RE: Picado and hand size.

Costs are rising and times are tough.
Please consider a donation to keep this
place going.

Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.

You are logged in as Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >>Discussions >>General >>

Page: << < 3 4 [5] 6 7 > >>

Message

<< Newer Topic Older Topic >>

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to machopicasso)

quote:

In the past, he's frequently worked from private videos of the guitarists he's transcribing.

I think only for the music books he has published, not for the individual tab only transcriptions

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2014 21:24:46

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

The Claude Worms version has notation I will send you a link.

I haven't checked all of them, but some of the Claude Worms transcriptions are hilariously way off.
If you have the book, have a look at the transcription of Reina de Silia....

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2014 21:26:06

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to mark indigo)

Found this very nice interpretation of Vicente's granainas played by a very talented youngster. He has posted another recording of it as well, played 1 month after he ear played it (that one happened to have some foro member youtube comments). But this is a better version.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 17 2014 23:34:00

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to mark indigo)

Wow! Can't see his face but from the look of his hands he is young. I listened to a number of amature recordings of VA when I was working on it and none came anywhere near this. This might give some of the flamencos here pause. Wish he had turned off the fan though.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2014 9:57:22

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

Can't see his face but from the look of his hands he is young.

have a look at his other vids

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2014 11:36:46

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to mark indigo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

have a look at his other vids

By clicking the title left above on the video you are linked to the original youtube channel offering that video which in this case happens to be his personal channel, offering various home made recordings.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2014 16:45:58

kikkoman

Posts: 108
Joined: Nov. 19 2009

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to mark indigo)

i think the guy is vietnamese judging by the language

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2014 19:28:51

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to mark indigo)

Wow, incredible playing, my girlfriend's gunna love to see this.

_____________________________

\m/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2014 20:09:05

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to mark indigo)

And another . too bad no video. Yeah, I need to see the video.

this is getting ridiculous

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2014 22:27:08

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to aeolus)

Actually, aside from being impressive that tarantas is played pretty sloppy as well :-).

Still, another proof of how natural (extremely fast) picado runs (seems to) come to some.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2014 23:16:34

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to Erik van Goch)

quote:

Actually, aside from being impressive that tarantas is played pretty sloppy as well :-).

Still, another proof of how natural (extremely fast) picado runs (seems to) come to some.

When the virtuoso Eliot Fisk was in high school in Philadelphia taking lessons at the guitar shop his exceptional talent was noted but it was thought he played too fast. And he still does.Hr scorns the note perfect obsession of others looking for electricity he says. It sounds sloppy often but it hasn't hurt his career ;-)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2014 10:54:38

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus

his exceptional talent was noted but it was thought he played too fast.

That's what happening in above tarantas well. As a matter of fact there are lots of players i would like to slow down every now and then.

In 1987 i attended my first Gerardo Nuñez concert. He covered the final hour of a six hour flamenco marathon concert and the only reason people had survived the previous hour was because everybody wanted to see Gerardo. But what a disappointment. He played like he had to catch the next plain and intended to leave the stage asap without skipping a single note....... well sort of because he most certainly didn't give them time to shine as well. I guess that night he lost more (potential) dutch fans then he gained. Don't forget he had not released any records yet (and internet didn't exist) so concerts like these were the only opportunity to see/hear an artist like him in action (and for the artist a one time change to leave a good or bad impression). But sometimes even the best album can not save your ass. Two years later Manolo Sanlucar left the very same stage halfway his tauromagia concert in a very angry mood, blaming the band without any cause. He was never invited back to the netherlands again despite a long and growing dutch flamenco tradition (including a prestigious dutch flamenco biënnale). An artist who did made an excellent impression on the same stage a couple of years later was the 15 year old Jeronimo Maya. His level of playing was halfway that of the 15 year old Vicente Amigo and the (at the time) 25 year old Vicente (who just made his first record). So Jeronimo seemed to catch in with Vicente. Unfortunately it was the very last Jeronimo concert i was able to enjoy... for years i could not find any new updates of him and when he finally returned to the Netherlands 10 years later he had totally lost his previous magic. On top, if anyone deserves a ticked for speed driving....

