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Can someone explain why these two guitars sound SO different?   You are logged in as Guest
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wiking

 

Posts: 63
Joined: Apr. 11 2014
 

Can someone explain why these two gu... 

Here are two examples of playing on similarly constructed guitars (both using Engelmann spruce, cypress back and sides, all solid)

1:

2:

Obviously the recording quality of both is different, and of course, no two guitars are going to sound the same, especially at the price points of these (1 is a higher end custom luthier job by someone I'm unfamiliar with but is probably on this forum, and 2 is a 1000 dollar Navarro student blanca) but my GOD, the Navarro almost sounds as dull as a classical. I thought a blanca should almost guarantee some level of raspy dryness, which is perfectly demonstrated by guitar 1. I actually have a Navarro blanca student model on the way and now I'm concerned that it's going to sound nothing like a true flamenco. I hope I'm very wrong.

That said, I'm obviously quite new to all of this... Is the key to the aggressive, raspy tone that I love so much in the technique moreso than the instrument? I feel the guy playing the Navarro is obviously a little less experienced and isn't "digging in" with the nails as much as the first guy playing the solea. Is this really a case of "This is what a $3000 dollar guitar sounds like compared to a $1000 guitar" or are there too many other factors in play here to warrant comparison? I'm just a big fan of the clicky, dry tone of a traditional blanca and I hope that's what I end up with when my Navarro gets here. I don't have any local retailers who sell flamencos, so I had to buy sight-unseen, and I have read nothing but great reviews of Navarro's guitars so I pulled the trigger on one. You get what you pay for I guess.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 24 2014 13:35:02
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: Can someone explain why these tw... (in reply to wiking

I haven't listened but I can't help but notice there are two different people playing.

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 24 2014 14:04:02
 
krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: Can someone explain why these tw... (in reply to wiking

Different players
Different recording equipment
Different acoustics

and different guitars. Are you sure they are constructed the same? Same thicknesses? Same bracing arrangement, Same bracing dimensions? Same bracing wood from the same batch? Soundboards from the same batch?

There are so many variables, no two guitars will ever be the same.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 24 2014 14:39:53
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Can someone explain why these tw... (in reply to wiking

Me hasn´t listened either, but seeing from your question, I assume that you are overestimating the determining part of the materials.

The building is much more contributing to how things are playable and sounding. The player´s touch also effects so much more than the used sorts of wood. And not at last humidity conditions can make the difference between a highly responsive and a dud sounding very same instrument.
... And not to forget: Recording conditions can present the very same thing as day & night.

Don´t worry too much. Chances are that you will be very pleased with your purchase.

Only, if it comes from a climate very different from your neck of the woods, make sure to have it well acclimatized, before unpacking it.
In that case unpacking the case and leaving it unopened for two days ain´t the worst thing to do.
Provided, you can control yourself that far. :O)

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 24 2014 14:46:06
 
wiking

 

Posts: 63
Joined: Apr. 11 2014
 

RE: Can someone explain why these tw... (in reply to guitarbuddha

You're kidding? I hadn't noticed. Thanks for your invaluable insight, it was a great help.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 24 2014 15:09:12
 
wiking

 

Posts: 63
Joined: Apr. 11 2014
 

RE: Can someone explain why these tw... (in reply to Ruphus

Thanks for this, yeah I figure two unrelated youtube recordings by different people on different guitars is a really a poor way to make a call on the sound of an instrument, but it just had me wondering.

It's coming from Texas and I live on an island the north Atlantic... I'm worried it might be in for a bit of a shock when I open the case, so I'll take a quick peek to make sure it survived shippping and then quickly put it back in its case for a couple days before really digging into it. It beats having the guitar blowing up like a balloon from the humidity and marring the finish/warping the woods. Yikes.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 24 2014 15:12:58
 
ralexander

Posts: 797
Joined: Jun. 1 2010
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia

RE: Can someone explain why these tw... (in reply to wiking

Hi Chris,

Be careful reading too much into youtube video demos, it will drive you crazy.

