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Francisco Navarro Student or Factory Flamenco?
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wiking
Posts: 63
Joined: Apr. 11 2014
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 Francisco Navarro Student or Factory...
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Hello all,
So I'm gearing up to get a Francisco Navarro Student Flamenco (Blanca, ebony pegs) as my first flamenco guitar. I've been playing/tinkering with guitars for about 15 years, I'm not afraid of pegs, and I really like their look and apparent tone. I'd like to know how these generally stack up (at around $950 USD shipped to me in Newfoundland) to something from, say, Cordoba like the Solista F, at $1700. The Solista is more expensive, and appears to be made with better materials, but it is still cheaper than the Navarro Concert Flamenco. It seems independent luthier guitars are generally a notch above similarly priced factory guitars, but Cordoba seems to get pretty good reviews and their website looks clean and modern. They look like they can make a good product, and I'm just trying to get the most for my, say, $1700 USD budget. Navarro makes the $950 Student (Price quoted + shipping from Ron at Memorial Music) and then it jumps immediately to the $2000 Concert, and I'd like something in between.
That said, has anyone played a Navarro Concert flamenco and is it so much better than a Cordoba Solista that I should just bite the bullet and go for it?
Also, it's worth noting that there are no flamenco guitars in any of the shops in my entire province (I've called everywhere) so whatever I get, it will have to be sight unseen, unfortunately. I've never even held a flamenco guitar before... Haha.
Thanks for any input
CH
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Date Apr. 13 2014 2:32:38
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Haithamflamenco
Posts: 927
Joined: Mar. 6 2007
From: Bahrain
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RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Fac... (in reply to wiking)
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ole winking,
look at lasonato web for videos for the fransisco navarro,
Cordoba , my friend owned the F7 model, with truss rtod!! laminated cypressdd back and side and he compare it to the top model solista, the F7 sounds better thane the three piece back solsita!!!
the cordoba 45fm , maple sounds really normal, no flamenco, thick neck.
once I asked your question in the foro, Jeason McGuire adivce me to go with fransisoc navvaro and slivador castiilo, for student guitar,
ole 
_____________________________
Bahrain is my country and Andalucia is my dream
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Date Apr. 13 2014 6:25:20
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estebanana
Posts: 9413
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Fac... (in reply to wiking)
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I've tried really hard to dislike Mexican guitars in the $1000.00 - $2000.00 price range. but I can't in the end justify not liking them. I've seen a lot of them many Castillos and a couple dozen Monalvos have crossed my bench for work.
Are they the end al be all guitars? Perhaps not, but some of them have served well as professional players guitars. Are they now quite consistent in structural integrity and good sound, yes certainly.
Mexican guitars got a bad rap for a long time, but today you can hold up the best of them with most Spanish makers at the same price level. The best hand built guitars from Navarro I've seen were quite good, a pro could use one for career if they picked the right one. I know of one pro who uses one last I checked.
If you are looking for a top tier guitar from Mexico or anywhere else be prepared to pay more money than $2000.00- But if you want your first guitar or an affordable extra second guitar in the $950.00 to $1800.00 niche the three Mexican makers Montalvo, Castillo and Navarro are all good bets. If you go for one of their more expansive guitars you will also get a good guitar, but you're on your own judging it.
I'll risk a story that might not even be good for me to tell:
I built a seven string classical for a Brazilian composer performer, fantastic guitar in my opinion. He had to move from the US back to Brazil, he sold my guitar and bought a Montalvo. My guitar was expensive and the Montalvo was not as expensive. He made some money back to help defray the costs of moving back.
He recorded with my guitar and his band mates came up to me after shows to say they really liked the sound he had with my guitar. he like the guitar and recorded with it. So I know it had appeal and I have no doubt it will get better and time goes by. That guitar does not have a big brassy voice, it is more intimate with sweet responsive trebles, really good intonation and a spectrum of tone color easy to draw out. What I would say was a good studio recording guitar. In the right conditions it is a precision tool. I made it that way.
He took home a Montalvo. The seven strings I have played at that shop have big voices, they are robust and strong, really healthy good guitars. They have a different sound than mine. My seven strings are quite good, but I can't make everyones perfect guitar from a cost against sound stand point. I take into account all the factors the player asks for, scale length, sound port, width at nut saddle neck shape. All these things get dailed in special for each customer. That's one big reason why individual builders command higher prices. We work with tight perimeters and specs dictated by the client. Sometimes a guitarist can find a compromise in a premade guitar, but more often in the higher price ranges they just ask a custom builder to make one for them. It saves time and effort searching endlessly for something that the customer may not find.
In the area of under $2000.00 premade guitars the niche is full of good guitars right now. It's a proper price range to get a first guitar because a beginner might not be fully sure of how they even want to play stylistically yet. The specifics of what a beginner wants are not formulated in the players head yet from actual experience. People who start a project like flamenco guitar playing have a notion of what it might be like, but until they play for 6 months or two years the new starter might not know which questions to ask or who to get a good flamenco sound from any guitar.
