RE: Picado and hand size.

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el carbonero

Posts: 295
Joined: Jun. 23 2007

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to edgar884)

Nothing to declare with your right hand.

maybe the problem is your left hand?

sometimes we believe in the index,annular ,medius etcc and finaly it is the syncronisation with left hand is no good

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 2 2014 13:27:05

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to el carbonero)

One thing I think most aspiring picado-meisters could use is this book:

http://tinyurl.com/mwshqmp

The Little Book of Talent. 52 tips on how to practice. Nothing about picado, specifically, but about what works in developing world-class skills. By comparing it to what we do, we can improve our methods. It's also very inspiring.

Edgar, for what it's worth, I don't think anything's wrong with your LH, the problem is in the RH. The thing that jumped out to me is that your string changing is erratic and there's a lot of wasted and off-axis movement. Most great im'ers have very efficient and machine-like movement; their fingers look like little pistons and are never flopping or flying out at odd angles. But you probably need to model that slowly, going for perfect rep after perfect rep, for quite some time.

Best thing would be to choose one exercise or idea and practice that every day for a month. If nothing happens, then choose another one and do that one for a month. The body needs time for the work to really sink in and have an effect. This is where you have to have faith in your teacher and your body.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 2 2014 14:07:16

Ricardo

Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to edgar884)

quote:

I'm so frustrated with my damn hands. I do staccato and it looks good.
But I try and do picado normal and it looks like crap.

Good. You need to play ONLY staccato at all times for everything from now on. Keep doing that for about 5 years, then try "normal" picado for a change and you will notice improvement.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 5 2014 15:49:28

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to el carbonero)

Haven't read all the replies but you might try using say m a or i a rather than i m. I started playing scales a long time ago with m a to save wear on i which seems to wear down more quickly. David Russell tho recommends putting tape on the nails to reduce the wear from scale practice. It will take a while to get used to the new combination.
Angelo Gilarodino in his Easy Studies for Guitar#10 which is a study of rapidly repeated notes recommends p i or i a

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 5 2014 16:14:43

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Keep doing that for about 5 years, then try "normal" picado for a change and you will notice improvement.

Come on, dude! Someone might notice an effect within a day or two, and that should be all the incentive they need to adopt this practice technique with discipline and consistency!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 5 2014 17:01:45

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to el carbonero)

Hmmmm seems weird for a man in his 80's to have a 16 year old boy for his avatar.......lol

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 5 2014 17:40:42

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to el carbonero)

It's all in YOUR mind.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 5 2014 18:01:55

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to el carbonero)

lol maybe, he's got a purdy mouth lol

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 5 2014 18:17:45

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to el carbonero)

I've been listening to a lot of Tomatito lately and thinking how lucky Jose Jr. is to have such a master for a father and wondering if Jr will develop into the artist Tomatito is. I like this one.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 5 2014 18:36:32

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to el carbonero)

So I was wondering what Paco's hand size was since he's a picado master and I don't recall his fingers being as small as Manolo or Cepero etc.
I used the handy dandy scaling software at work and assuming the nut on his guitar is 52mm, his middle finger at the knuckle appears to be 104mm, about 4.09". My finger comes in at about 4.75"......It would be interesting to see where you come in Gabe, my picado is not great but I feel like the only reason it's not better is due to me being lazy....

0:36

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 5 2014 19:10:25

pink

Posts: 570
Joined: Jan. 8 2013

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to Leñador)

Hand size, ''purdy'' mouth.....these pages don't appear to be sticking together, nor too the members......ummmmm!!! Ha ha!!

Best

pink

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 5 2014 20:49:38

Pgh_flamenco

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to el carbonero)

There was a thread on this topic a few years ago and somebody posted a pic of PDL's hands. I looked, but have been unable to find it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 5 2014 22:36:33

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to el carbonero)

That seems to be the ultimate put down here: Oh this topic was discussed 6 years ago. why are you bringing it up again?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 5 2014 22:55:17

Pgh_flamenco

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

That seems to be the ultimate put down here: Oh this topic was discussed 6 years ago. why are you bringing it up again?

I think Norman posted a pic of PDL's hands which appeared to show that his I and M fingers were very close in length. I like what Lenador has done and some people might like to see the pic from the other thread.

Jason McGuire commented that too many threads on this site had to do with picado, fingernails and finding a cheap guitar that sounded like an expensive one. Was he wrong?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 6 2014 0:17:25

Aretium

Posts: 277
Joined: Oct. 23 2012

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)

quote:

Jason McGuire commented that too many threads on this site had to do with picado, fingernails and finding a cheap guitar that sounded like an expensive one. Was he wrong?

Very. What he should have said was PEOPLE are obsessed with these things. I think also many people on this forum are not only interested in Flamenco but its techniques and making their own music. Picado is a sort of bridge between Flamenco and other music.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 6 2014 0:29:28

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to el carbonero)

quote:

I think Norman posted a pic of PDL's hands which appeared to show that his I and M fingers were very close in length.

I like it, I could scale the i finger and get some sort of ratio, we'll find out if there's some magic in the ratio.

All completely anecdotal but interesting.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 6 2014 0:36:24

Pgh_flamenco

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to Aretium)

quote:

Very. What he should have said was PEOPLE are obsessed with these things.

How is the point of your statement different from the point Jason was making?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 6 2014 0:37:14

Pgh_flamenco

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

I like it, I could scale the i finger and get some sort of ratio, we'll find out if there's some magic in the ratio. All completely anecdotal but interesting.