You already know that the Navarro student models get good reviews for what they are, all that's left now is to wait for your guitar to arrive and judge for yourself. I know how tough it is to find a guitar around here - I just noticed the other day that you're in Newfoundland. I'm living in Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - born and raised in Halifax. I bought and sold 2 expensive handmade guitars before I decided to order my Stephen Faulk blanca. It cost me a bit of money and frustration, but I'm finally happy. There are no guarantees on whether a guitar will speak to you, no matter how much they cost or who builds them. In the end, it's up to your preferences and your ability to coax the sound out of the instrument.

Also, in this particular case you're comparing a high level handmade blanca by our own Ethan Deutsch (who, coincidentally is also the guy playing in the video) with a student guitar that sells for about 1/3-1/4 of the price.

I'm off to a meeting for the afternoon, but I'll write you later to chat about how much it sucks trying to find a good flamenco guitar in these parts

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Ryan
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 24 2014 15:20:41
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: Can someone explain why these tw... (in reply to wiking

quote:

ORIGINAL: wiking

You're kidding? I hadn't noticed. Thanks for your invaluable insight, it was a great help.


Cool.

It looks like you have found advice more in keeping with where you are at. Which is not quite where I am.

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 24 2014 15:25:22
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Can someone explain why these tw... (in reply to wiking

Recording conditions/players are totally different so comparing them is totally pointless. On top the sound quality of an instrument can strongly fluctuate from moment to moment and so can the playing/connecting skills of a player. The piano used during the 2003 Queen Elisabeth Concourse sounded totally crap with all 9 players and 5 long nights of watching seemed to be a total waste of time... until the last contestant (Severin von Eckardstein) entered stage and made the very same instrument sound like heaven. The mood you and the instrument are in/strings/tuning/technique/energy levels/response time and the level you can feel/feed the needs of the instrument can all make a hell of a difference, aside from acoustics and recording conditions.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 24 2014 15:31:58
 
tri7/5

 

Posts: 570
Joined: May 5 2012
 

RE: Can someone explain why these tw... (in reply to wiking

Also in addition to the above, cypress back/sides doesn't guarantee traditional dry rasp. I've played a couple of blancas that were quite refined and smooth in their sound. Cypress classicals exist as well. IMO it's an easier wood to get that sound out of as it has a brighter tap tone and is more earthy and growly than your other back/side woods. However it comes back down to the construction of the guitar overall.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 24 2014 15:59:54
 
wiking

 

Posts: 63
Joined: Apr. 11 2014
 

RE: Can someone explain why these tw... (in reply to ralexander

Glad to see another from my general geographic vicinity on here, thanks for the great response!

I am probably on a fool's errand trying to compare anything online, to be honest. The gentleman who sold this one to me (Ron from Memorial Music in Texas) was very helpful over the phone and he told me point blank that this guitar was a really good "specimen", and it played better than most of the guitars in the shop. I actually asked him if I should make the jump in cost to the Navarro concert blanca and he said not to bother, since the Concert ones he had on hand were basically sounding the same as this Student- which is a very honest thing to hear from a retailer when he could have easily made another 800 American dollars from me.

I suppose, though, that at the end of the day I am a student of the music, and priority #1 in a beginner's guitar is that the instrument responds and plays properly so that my learning isn't inhibited by poor construction (I'm also taking flamenco lessons). Getting THIS picky about tone and timbre and colour of sound at this stage is probably a little bit premature on my part, but I'm sure you understand where I'm coming from, haha. I'll worry more about the finer points when I can at least actually play the thing worth a damn. Cheers!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 24 2014 16:08:16
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Can someone explain why these tw... (in reply to wiking

quote:

why these two guitars sound SO different?


why don't bananas taste the same as apples? ... both are fruit ....?/

If you re-read your own first post , it seems you pretty much answer your own question ...
then add on all the other differences i see others have mentioned ...and few others that haven't came up yet ( like strings , sitting position,, etc etc ) and the whole thing is uncontrollably different .


you have to play 2 guitars yourself to get some kind of comparison

There are a lot of videos around at least by there same player and same set up and playing a similar thing ... so you may have some chance to evaluate a difference ... but not much the way you are doing it ...


here maybe ......



and another .....




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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 24 2014 17:09:46
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Can someone explain why these tw... (in reply to wiking

quote:

ORIGINAL: wiking

The gentleman who sold this one to me (Ron from Memorial Music in Texas) was very helpful over the phone and he told me point blank that this guitar was a really good "specimen", and it played better than most of the guitars in the shop.


