posts: 5234
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Question about compas (in reply to El Kiko

quote:

An Alegrias falseta has twelve beats

That's where we have the problem, the rest of us believe this is a false statement.

Imagine if a dancer was dancing solo keeping the compas, you could start your falseta at THEIR 6 no problem.

Andys falseta has 53 beats, the other 43 beats can be "rhythm playing" to keep compas, that could be tapao, resting, strumming, a dancers feet, doesn't matter…..

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 25 2014 0:14:29
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12680
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Question about compas (in reply to Ramon Amira

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ramon Amira

quote:

quote:

Ramon "please just add up the total number of beats in the falseta starting on Six. That's all - just tell me how many beats there are altogether in the falseta alone."

quote:

Andy "the falseta begins on 6 with the first G# chord landing on 10. Then come 4 more cycles of 12 in the falseta."

Is this what you mean Ramon?

6,7,8,9,10,11,12
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10

Total 53


Thank you Orson. So this Alegrias falseta has a total of 53 beats. Remember, Andy agreed we are talking about playing in compas - you have to begin on Six and stay in compas. An Alegrias falseta has twelve beats - or a multiple of twelve - twenty four, thirty six, etc. No matter how you slice it up, fifty three beats is out of compas. So that example doesn't work.

Ramon


your reasoning and persistence is, frankly, insulting. And I am not even one addressed on this issue, but reading through...jeeezus man.


Anyway, back on topic, here is another example of coming in off the 6'th beat, and I repeat it in the middle too.

http://youtu.be/YtZPNzDvw_0

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 25 2014 2:52:36
 
Blondie#2

 

Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 14 2010
 

RE: Question about compas (in reply to Leñador

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leñador

quote:

An Alegrias falseta has twelve beats

That's where we have the problem, the rest of us believe this is a false statement.

Imagine if a dancer was dancing solo keeping the compas, you could start your falseta at THEIR 6 no problem.

Andys falseta has 53 beats, the other 43 beats can be "rhythm playing" to keep compas, that could be tapao, resting, strumming, a dancers feet, doesn't matter…..


Absolutely. I was wondering where Ramon was going with all this , insisting that people go to the trouble of composing/recording/uploading falsetas, then counting them out etc, all because he believes that an Alegrias falseta should be made up up multiples of exactly 12 beats, which are counted from the first note of the falseta (why not just say that?)

Ramon you are entirely wrong I'm afraid. The compas is *there* whether the guitarist is actually playing something at any given time or not. The guitarist is *in* compas if he is at the right place when he does play something, given that there is a structure. But you seem to think that the compas starts when the guitarist plays the first note. Big misunderstanding of compas.

I'd be interested to hear if Ramon thinks this logic applies to other palos - Solea or buleria for example. Should falsetas always be exactly divisible by 12 beats, counted from the beat the guitar plays the first note of the falseta, or is this something he feels only applies to Alegrias?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 25 2014 8:44:16
 
koenie17

Posts: 438
Joined: Feb. 25 2011
From: España

RE: Question about compas (in reply to Ramon Amira

quote:

An Alegrias falseta has twelve beats - or a multiple of twelve - twenty four, thirty six, etc. No matter how you slice it up, fifty three beats is out of compas.


You clearly have a wrong idea about compas, It´s not about the numbers or counting... It´s about the groove!! You can enter anytime as long as it is in compas.

A falseta doesn´t need to have twelve beats!! the timing in wich you count is 12!!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 25 2014 10:04:52
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3306
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Question about compas (in reply to Ramon Amira

quote:

An Alegrias falseta has twelve beats
really?

I already posted:
quote:

in PDL track Barrio La Viña there are, I think, at least 3 examples of media compás.
After the first media compás he must then be starting the following falsetas on 7.
At least one of the falsetas starts on the off beat after 12/6


Orson posted:
quote:

for an example of medio compas in Alegrias listen to Paco de Lucia's Barrio la viña, at around 1.40 (the first picado run) he adds an extra six beats.


and meanwhile I played through it again and checked, this is what I came up with;

PDL – Barrio La Viña

opens with 3 phrases of 6 beats (i.e. 3 media compases), followed by 2 phrases of 12 beats each (i.e. 2 full compases), which must both begin on beat 7 and end on 6.

The tremolo falseta then begins on beat 7 and also contains another media compás, so the following falseta starts on 1.

Just before the first picado run there is a media compás, so the picado and the typical traditional remate/cierre that follows it both start on 7, as do all the falsetas that follow.

After the picado falseta and the pulgar/ligado falseta that follows it there is a second picado run. It is similar to the first but it finishes on the 4th fret of the 6th string instead of the open 6th string.

There is another media compás in the section after that run that puts the 2 compases of rasgueado that follow back to starting on 1 again to the end

These Alegrías falsetas certainly don't all have 12 beats or come in multiples of 12 beats. And the legitimacy of falsetas having multiples of 6 beats, as well as 12 comes from the Cante, as I also said earlier.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 25 2014 10:19:08
 
Ramon Amira

 

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Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Question about compas (in reply to Andy Culpepper

Orson said the falseta had 53 beats. I didn't count it - I took Orson's count of 53 beats. Anyway, you can add in a media compas or whatever you want, but an Alegrias falseta with 53 beats is out of compas no matter what you do. In any case it doesn't matter - even if it's in compas it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to my original point. What I have said is that you can't begin an Alegrias falseta on beat Six. I stand on that statement.