In the mid 90ties i attended a masterclass of Manolo Franco during my very first Spain trip. Soleares was on the menu and he started by demonstrating a couple of his soleares variations at a (slightly) lower speed. It was an incredible delight to hear and enjoy the exceptional musical richness of those variations. Next he played them at normal speed and they instantly lost all attraction. The main course was him trying to teach us how to play a selected soleares tremolo. It was total chaos...30 foreign students trying to copy it in 30 different tempi and on top the tremolo he selected was way below my level of interest. Since i could compose several better ones myself in the time they needed to learn that beginners tremolo i used the break to sneak out and enjoy the city of Cordoba in stead.

Speaking about Cordoba, Vicente tended to speed up some of his material as well over the years. Obviously when you play a beautiful piece for the first time it gives you a real musical kick. Over the years that initial kick can fade away, making you long for new kicks like speeding up the tempo (quite often not in the best interest of the music).

Another reason for some players to play things (to) fast seems to be lack of expressive skills. If you have nothing to tell all that remains is playing it faster. If on the other hand you have a lot to tell/express you also need a bit more time to do so. That's why Manolo Franco's superb soleares variations didn't work at "normal" speed, he simply had to much to tell in to little time :-).

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2014 14:34:18

Ricardo

Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to Erik van Goch)

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2014 14:41:57

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to mark indigo)

Why? Sounds like of sense to me. ( Seeking new kick in tempo / without then keeping sonority.)

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2014 15:02:23

Grisha

Posts: 1263
Joined: Mar. 17 2005

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to mark indigo)

You can draw parallels between musical performance and human narration. Would you like every actor to speak clearly with beautiful voice and great diction at all times?

Also, I would like to say a couple of words about picado... I think it only matters to guitarists and is solely appreciated by them. To the general public melodies, harmonies and dynamics are way more important, and rasgueado, alzapua, tremolo and such usually impress the audience way more.

I can't stand many of contemporary recordings that overuse picado. If these picado monsters use it for effect, then it would be much more effective to only use it once or twice in a piece, as a climax.

And why should all flamenco players use index and middle fingers to play picado? You use picado as a musical line or rhythmical figure, right? Then why not use 3 fingers to play it? I say, if you can get the same sound as with 2 fingers... go for it! There is no cheating when you put music above technique.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2014 18:39:47

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to Grisha)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grisha

You can draw parallels between musical performance and human narration. Would you like every actor to speak clearly with beautiful voice and great diction at all times?

I downloaded an audiobook only to find that instead of being voiced by an actor it was rendered by a computer. But the voice was beautiful and only the recordings with the most pristine diction had survived the sampling process.

It was of course impossible to enjoy a moment of it.

I'm looking for sentances and paragraphs to convey meaning. Not sounds to convey mere words. I want broad strokes in long phrases and I also want hairpin changes of direction. Even barely imperceptible inflections can make all the difference, for me.

I had a dream last night that I was on an internet forum for actors where the most robotic performances were commended for the clarity of their diction despite the fact that these performers clearly had no understanding of nor opinions about the material they were reading.

And others, hapless enough to show a deep response to the text, were criticised for being inauthentic.

I guess they didn't much care about the spelling either. I suppose I should envy them their commitment.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2014 19:31:15

Grisha

Posts: 1263
Joined: Mar. 17 2005

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha

I'm looking for sentances and paragraphs to convey meaning. Not sounds to convey mere words. I want broad strokes in long phrases and I also want hairpin changes of direction. Even barely imperceptible inflections can make all the difference, for me.

D.

