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tele

Posts: 1435
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: New guitar "break in"? (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:


A strong generalization will be that the poorer player is more obsessed with sound (that he/she cant produce anyway)]


also the brand and price tag

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 19 2014 17:16:43
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: New guitar "break in"? (in reply to tele

The bedroom remark certainly makes sense.
But the soft and in the same time loud combination can occure. My old Ramirez is rather soft than medium, yet really loud. Only in view of percussiveness I would say that there it is situated more on the sustaining side. ( Much like the sound stage on corresponding Sabicas records.)

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 19 2014 17:44:24
 
johnguitar

 

Posts: 155
Joined: Jan. 10 2006
 

RE: New guitar "break in"? (in reply to tele

I think it is against the forum rules to have two intelligent comments or more in one thread. (I agree wholeheartedly with the two following ones.)

quote:

to me at least 90% of the sound quality comes from the fingers, the rest is the guitar.


quote:

And then there is that thing that preceeds the sound, if you will.
How that thing feels under your fingers, plays with your diaphragm ... How it vibrates from top to bottom, how the strings give in under your fingertips and how they return.
All that leads to how you touch, how you be inspired and after all produce sound.


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 20 2014 5:43:24
 
estebanana

Posts: 7746
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: New guitar "break in"? (in reply to johnguitar

quote:

I think it is against the forum rules to have two intelligent comments or more in one thread. I agree wholeheartedly with the two following.

quote:

to me at least 90% of the sound quality comes from the fingers, the rest is the guitar.


quote:

And then there is that thing that preceeds the sound, if you will.
How that thing feels under your fingers, plays with your diaphragm ... How it vibrates from top to bottom, how the strings give in under your fingertips and how they return.
All that leads to how you touch, how you be inspired and after all produce sound.


_____________________________


Wait...hold on..you mean the guitar breaks in your fingers! Limbers them up, strengthens them, teaches them where to land next to the fret for maximum power, which in turn trains your ear to find the best ways to touch the guitar to make it play clearly and with punch?


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 20 2014 7:28:06
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: New guitar "break in"? (in reply to tele

What mean you with fingers brake!?
Ya say dat agayn, me call broter big of mine and crick he your sorrie azz!

Rufuzz
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 20 2014 8:44:49
 
estebanana

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RE: New guitar "break in"? (in reply to tele

So now you speak Oakland argot? Hahaha amazing.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 20 2014 11:08:06
 
tele

Posts: 1435
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: New guitar "break in"? (in reply to estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Wait...hold on..you mean the guitar breaks in your fingers! Limbers them up, strengthens them, teaches them where to land next to the fret for maximum power, which in turn trains your ear to find the best ways to touch the guitar to make it play clearly and with punch?



Mighty fingers force the guitar perform better, because if it doesn't they'll punch a hole through the top


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 20 2014 12:01:23
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: New guitar "break in"? (in reply to estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

So now you speak Oakland argot? Hahaha amazing.


Really? I hadn´t thought it could be sounding like anything actually existing.
Funny if it somewhat hit a style!

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 20 2014 13:23:37
 
bule_b

 

Posts: 65
Joined: Mar. 11 2009
 

RE: New guitar "break in"? (in reply to johnguitar

quote:

to me at least 90% of the sound quality comes from the fingers, the rest is the guitar


So two luthiers who make their living selling handmade guitars (John & Stephen) agree with this remark?

So then as someone who has always wanted to own an expensive handmade luthier instrument, why should I bother upgrading from my $200 cheap Yamaha?
Aren't you just talking yourselves out of business?

Why would anyone bother to play with a $7000 Conde when a Yamaha that costs $200 is supposedly 90% as good (which in reality is absolutely not the case)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 20 2014 20:14:14
 
orsonw

Posts: 1452
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: New guitar "break in"? (in reply to bule_b

quote:

Why would anyone bother to play with a $7000 "guitar" when a Yamaha that costs $200 is supposedly 90% as good (which in reality is absolutely not the case)


That 10% extra is worth the money!