Here is why. If you say you are starting on beat Six, then you have established that there are beats One, Two, Three, Four, and Five -five beats preceding that beat in the compas. These five beats of silence or "rests" are therefore part of the falseta. A silence or rest is an integral part of a falseta. There are hundreds of falsetas that are comprised of a combination of rests and notes.

There is no end of falsetas that include rests, sometimes at the beginning, sometimes at the end, and sometimes any place in the middle. Obviously these rests are part of the falseta no matter where in the falseta they occur, including the beginning, and are included in the compas count.

So by definition, beats One, Two, Three, Four, and Five, are part of the falseta. So the falseta is starting on the first beat, not the sixth. The mistake you have made is this - the NOTES start on Six, but the falseta starts on One.

That is what St. Martins meant above when he said "Of course you can't start an Alegrias falseta on Six - silence is music too."

And just in case you would like to try saying that those first five beats don't count, it doesn't do you any good. First of all, they have to count - you yourself have counted them in by saying you are starting on Six. But even if they didn't count, then what you have called Beat Six is no longer Beat Six, but then becomes Beat One. It can only be Beat Six if it has those five beats preceding it. So either way the falseta begins on Beat One, not on Beat Six.

Ramon

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 25 2014 20:46:52
 
Sr. Martins

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RE: Question about compas (in reply to Ramon Amira

quote:

That is what St. Martins meant above when he said "Of course you can't start an Alegrias falseta on Six - silence is music too."


Right now Iam unsure if Iam being part of a major trolling or wtf just happened here.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 25 2014 21:03:43
 
Ramon Amira

 

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Question about compas (in reply to Sr. Martins

quote:

quote:

That is what St. Martins meant above when he said "Of course you can't start an Alegrias falseta on Six - silence is music too."

Right now Iam unsure if Iam being part of a major trolling or wtf just happened here.




Hi - I just quoted what you said - "Of course you can't start an Alegrias falseta on Six"

Ramon

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 25 2014 21:14:20
 
Andy Culpepper

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Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Question about compas (in reply to Ramon Amira

quote:

Orson said the falseta had 53 beats. I didn't count it - I took Orson's count of 53 beats. Anyway, you can add in a media compas or whatever you want, but an Alegrias falseta with 53 beats is out of compas no matter what you do. In any case it doesn't matter - even if it's in compas it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to my original point. What I have said is that you can't begin an Alegrias falseta on beat Six. I stand on that statement.

Here is why. If you say you are starting on beat Six, then you have established that there are beats One, Two, Three, Four, and Five -five beats preceding that beat in the compas. These five beats of silence or "rests" are therefore part of the falseta. A silence or rest is an integral part of a falseta. There are hundreds of falsetas that are comprised of a combination of rests and notes.

There is no end of falsetas that include rests, sometimes at the beginning, sometimes at the end, and sometimes any place in the middle. Obviously these rests are part of the falseta no matter where in the falseta they occur, including the beginning, and are included in the compas count.

So by definition, beats One, Two, Three, Four, and Five, are part of the falseta. So the falseta is starting on the first beat, not the sixth. The mistake you have made is this - the NOTES start on Six, but the falseta starts on One.

That is what St. Martins meant above when he said "Of course you can't start an Alegrias falseta on Six - silence is music too."

And just in case you would like to try saying that those first five beats don't count, it doesn't do you any good. First of all, they have to count - you yourself have counted them in by saying you are starting on Six. But even if they didn't count, then what you have called Beat Six is no longer Beat Six, but then becomes Beat One. It can only be Beat Six if it has those five beats preceding it. So either way the falseta begins on Beat One, not on Beat Six.

Ramon




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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 25 2014 21:34:25
 
Andy Culpepper

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Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Question about compas (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Anyway, back on topic, here is another example of coming in off the 6'th beat, and I repeat it in the middle too.

http://youtu.be/YtZPNzDvw_0


Nice example!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 25 2014 21:50:02
 
Ramon Amira

 

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From: New York City

RE: Question about compas (in reply to Andy Culpepper

Yes - I agree - you don't have any idea what you're doing. Instead of putting up silly signs, why don't you try responding to what I said. Could it be you don't have an answer. If you do, let us all hear it.

Ramon

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 25 2014 21:54:43
 
Leñador

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Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Question about compas (in reply to El Kiko

Silence IS music but it's NOT a falseta. Tapao is not a falseta, footwork is not a falseta etc etc. You are wrong hombre.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 25 2014 22:35:08
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3072
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Question about compas (in reply to El Kiko

You guys are nitpicking in a way that even I find hilarious. When I first saw this thread I thought you were joking.

You are both right, it's just a matter of point of view, analysis...


I think we should all agree where a song begins (it's first bar) even if we're not playing our instrument right from the start.

In fact I guess everyone here has this very clear on their minds, this just keeps going on because it's foroflamenco.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 25 2014 22:56:26
 
Morante

 

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RE: Question about compas (in reply to Sr. Martins

Ever thought it strange that the compás of seguiriyas is the same as the compás of guajiras?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 25 2014 23:09:24
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