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RE: Juan Martin vs PdL
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Mark2
Posts: 1877
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Ricardo)
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late to the party---Paco vs Juan= Godzilla vs. my 15 year old bichon frise I love the guy's post-he's wrong about everything. I've also met J. Martin, and seen him play. A buddy of mine used to live in Spain and study there. His teacher, commenting about Paco Pena said something like it was embarrassing that the guy could get gigs. I consider Pena a very solid player in his style, but he suffered from what some other expat Spainards did-a style frozen at the time they left the source. Be it by choice or not, it is what it is. I can only wonder what pros in Spain would have to say about J. Martin, but I think if they were being candid, it would not be flattering. that he compiled a bunch of traditional material into a method book or three does not remotely put him in the company of the top players, or for that fact, the weaker ones. This wouldn't be an issue if he was unknown, but since he has a career as a performing artist, it's inevitable that he is compared to others in the field. The comparisons are not to his advantage. I don't know where he was born but even guys of the era his playing is drawn from leave him far in the rearview mirror in terms of accomplishment and ability IMO. quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo I was having a discussion on a non-flamenco (but) music related board and got on the topic of Paco with some guy on there. Just thought I'd share this guys comments about Juan Martin vs PdL, since Mr Martin can be a hot topic at times: quote:
Well, although I'm not a musician , I know something about flamenco, and although he also did some pop records with electric instruments backing him (like Paco has done), Juan Martin seems to me to be far more of a flamenco purist. The purists of flamenco music (or so I've heard) often have a higher regard for Juan than Paco, even if he is less famous. Even when Juan has experimented with marrying it with other things, like ancient arabic music, or composed lengthy suites of tunes, he has kept the music to a strict flamenco form. To my ears, even when Paco plays guitar according to a strict flamenco form, the way he uses backing musicians often makes the music not 'feel' like flamenco at all and, therefore, it can sound soulless and the whole point of the music is gone. Juan has very rarely been guilty of that sin ('Through a Moving Window', recorded 1988, would be his cardinal offence!) and his playing seems to play more attention to the 'storytelling quality' which is fundamental to all forms of flamenco expression, guitar playing, singing etc. etc. I don't think I underrate Paco. I have several of his records, including a few old ones, and I think highly of him. My feeling as to why Paco hasn't done as much to expand the horizons of flamenco music as Juan is that Juan not only accepts the idea of flamenco as a way of life, but has studied the culture to such a degree, he seems able to raise flamenco musical expression to new artistic heights. Witness his Andalucian Suites album of 1990, or even the old Solo Album of 1985...they're like some pure flamenco poetry. Paco may have been the first to popularize rhumbas and Latin American forms in flamenco, but I've yet to hear something from him that has the same level of musical sensitivity to it as what Juan has done on recordings like these. To my ears, Juan has a greater capacity for expression on the guitar, and can play with finesse as well as he can with passion. But, as you say, this is largely a question of likes/dislikes... Just thought I'd share someone's point of view that is not really a flamenco guitar aficionado or student. I disagree with the guy of course! But no one can deny that Juan Martin has had a strong influence on the listening public. Ricardo
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Date Dec. 13 2012 17:36:30
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to mcspookster)
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quote:
The only people who would think his mediocrity is "the real thing" are those who discovered JM and then stopped there. Again, I doubt many do. Most will go on, discover other flamenco artists and support them For everyone who was introduced to flamenco by JM and then did go further and discover other artists, that's great, and I'm not saying those people don't exist, because I know there are plenty of you! And yes, I agree, along with the teaching stuff, that's where he is good for flamenco. But that's not most of his audience, that's probably only a minority. I think most of the people at the shows I've seen are exactly those people who take their one flamenco trip a year to a JM show. Maybe if they got a chance to see someone else for a change it would inspire them to go further... And a lot of those venues he plays won't take any other flamenco. Friend of mine wanted to bring over some young artists she met in Jerez, contacted local venue, and they said, "oh no, we have JM" And to me, that is also a case where he is not so good for flamenco. I wasn't introduced to flamenco by JM, so I don't feel obliged to credit him for that. (I wanna put a smiley here but I can't figure out which one.....)
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Date Dec. 14 2012 13:52:26
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Leñador)
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quote:
where I'm at nobody knows who Juan Martin is..... When I tell random people that I'm learning flamenco their only response is "Oh yeah, I love Paco de Lucia". i had to laugh at this, 'cos in the UK it's completely the freakin opposite, you tell someone you're into flamenco, and chances are they will say, "oh yeah, i saw JM and it was amaaaaazin!" and they haven't heard of Paco de Lucia (or anyone else) it's tough..... do i say nothing.... or do i say.... i have unwittingly upset a few people, and often just sort of mumble something "hmmm... glad you enjoyed it...." for a quiet life.... JM is pretty much the only one who goes around the small theatres and arts centres etc. regularly, every year or two.... apart from the group "Jaleo". There are some artists resident in London, some stay, some come and go, some of them are really good, and occasionally they tour or perform other places around the country. I would like to see more like this.
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Date Dec. 14 2012 16:11:47
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Morante)
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quote:
Why not bash PdL instead? this is bashing? quote:
Juan Martin. Nice to hear the positive comments about him being a great ambassador for flamenco for his educational/learning stuff, yes, no doubt quote:
For everyone who was introduced to flamenco by JM and then did go further and discover other artists, that's great, and I'm not saying those people don't exist, because I know there are plenty of you! And yes, I agree, along with the teaching stuff, that's where he is good for flamenco. quote:
quote: To me he´s just a musicians doing his show and he has the right to do so just like anyone else. I agree with this too (I'm not trying to get him banned or anything!) I don't think it's bashing.... but I'm not gushing with unequivocal praise. I'm trying to give credit where I think it's due, give information which I have good reason to believe is true, and criticise what I think is of dubious quality or worth. Feel free to disagree. If you can explain why you disagree I might learn something, and if you give me sufficient reason to, I will change my mind!
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Date Dec. 14 2012 17:07:19
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RTC
Posts: 667
Joined: Aug. 20 2008
From: DFW Area, Texas
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RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Florian)
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quote:
I agree with both , I used to think that Jm devaluates it too (but now i realize it was the kid in me talking...like who is stronger, who's better, who's faster.. ...or who would win in a fight between Van Damme and Arnold type of thing lol) who cares... ...hes just doing his thing...i think there's room for everyone to get their respect I think a lot more people than would like to admit started out with his book like his music or not he has done a good instructional book for guitar beginners, i still think its the best planned out book that moves in a natural way through palos and techniques used and explanations, using the traditional characteristical falsetas, escobillas etc.. but simplified for the beginner student without losing the melody, i think there is something to respect there weather he did it because thats all he could do or because he planned it for the beginner...it dosent confuse too much someone that wants to start learning, it eases one in with accessible stuff thats not impossible...its a good basic setup in the right direction...the rest its up to the individual...to explore deeper..one cant blame him or have negative feelings because after hes learned a couple of things...now he thinks JM was too easy...a beginner book should be doable and accessible there are about a million better guitarists then him ...but his book is the first i recommend to any of my first time students looking to start learning ...cause it makes the most sense imo so this days it would be hypocritical of me to not offer any kind of respect. many other books have better content but are poorly planned, like lines upon lines of tablature or a million variations examples ...and you get to the end and still cant play one palo or understand the structure or on page 8 in the tab its asking for a technique that hasn't even been covered in the book yet X2
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Date Dec. 15 2012 2:28:38
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