(Sorry for changing your quote but mine is a non-Conde specific opinion)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 20 2014 20:33:47
 
tele

Posts: 1435
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: New guitar "break in"? (in reply to bule_b

The "10 percent" (just an estimate) improvement to your sound is worth it if you love playing It just doesn't make anyone play better. It's just that so many people are more concerned about their instruments than their practice.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 20 2014 22:00:09
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: New guitar "break in"? (in reply to bule_b

quote:

ORIGINAL: bule_b

So two luthiers who make their living selling handmade guitars (John & Stephen) agree with this remark?


I never said that. I said that 10% improvement is a lot; however even though the difference between a adequate guitar and a good guitar is perhaps only 10% it puts the two instruments worlds apart. The quality of a musical instrument is a very difficult thing to quantify so when you get past the measurable basics of how high the action is and how far the strings are from the soundboard at the bridge etc. it's pretty much a judgement call. I know a good guitar when I play one is how it ends up. If the difference between a junk mass produced guitar and a quality hand made instrument elludes you then by all means get yourself a yamaha (or whatever).

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 20 2014 22:43:42
 
estebanana

Posts: 7746
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: New guitar "break in"? (in reply to bule_b

quote:

So then as someone who has always wanted to own an expensive handmade luthier instrument, why should I bother upgrading from my $200 cheap Yamaha?


What do your ears tell you?

If it were me in your situation, I would upgrade to the $500.00 Yamaha first. The $500.00 dollar Yamaha is head and shoulders a better guitar than the cheapest one. It sounds better and plays better and it is not a great expenditure to lay out in order to see what an upgrade feels like.

I always encourage players to upgrade at a moderate pace and not jump from the first guitar to the 7000.00 Conde'- because you don't know exactly what kind of a player you are yet. Our tastes and opinions change and you have to collect your guitars at that pace. You might like one sound now and then in three years outgrow that sound and think you were wrong about that kind of sound. Then three years later you might reverse that opinion and realize the true you is the first sound that struck you. If you latch onto a 7000.00 instrument right in the beginning you won't be giving yourself the time to develop without the prejudice of owning an expensive instrument and your wallet a pride can get all wrapped up in your next choice.


Between the 500.00 and the 2500.00 Valencia factory guitar there's a step up, sometimes a small step, sometimes a big leap. After that the leaps are still there, but you have to know what you are looking for. You can trust your gut about the sound of a 4000.00 guitar and it will probably be right, but I always say go at a moderate pace of developing a taste for guitars.

The $200 Yamaha will not give you as much satisfaction in richness of sound and playability after you sample a few very fine guitars, be they $2500 or $7000, but go slow and decide why the higher cost guitars feel better and sound better.


It's not my place to try to up sell you a guitar, it's your responsibility to go out and educate yourself and enjoy the process of learning about guitars. If you have to ask why there is a difference between the 200 and the 7000 dollar guitar ( and maybe your question is purely hypothetical) then is leads me to think you have lot of discoveries to make about guitar sound. I say discoveries in the sense that they will be fun, satisfying and mind/ear altering discoveries if you go at medium pace and play as many guitars as you can.

Do I want to sell guitars? Sure, of course. Do I want people to enjoy the spectrum of sounds and guitars out there? You bet I do. Why? Because if you know what is out there and you pick me or someone else to make your guitar it means much more because you made an educated effort to understand what we as guitar makers are trying to do, besides making a living. We don't make lot of money doing this, so there must be something else driving us to make guitars besides money.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 21 2014 1:42:53
 
estebanana

Posts: 7746
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: New guitar "break in"? (in reply to tele

Do I think guitars "break in" ?

Yes:

1. I think they settle in structurally under tension.

2. I think the finish continues to lose solvent mass and surface tension as it gets to be few months old.

3. I think the player contributes to the sound by activating the strings which in turn helps the instrument settle itself structurally.

4. I think the instrument works on the player if the player likes the guitar- it encourages them to explore the range of sounds possible and the player learns the subtle ways in which each guitar wants to be activated. The guitarist finds the sweet spots on that guitar and goes back to them.

______________________

There's no empirical proof of this, but I've seen a guitar get killed by a powerful player. That tells me one thing, the guitar was built to sound old right away and after a short time it settled in structurally there was not much left to draw from.