Ron is a very well reputated and informed person. On top of that from our talks from years ago I got the firm impression of good-will and integrity of him.
With his description above you can count with a really nice fetch then.

Let us know how you and your teacher like it, once familiar with the guitar for a while.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 24 2014 18:24:09
 
Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Can someone explain why these tw... (in reply to wiking

Here is a Navarro Student Flamenco, notice the difference
Also the guy in the second video uses older strings and he has a "soft" touch with his thumb.
It is really impossible to compare two youtube videos, with two different guitars, two different players, two different recording enviroment and gear, different strings, etc. etc..



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 24 2014 18:41:39
 
wiking

 

Posts: 63
Joined: Apr. 11 2014
 

RE: Can someone explain why these tw... (in reply to Arash

Oh man! Now THAT is the sound! That's what I'm after, 100%. I'll just have to wait till it arrives. I just had to "think out loud" here in the forum because I know next to nothing about flamenco guitars, so I wanted to bounce my thoughts off you guys. It'll be here Monday so I'll post a video clip of it, and some high-res photos.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 24 2014 19:34:17
 
estebanana

Posts: 9396
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Can someone explain why these tw... (in reply to wiking

quote:

I just had to "think out loud" here in the forum because I know next to nothing about flamenco guitars,


You're no different than anyone else here because that's all we do is think out loud about flamenco guitars.

You find it more pleasurable to be inside some posters heads than others.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 25 2014 6:57:36
 
sig

 

Posts: 296
Joined: Nov. 7 2007
From: Wisconsin

RE: Can someone explain why these tw... (in reply to wiking

Man, I'm telling you i've played a Navarro student model against a couple of really decent instruments an Eliasson to name one, and it hung right in there. It really comes down to what you like and the only way to find that out is to try it with other instruments. The problem is that's tough to do in most areas so you have to take a leap of faith in what others are telling you. You made a good decsion to get a Navarro, now when you get it, start learing and enjoy the ride!
Sig--
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 25 2014 14:44:15
 
tijeretamiel

 

Posts: 441
Joined: Jan. 6 2012
 

RE: Can someone explain why these tw... (in reply to El Kiko

quote:

ORIGINAL: El Kiko




I've watched this particular video many, many times and the more I watch the more I'm less and less bothered by the differences between the guitars.

They are all beautiful sounding guitars being played by a great guitarist.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 25 2014 19:41:37
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Can someone explain why these tw... (in reply to wiking

Hey Shubs,

Thanks a bunch for bringing that video to my attention!

You might remember my "phantom guitar". Now I think to have found out with about 80% certainty whose building signature that guitar presented. It seems to have been an Antonio Marin. ( Funny how me was intuitively circling in closer on his name lately.)

The one in this GSI video sounds quite like that wonderful axe I have been dreaming of since 1979 or so. Finally it seems I have at least found out whose shop that was.
I also like it best fom the other high calibers in the video.

And now the funny part.
I had one of our luthiers built me a blanca, describing to him how I remembered what me now thinks to have been an Antonio Marin Montero. Now with the YT on screen I opened a demo recording of what has been built for me for to compare the two tracks, and darn if the characteristics don´t match amazingly well!

Really crazy stuff after all.
Having found someone who builds to your taste in the first place, you describe to him what you want by mere words and what comes out after his understanding turns out indeed so close to the original instrument.
More even, I would say the little peculiarities that differ from the original on top are quite as I would like them to be.

Now the waiting for it to arrive becomes only harder to endure.
( We figured no way yet to get it over to here.)

Too bad that the demo is so large ( 9 MB ) otherwise I would had loved to load it up for you to compare.

Thanks again for the lucky pointer!

Ruphus

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 25 2014 22:15:51
 
estebanana

Posts: 9396
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RE: Can someone explain why these tw... (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

he one in this GSI video sounds quite like that wonderful axe I have been dreaming of since 1979 or so. Finally it seems I have at least found out whose shop that was.


Ah hah!

