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RE: Which factories make guitars for famous luthiers?
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Haithamflamenco
Posts: 927
Joined: Mar. 6 2007
From: Bahrain
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 RE: Which factories make guitars for... (in reply to anthony32)
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1 or 2 guitars from 10 are good in factory making guitars,
most of them the bridge bone need to be lowered,
cordoba f7 have a snake neck, it will not stop moving, that why they added the truss rod,
some gutiars from alhambra and cordoba the top start to bend down, bracing system start to unglued from the back,
some classical from the same manfucture sounded better thaan flamenco, and lots of flamenco sounded like classical,
but, faster and cheaper and affordable,
ya
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Bahrain is my country and Andalucia is my dream
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Date Dec. 11 2013 9:52:35
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RobJe
Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK
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RE: Which factories make guitars for... (in reply to Morante)
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quote:
The Pozuelo guitar which I bought, though it proved to be badly made, sounded great and I played it for some years until I decided to buy a good guitar. But a Conde, never! In fact, though I have played many, I have only played two good ones.
Strangely, I find myself writing to extol the virtues of the Conde Hermanos of the 1960s. They were not outsourcing to Valencia. They had a factory of their own in Calle Guitarras (off Calle Santiago Maganto, Pozuelo de Alarcón). You can see the remains of it today.
Different models from the factory were designated by numbers but these were not written on the Pozuela label. A lot of them went for export and some had dealer labels stuck on top of the original – for example Locker’s in Philadelphia “Importers of World Famous Guitars”.
I bought a Ramirez in the 60s which I liked very much (and still do). However I played with a lot of guitarists who had cheaper model Pozuela guitars. The finish flaked off easily, necks started to warp, cracks appeared BUT they were the real deal for flamenco – obviously made by someone who knew how a flamenco guitar should feel. You could really learn to play properly on these guitars. I had a slight feeling of envy. I sometimes feel that the beginner lacks this kind of support today – there are really cheap factory guitars around but while over-engineered laminated timber guitars might not crack or warp, they won’t make your pulse race.
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Date Dec. 11 2013 15:23:36
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3431
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Which factories make guitars for... (in reply to Arash)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Arash
quote:
ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan
An excellent point. What I found shady about the old Gravina 7 shop was that they would sell the "Valencia tank" to the tourist for the top price,
RNJ
I can guaranty you that if the "tourists" wanted to buy the "valencia tank" in any of those other shops all around spain, none of the shop owners would say "no, i don't sell this to you, give me back my valencia tank" 
In fact, in Spain I only ever bought guitars in Madrid, so I don't know what practices were elsewhere.
Still, the shop owner could have said, "Ah, if you like this guitar, I can give your a discount…". And the shop owner need not say enthusiastically but dishonestly, "this is our top model, the finest guitar you can buy." If the tourist handled the "tank" carefully, he could be shown a better guitar.
In downtown Madrid, at the shops of Ramirez, Contreras, Bernabe, Manzanero, Rozas, Camacho or Manuel Rodriguez Sr while he still had his shop in Calle Hortaleza, they would hand you a first class guitar if you asked to play one. A senior member of the staff, perhaps the Maestro himself, would take you to a separate room, and watch very closely while you tuned up and played. All the shops mentioned carried flamencas, with golpeadores.
I have no idea what Contreras or Manzanero would have done, but if you had even acted like you would do a golpe on a classical Ramirez 1a or a Bernabe, the staff member would have ripped the guitar out of your hands and given you a stiff lecture. A second offense would likely have gotten you kicked out of the shop.
If you asked for a guitar in a certain price range, you were shown one. At Bernabe's shop in Cuchilleros 8 just off the Plaza Mayor, there were student model instruments hanging on the wall with price tags. You could walk in, take one down, sit in a chair and try it out. Someone would watch, but if you acted reasonably, they might not even speak to you, until you took the instrument to the counter and started the conversation.
The practices at the Gravina 7 shop stood out in contrast to the other Madrid shops. I visited each several times over the years, except only once to Camacho.