I can see how a large difference in finger length could be an obstacle to developing picado, but having fingers that are ideally suited to picado might not help a lot of people. IIRC Ricardo commented about the importance of developing picado before the age of eight to be really good at it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 6 2014 0:42:57

Aretium

Posts: 277
Joined: Oct. 23 2012

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)

quote:

How is the point of your statement different from the point Jason was making?

It is the same point I just don't like it when people attack a forum where there are thousands of opinions. However now I realise I came off welll to strong and was probably wrong, its late and I've been working all day my head is a car crash, time to fall asleep with some flamenco (if thats possible).

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 6 2014 1:27:37

Ricardo

Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Keep doing that for about 5 years, then try "normal" picado for a change and you will notice improvement.

Come on, dude! Someone might notice an effect within a day or two, and that should be all the incentive they need to adopt this practice technique with discipline and consistency!

A day or two? Most people notice the effect instantly, like Gabe did in the first post. But my point is it will take YEARS before it becomes a natural feeling or comfortable feeling to control your movement efficiently without the "trick" of staccato. Or rather, the issue about Picado is really SPEED. People can generally go very slow and be efficient but as they speed up they lose it and the fingers flop about and endurance is lost etc. Ain't gonna happen over night to get that efficient staccato type control at necessary tempos to play actual music you probably want to. My point is once you have the right thing going on, it takes some YEARS to develop. We all know Todd has been jumping on this poor guy but he is basically been saying that the results come from slow disciplined practice. Gabriel has felt the improvement and wants a pat on the back for it from people he respects. I would say he deserves it, but here we are now at the same stage developing a new simple idea. We can blame the length of the fingers or the age we started learning etc, but the truth is we need to be patient with new techniques and not make excuses for not seeing instant results in "a day or two".

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 6 2014 12:06:46

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to edgar884)

wide string spacing is a good solution for long fingered people. It's not rare to see 60-61mm string spacing on guitars , I guess most often it's about 57mm

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 6 2014 12:36:19

Ricardo

Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to tele)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tele

wide string spacing is a good solution for long fingered people. It's not rare to see 60-61mm string spacing on guitars , I guess most often it's about 57mm

Practice picado on ukelele then.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 6 2014 12:52:51

edgar884

Posts: 1975
Joined: Nov. 16 2005

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to el carbonero)

All great advice and info. I should slow down and lis
ten.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 6 2014 15:21:16

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to Ricardo)

Ricardo, I feel the problem for most people is they don't have faith in the process. They go for speed right away and get frustrated. It seems like it's there, but they hit a wall and it might take years and injuries to actually realize they've been doing it wrong. Then they start looking for answers, and they get a lot of them. But what advice to believe? I don't think that most people practice it precisely, with perfect rhythm, stacatto and relaxing between notes--otherwise more people would be competent at this technique. And I have to assume that most people don't initially think it's working, so they aren't willing to invest the time to make it automatic.

(too autobiographical? ;) )

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 6 2014 15:21:22

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Here is the process applied to another field.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=the+training+pyramid&client=firefox-a&hs=nOE&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=Sgz0Uqf-E8zT7AbKsIGgDg&ved=0CC8QsAQ&biw=1366&bih=645

I suppose the idea is that if you want a taller pyramid then you need to widen the base or wait for it to fall over.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 6 2014 21:31:28

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Todd has been jumping on this poor guy but he is basically been saying that the results come from slow disciplined practice. Gabriel has felt the improvement and wants a pat on the back for it from people he respects. I would say he deserves it, but here we are now at the same stage developing a new simple idea. We can blame the length of the fingers or the age we started learning etc, but the truth is we need to be patient with new techniques and not make excuses for not seeing instant results in "a day or two".

Thanks for the back up! :) i apologize for my harshness with Gabe.
I really just want him to understand this process.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 6 2014 23:25:10

edgar884

Posts: 1975
Joined: Nov. 16 2005

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to el carbonero)

I think I finally understand. I realized the other day that I don't play apoyanda on the d string or the g string, and when I do something crazy happens.
I did a new slow vid solea with a metronome and I think it is actually sounding Flamenco even thought it is slow. There are some mistakes because I'm totally shifting and changing how I use my thumb, mainly putting it more forward and making sure I play apoyanda no exceptions, ok rareley breaking the rule. It makes me use less energy and my hand looks like it should even though it is big. I really hope I'm figuring something out here. I am doing picado staccato slow with a metronome but don't wont to bore anyone with that. Might as well post it here.

Be back soon.

Here it is, I'm so scared playing slow is hard for me. think I could slow it down another couple notches and Just realized a big section is out of compas and then comes back in ohwell, I'ts not my best playing but it looks better and my hand doesn't seem to by flopping all over. I will keep doing arrp studies and slow Picado with metronome and all Apoyanda, (very important). Ive had a huge realization here but can't explain it all now, getting ready to jump on a plane and go to New York.

http://youtu.be/VEUeGPPy1FI

Sorry for being a dick and a dumbass Todd. Don't tell me I'm getting it right until I get it right.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 7 2014 2:14:03

mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to edgar884)

quote:

Sorry for being a dick and a dumbass Todd. Don't tell me I'm getting it right until I get it right.

Do not worry. There are others members who would tell you how good your playing is when there are issues in it...hopefully toodk is not one of them

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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 7 2014 7:44:59

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to el carbonero)

It depends on the presumed level.
I appreciate them all, fom early beginner to accomplished one and all that is in between.
- And many, unless having had perfect starting conditions will be wandering through the levels for decades.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 7 2014 9:16:40

Ricardo

Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to edgar884)

quote:

I did a new slow vid solea with a metronome and I think it is actually sounding Flamenco even thought it is slow.

Very good job man. Some of your best playing, even Todd should agree. Keep it up man!

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 7 2014 20:30:03