It's better to not throw all your money into a custom guitar right at the start. Grow gradually and trade up as you go along while you learn which guitars suit you. And hopefully later you come to one of the custom makers to build you a guitar after you know more about it. I'm just being honest, in hopes that as players grow they will patronize individual guitar makers.
And having my own guitar, which was top tier in sound and playibility swapped out for a Montalvo stung in the beginning. But as I thought about it, it's just the business and there's no reason to be insecure. The guitar now belongs to another player and it has NOT surfaced on the open market so it's a keeper. The guitar a starter buys for $1400.00 might stay with them for life, be a keeper too, but five years down the line they might give me a call, or another custom builder a chance.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Apr. 15 2014 1:34:48
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Ramon Amira
Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City
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RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Fac... (in reply to mellowmel)
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quote:
The "complete dud reviewer" happens to be a local professional guitarist (who also buy and sell flamenco guitars his whole adult life) and you two totally missed the point which is the capacity of this maker to send off duds
We all know that every guitar is individual, and the output of any luthier, even the greatest, will be variable to a degree. But that is only in a relative sense, not an absolute sense. So it's one thing to say that some particular luthier made some guitars that were better than some other of his guitars, and a different thing to say that this same luthier made a dud.
In forty years as a performer and dealer, I have played a lot of guitars, and never once played one made by an experienced luthier that I considered a dud. It is entirely inconceivale to me that any experienced luthier - and we have some fine ones right here on the foro - could ever construct a "dud." Perhaps very early in their careers, while they were still learning their art, but not now.
Francisco Navarro is a highly regarded luthier, one of vast experience. He wouldn't know how to construct a dud if he tried. Nor would any experienced luthier.
Here's a quote from Manuel Reyes in an interview:
"I don't make bad guitars."
Ramon
_____________________________
Classical and flamenco guitars from Spain Ramon Amira Guitars
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Date Apr. 15 2014 15:40:58
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Tom Blackshear
Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
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RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Fac... (in reply to Ramon Amira)
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quote:
Francisco Navarro is a highly regarded luthier, one of vast experience. He wouldn't know how to construct a dud if he tried. Nor would any experienced luthier.
Mexico builders didn't see the advantage of making a European motif and style until about twenty years ago. Even the Juan Pimentel guitars of Mexico city in the 50's and 60's were not of the same caliber as a student model Conde Hermanos.
They could make a nice piece of furniture but the tone was not up to par with the Europeans. But due to the influx of Chinese guitars coming into their country, something had to be done to recover their lost sales.
I did my best to try and help the Mexico builders switch to a European motif, with signing a green card for Lucio Nunez and hiring him to work with me until he got established with his own shop, which I was very happy to see that he accomplished it by himself.
And later on, when I donated a Reyes style guitar plan to the GAL, it was a little later that I met Francisco Navarro through two friends of mine, Elario Lozano and Ron Hudson, of Houston Texas, at the Summer NAMM show in Austin Texas.
The rest of this meeting wound up at my home in San Antonio, for me to host Francisco in my home for the week-end and to share some of my fine tuning techniques about the guitar plan.
It took Navarro a little while to lock in the flat top technique but he accomplished it and is now doing quite well with this model. I applaud both of these persons who took the bull by the horns and are now doing well with it. All they needed was to be introduced to a higher understanding of a model that sells well in the US and Europe.
Note: Lucio has developed a remarkable lattice braced guitar that has a lot of European flavor.
Also, Stephen Faulk and Anders are established guitarreros on this foro and deserve your continued patronage. They are tried and confirmed to be of the finest quality work and performance.
_____________________________
Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
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Date Apr. 15 2014 16:42:47
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sig
Posts: 296
Joined: Nov. 7 2007
From: Wisconsin
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RE: Francisco Navarro Student or Fac... (in reply to wiking)
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I'm probably too late to this discussion but I've played the Navarro student model, not pegs, machines, it was owned by a friend and its a very good instrument. I also have had the chance to play an Ander's instrument and I personally own a Culpepper. While both my guitar and the Ander's we're "better" in my IMHO, the Navarro would be an excellent choice for someone new to flamenco or even a more advanced student. It was well made, had nice low action and a good flamenco growl and more importantly, it "felt" right.
For the money, I don't think you could do much better than a Navarro however if you had a chance to play it side by side with other factory models you might find you actually like one of those better. Of course this is all subjective to the player and their level of experience with flamenco guitars. I was in the same position as you when I started playing flamenco, I had a number of years under my belt playing guitar but had no clue as to what made a good or bad flamenco guitar. This was back in 2001 and frankly, my only option at that time for a decent starter instrument was a C3F Rodriguez which was really not all that good in hindsight. I was lucky in that I found a good teacher who knew flamenco guitars and pointed some things out so the next instrument I purchased was better. The point of my story is that the Navarro is plenty good for a beginner and will allow you to grow into your art if you stick with it. If not, everyone is looking for a good starter flamenco guitar and you get most of your investment back!
Sig--
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Date Apr. 15 2014 21:59:41
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