Exactly my feelings...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2014 19:39:45

Ricardo

Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to mark indigo)

umm, people are NOT robots. Striving for excellence and perfection should be comendable, not a trait open for wannabe critics to write off performances that are otherwise way out of the realm of comprehension.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2014 20:05:48

Mark2

Posts: 1872
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to Grisha)

I can't discount your experience since your picado is so good, but when listening to recordings and seeing top artists like Paco and Vicente, it's pretty clear there is a reaction in the audience when a player does a fast solid picado that is also musically relevant. My opinion is that it remains the most anticipated technique and the most appreciated, but only when it's surrounded by good music played by a good musician. I agree it's often overused and becomes less effective. Would you say that playing fast lines with a pick has the same musical value as with fingers? Maybe it's just guitar players, but for me fast lines with a pick are done all the time by thousands of players, some more musical than others, but picado has a different sound and that makes a huge difference to me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grisha

You can draw parallels between musical performance and human narration. Would you like every actor to speak clearly with beautiful voice and great diction at all times?

Also, I would like to say a couple of words about picado... I think it only matters to guitarists and is solely appreciated by them. To the general public melodies, harmonies and dynamics are way more important, and rasgueado, alzapua, tremolo and such usually impress the audience way more.

I can't stand many of contemporary recordings that overuse picado. If these picado monsters use it for effect, then it would be much more effective to only use it once or twice in a piece, as a climax.

And why should all flamenco players use index and middle fingers to play picado? You use picado as a musical line or rhythmical figure, right? Then why not use 3 fingers to play it? I say, if you can get the same sound as with 2 fingers... go for it! There is no cheating when you put music above technique.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2014 20:36:48

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to Mark2)

Mark, when I saw Grisha play here in Tempe, I sat next to the "A-list" gigger guitarist here in town. When G came out, he said "let's hear some im!" Several times he said, not quietly, "His picado is like a woman's ass, I never get tired of it." He didn't seem to notice or care that a lady and her two pre-teen daughters were sitting directly in front of us.

The audience was used to standard CG fare and they enjoyed G as a breath of fresh air. I heard some lady marvel that G made music fun. I don't know if they liked his picado or rasgueado more. Speaking as a picado-geek, it was definitely the most impressive picado performance I have witnessed live and was a thrill!

_____________________________

Connect with me on Facebook, all the cool kids are doing it.
https://www.facebook.com/migueldemariaZ

Arizona Wedding Music Guitar

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2014 20:44:17

Mark2

Posts: 1872
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Hey Miguel,
no doubt guitarists are impressed by the things they themselves can't do, or can't do as well. I remember seeing Larry Carlton at his peak and between songs he ran some scales very fast. There was an audible reaction, and he said "You guys just want to see me practice!" But as they say "Recordings don't lie" Listen to Paco live at the teatro de real. Monster picado and you hear the crowd react. I'm assuming it's not JUST guitar players who love picado done well. Same at the concerts I've been to of Paco and Vicente. But, I have to admit I've never actually asked a non player which parts of the program they liked the most. I suppose it could be just the guitarists reacting to the monster picados, but I don't think so.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria

Mark, when I saw Grisha play here in Tempe, I sat next to the "A-list" gigger guitarist here in town. When G came out, he said "let's hear some im!" Several times he said, not quietly, "His picado is like a woman's ass, I never get tired of it." He didn't seem to notice or care that a lady and her two pre-teen daughters were sitting directly in front of us.

The audience was used to standard CG fare and they enjoyed G as a breath of fresh air. I heard some lady marvel that G made music fun. I don't know if they liked his picado or rasgueado more. Speaking as a picado-geek, it was definitely the most impressive picado performance I have witnessed live and was a thrill!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2014 21:03:06

Grisha

Posts: 1263
Joined: Mar. 17 2005

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to mark indigo)

General non-guitarist public doesn't know how difficult it is to play picado. My musician friends that don't play guitar never noticed I can play scales really fast, because in their instruments it is easy. General public only can judge by the sound of technique, and rasgueado invariably sounds more impressive to them. All the ahhs and ohhs come from guitarists in the audience or just knowledgeable people.