I'm pretty much done on this topic, but I'll leave with a question: Think of an archery bow. They come in different pull strengths, eventually do you think archery bows lose some strength? If so, why?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 21 2014 1:57:25
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12081
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: New guitar "break in"? (in reply to estebanana

quote:

There's no empirical proof of this, but I've seen a guitar get killed by a powerful player.


I have heard this before, but never experienced it. Can explain what you mean by "killed"? Perhaps the guitar became dull or quiet or muffled or something? Like when strings go dead and you put new ones on to restore brilliance, but on such guitars it does no good anymore? Unless you mean it broke inside, yes I have seen that.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 21 2014 18:00:09
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: New guitar "break in"? (in reply to tele

I doubt it too.
The main cones of my speakers ( of paper) have seen some extreme work over decades and still do flawlessly.
Can´t believe that in contrast the low intensity of guitars volume to be harming something comparably as rigid like a guitar top.
Me thinks, wearing out of guitars through sound production got to be a myth.

Losing consitence through drying out, etc. should be something else, but structure wearing off through sound: Nyiet.

Ruphus



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 21 2014 19:03:49
 
estebanana

Posts: 7746
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: New guitar "break in"? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Can explain what you mean by "killed"?


I did. In the sentence right after I said a GUITAR WAS KILLED.

Redrum, call in the FCSI* Team.





*Flamenco Crime Scene Investigators

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 22 2014 8:58:14
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: New guitar "break in"? (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

I doubt it too.
The main cones of my speakers ( of paper) have seen some extreme work over decades and still do flawlessly.
Can´t believe that in contrast the low intensity of guitars volume to be harming something comparably as rigid like a guitar top.
Me thinks, wearing out of guitars through sound production got to be a myth.


Guitars get worn out because of the constant drag from the strings deforming the soundboard. I suppuse that your speakers are sleaping when you sleep and when you dont hear music. Unless you tune down a guitar, its under constant stress and the soundboard "dishes in front of the bridge and lifts behind the bridge. Its more extreme on steel string guitars than on nylons.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 22 2014 18:06:20
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: New guitar "break in"? (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

Unless you tune down a guitar, its under constant stress and the soundboard "dishes in front of the bridge and lifts behind the bridge. Its more extreme on steel string guitars than on nylons.


Dished in tops are a reknown issue, but I assume the idea to be about guitars that be not necessarily deformed, yet "exhausted" through too much playing.
That is at least the vision I recall people mentioning.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 22 2014 19:56:11
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12081
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: New guitar "break in"? (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

quote:

I doubt it too.
The main cones of my speakers ( of paper) have seen some extreme work over decades and still do flawlessly.
Can´t believe that in contrast the low intensity of guitars volume to be harming something comparably as rigid like a guitar top.
Me thinks, wearing out of guitars through sound production got to be a myth.


Guitars get worn out because of the constant drag from the strings deforming the soundboard. I suppuse that your speakers are sleaping when you sleep and when you dont hear music. Unless you tune down a guitar, its under constant stress and the soundboard "dishes in front of the bridge and lifts behind the bridge. Its more extreme on steel string guitars than on nylons.



That makes sense, but what has that to do with the way it is played? And I am still confused as to what are the sonic results exactly of a "worn out" or "killed" guitar.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 22 2014 20:09:57
 
estebanana

Posts: 7746
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: New guitar "break in"? (in reply to tele

Riconde',

When someone kills guitar is is a crime and they are not going to simply confess to killing a guitar any more that you can simply walk into Mordor and drop a ring into a volcano. The killing of a guitar is a serious, serious offense punishable by life in prison or death by lethal administration of Paco Pena falsetas or in the case particularly brutal deaths execution by bamberas.

Now let this rest, please I implore you.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 22 2014 23:14:36
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12081
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: New guitar "break in"? (in reply to estebanana

Sorry...what I mean is ITS BS. YOu can't kill a guitar by f ing playing it. Unless you break the damn thing. Ok moving on.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 23 2014 6:59:44
 
Anders Eliasson

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RE: New guitar "break in"? (in reply to tele

quote:

YOu can't kill a guitar by f ing playing it.


have you never seen a Rumbero in one of Granadas more obscure flamenco cuevas, early in the morning after a ton of beers and white powder inside the nose?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 23 2014 16:38:12
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