At Contreras, in the Calle Mayor near the Royal Palace, I saw a very ill-dressed man with broken shoes come in off the street with a beat up guitar in a shabby cardboard case, and ask how to tune it. Contreras's niece worked behind the counter before she went off to Juilliard to study 'cello. She spent at least fifteen minutes explaining patiently, demonstrating, and supervising while the man tried it himself.
The last time I saw Contreras Sr was in 1991. He had lost an eye to the illness that finally took him, but he was back in the shop assisting customers, as friendly, courteous and helpful as ever. As I left his niece told me she would soon be off to Juilliard. I congratulated her, and wished her luck. She said she was looking forward to it, but then, with tears in her eyes she said she would miss her uncle. I said that I would, too.
RNJ
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Date Dec. 11 2013 20:39:46
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Anders Eliasson
Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
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RE: Which factories make guitars for... (in reply to Arash)
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quote:
If the tourist handled the "tank" carefully, he could be shown a better guitar.
Thats exactly it works and nothing wrong with that. And its not only tourists that should be treated like that. When I have visitors in my workshop, they get to play my beater guitar (#4). I tell them that its not for sale, but that I would like to know what they think about the guitar.
While playing that guitar, I check out their playing and if they can "control themselves" I will let them try another guitar if they say that they will be very carefull. and if they cant "control themselves", I tell them that I have nothing for sale. Or maybe (if the person seems to be serious) I will play another guitar myself , say the price and tell them that they can try it if they are truly serious.
It may sound a bit tough, but 99% of my Spanish visitors will always try to convince me to sell them a 3000,-€ guitar for 1000,-€ (thats culture) I´m so tired of that that I normally just tell them kindly to leave my workshop and my house and stay away untill they have learnt to respect me and my craft. Things are that they would never try to do that if they were to buy a new Conde from a shop.
A parallel story that I was told years ago:
One of the old Ramirez actually decided which guitar the possible client could buy. If he/she wasnt good enough, then the best guitar wasnt for sale. Maybe its just another way of doing what has always been done: That you have to prove yourself before you get the chance of playing the really good guitars.
I actually like this way of doing things. Its so much agains what is going on in the rest of the world, where money gives you acces to whatever.
At the same time, I have to admit that if someone (this is hypothetical) comes to my workshop and directly puts the money on the table, then I will allow them to buy whatever instrument I have except my beater guitar and my personal fiddle. I have to admit to myself that the game is also about survival and not only idealism and love of the craft and art. 
_____________________________
Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
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Date Dec. 12 2013 7:25:33
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Ricardo
Posts: 14837
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Which factories make guitars for... (in reply to anthony32)
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Just some perspective, not to cause problems, but the general tone here is that luthier hand made instruments tend to be "perfect" in everyway, and big name makers that might outsource act more like "dealers" in the sense the are trying to unload crap on fools with money.
Simple truth is there are duds out there, even made romantically by hand by a master. I don't care whose name it is, I have seen and been surprised by several. Anybody with a dud guitar will know it as top players repeatedly point out it's flaws and then what? Firewood? Nah, you can unload it on a non player or collector and everybody is happy. If conde has been ripping pros off since the 60's, don't you think the bad rep would have killed the subsequent generation of "builders"?
The other simple truth is that one guy's lemon is another guy's dream. I have seen the "valencia tank" in the hands of a decent player that simply loved that piece of crap. I mean REALLY loved her....so .... it's taste. Now PRICE tag is something else. Shall we price every guitar EXACTLY the same? Of course not. What I see is the better guitars are not orders of magnitude better, but, those small details become like heroin to a junky...and worth all the effort or price. And on we go with our pieces of wood. At this point even "romantic handmade artisan craftmanship" is marketing as much as label or headstock design. "Factory" has all negative connotation on this foro and to many enthusiasts, but hate to say the truth, a lot of those cheap things sound more "flamenco" than well intended hand made guitars. They got a formula that works and flamencos are NOT looking for innovation, but rather, tradition, and that means playability, sound, and looks.
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Date Jan. 28 2014 21:28:45
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