My main issue is with overuse of picado. It does not excite me anymore. If you have killer picado technique, make it special and unleash it only on special occasions. Watch the recent Al and Paco video where they play Sundance together. Notice how Al invites Paco to play fast from the very start and Paco resists and plays melodies until the very end, when he suddenly explodes in high-energy picado. Notice how the public (guitarists) react. Now, THAT's good use of picado. See, Paco understands, and the proof is his Cositas buenas album.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2014 22:13:02

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to Grisha)

I'm depressed that we are back to picado.

Let's judge actors by how loud their voice is.

Or maybe have a TV competition where imbeciles talk about high notes to karaoke singers.

And the craft of building musicianship is never ever ever discussed.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2014 22:21:05

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

I had a dream last night that I was on an internet forum for actors where the most robotic performances were commended for the clarity of their diction despite the fact that these performers clearly had no understanding of nor opinions about the material they were reading.

And others, hapless enough to show a deep response to the text, were criticised for being inauthentic.

It has been said that Frank Sinatra's performances were more musical than say an opera singer as his voice was amplified and he did not have to project to the last row. I well remember a Broadway production of Applause with Lauren Bacall and though seated in the peanut gallery, my back against the back wall of the theatre, I could hear every syllable from Lauren but had trouble with all the other cast. It was not nuanced as can be understood. Likewise in the hey day of Hollywood films were produced in sound stages with perfect recording equipment and the actors were trained to emote clearly their lines which were strictly followed. Then came Brando and method acting and a more realistic production of how people really talk. Now we have DV cameras and films that emphasize the visual aspects of life over verbal communication which not having to transmit a narrative brings one closer to what life is really like. The goal is to transmit joie de vivre through spontaneous communication. If some imprecision results that is not detrimental to the emotional connection.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2014 22:22:28

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus

. If some imprecision results that is not detrimental to the emotional connection.

On the contrary. If the results are imprecise then the effect diminished.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2014 22:26:15

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

On the contrary. If the results are imprecise then the effect diminished.

well ok, you either didn't follow my argument or didn't understand it or we must agree to dsagree

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2014 22:38:24

Mark2

Posts: 1872
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to guitarbuddha)

Don't be depressed. Good picado is simply part of good flamenco guitar playing. It's part of solid musicianship. The problem is it's so hard. So people sometimes try to diminish it's importance. I don't think aficionados rate guitarists on their picado. I think it's more about their ability to support singers and dancers, and as soloists, their ability to create beautiful passages and compositions within the tradition. But picado has always been part of that. If you listen to Ramon era players, many had really good picado.
Personally my picado is really inconsistent and wanting. Some days it's almost at a decent level, most days it isn't. By contrast, I never practice with a pick but a few weeks ago I bought a jazz guitar and a few days later I was playing the head to Joy Spring almost as well as when I learned it more than 30 years ago. I told my wife once how frustrating that was. She said hell, if I tried something for 30 years and it still didn't happen, I'd quit...............but I'm like Jim Car
ey in "Dumb and Dumber" where the girl says he's got a one in a million chance to be with her and he goes "So your saying there's a chance!"

quote:

ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha

I'm depressed that we are back to picado.

Let's judge actors by how loud their voice is.

Or maybe have a TV competition where imbeciles talk about high notes to karaoke singers.

And the craft of building musicianship is never ever ever discussed.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2014 23:03:48

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to mark indigo)

Picado is a bravdo display not a musical one. it's quien es mas macho with the picado. amusing but pointless.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2014 23:34:05

Ricardo

Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus

Picado is a bravdo display not a musical one. it's quien es mas macho with the picado. amusing but pointless.

oh lord.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 20 2014 0:38:31

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to mark indigo)

LOLOL Mi picado es mas grande que tuyo! Lolol

_____________________________

\m/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 20 2014 1:05:33

Page: << < 3 4 [5] 6 7 > >>

All Forums >>Discussions >>General >>

Page: << < 3 4 [5] 6 7 > >>

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

9.399414E-02 secs.