Another clue about the mysterious Ruphus! I think you were 12 years old in 1979. Is this true?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 27 2014 0:37:48
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Can someone explain why these tw... (in reply to wiking

No. I was older then. :O)

Accidentally I was 12 when first time someone brought me several instruments from a theater storage. Among them a guitar. And it would have been great if I had started at that age already.
However, its strings were completely corroded and unplayable.
So, it took three more years and another country until yours truely finally came to handle the instrument that had been so fascinating since the age of 6 or 7 when hearing acoustic guitar playing in old US western series like "Bonanza" and others.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 27 2014 8:24:06
 
estebanana

Posts: 9396
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Can someone explain why these tw... (in reply to wiking

I was not a Bonanza child, I loved this show called Wild Wild West....and Stalag 13!

Did you know that Col. Klink was the great conductor Otto Klemperers son? Werner Klemperer.

And Schultz: "I see nothing Hogan!"





Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (2)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 27 2014 13:04:37
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Can someone explain why these tw... (in reply to wiking

How could you not like Hoss cartwright or Little Joe? tsk, tsk, tsk!
They would always take a ride to town, beat up the bad guys in the saloon and return to drive the cows. An they had that Chinese cook whom you should had liked too.

Aside of that serial or "Gunsmoke" there were also those typical single movies with redneck John Wayne in which there would often time occure a campfire with one of the cowboys picking up the guitar before throwing the last of coffee into the glow and laying heads on the saddle until morning hour when the bad guy would sneak up and away.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 27 2014 13:19:12
 
estebanana

Posts: 9396
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RE: Can someone explain why these tw... (in reply to wiking

Hoss Schmoss, Dude, the villains in Wild Wild West were the best, like the sick bastard Dr. Ocularis.

Did you ever watch The Avengers?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 27 2014 14:49:46
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Can someone explain why these tw... (in reply to estebanana

Hard to tell after so many decades, but I believe the serials that you mention were not broadcasted in the Germany of that time ( and its altogether 2 channels, besides. :O)

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 27 2014 15:18:03
 
bernd

 

Posts: 680
Joined: Feb. 15 2004
 

RE: Can someone explain why these tw... (in reply to Arash

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arash

Here is a Navarro Student Flamenco, notice the difference
Also the guy in the second video uses older strings and he has a "soft" touch with his thumb.
It is really impossible to compare two youtube videos, with two different guitars, two different players, two different recording enviroment and gear, different strings, etc. etc..

Absoluteley correct as all the other posts. The 2nd guitar of the starting post was recorded with a webcam microphone. Their quality sound generally very lousy. So you can´t expect even a nearly true impression.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 27 2014 17:13:43
 
rojarosguitar

Posts: 243
Joined: Dec. 8 2010
 

RE: Can someone explain why these tw... (in reply to tijeretamiel

quote:

ORIGINAL: tijeretamiel

quote:

ORIGINAL: El Kiko




I've watched this particular video many, many times and the more I watch the more I'm less and less bothered by the differences between the guitars.

They are all beautiful sounding guitars being played by a great guitarist.


On one hand true, on the other when you listen, you can clearly perceive how the different guitars bring quite different inspiration to the player. On the Antonio Marin he makes the impression of almost being bored, and the Grundino seems to turn him on most ...

Just a thought ...

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A good musical instrument is one that inspires one to express as free as possible
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 27 2014 20:24:54
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1691
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Can someone explain why these tw... (in reply to wiking

I've seen that guy playing the top guitar someplace before. Clearly the difference is in the color of the golpeador.

Seriously, though, the materials may be similar but they are treated in very different ways. The thickest parts of the soundboard on the top guitar are less than a tenth of an inch thick. The same parts of the lower guitar might be 50% thicker, for example, which is a huge difference for a soundboard, let alone what the thinnest parts are. You could build a table out of those same materials, but don't expect it to sound like one of my guitars.

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www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 1 2014 2:39:11
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1691
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Can someone explain why these tw... (in reply to Ruphus

...
quote:

Aside of that serial or "Gunsmoke"
...

When I was about 10 years old I played the trumpet in a summer school orchestra where we played "The Theme From Gunsmoke". It is a nice piece. Hear what the trumpets get to do:



_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 1 2014 2:59:26
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1691
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Can someone explain why these tw... (in reply to wiking

You could also compare this:



_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 1 2014 3:01:49
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