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Posts: 4516
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
RE: Which factories make guitars for... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan
An excellent point. What I found shady about the old Gravina 7 shop was that they would sell the "Valencia tank" to the tourist for the top price,
RNJ
I can guaranty you that if the "tourists" wanted to buy the "valencia tank" in any of those other shops all around spain, none of the shop owners would say "no, i don't sell this to you, give me back my valencia tank"
Also there is another thing: i have seen people supposedly identifying a guitar as a "crap guitar", which i personally found to be SuperB (and vice versa, some guitars which i personally found to be bad were amazing guitars for others). And this is true for almost everyone. Of course there are minimum standards regarding workmanship which should always be met. Warped necks and such things are simply unacceptable, no matter which price we talk about.
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: Which factories make guitars for... (in reply to Haithamflamenco)
Man, I love my Cordoba! It's half glue. I once dropped it on the ground, and the ground broke. I played for 3 hours a couple days ago in 50 degree weather in the sun. The poor guitar was probably half 50 F and half 90. It sounds like a toy acoustically, but plugged in with major EQ and a touch of reverb, not bad at all. I've probably played 600 gigs on that thing and it has given me no problems. So factory guitars can have their place. Thank you Don Cordoba.
RE: Which factories make guitars for... (in reply to anthony32)
It would be good to have the truth exposed, but such is the variety of practices and transparency (or lack of), it would be hard to achieve.
This variety includes • Works alone • Has a helper or apprentice • Has a small team of builders • Has a factory • Buys pre-formed guitar parts • Commissions guitars to be made elsewhere (specifying cosmetic and/or construction details) • Will buy and re-label guitars from anyone as long as the price is right • Honestly describes who makes guitars and where • Doesn’t ever mention the above • Lies about the above
It probably doesn’t matter to professional guitarists – they know the score. We might have little sympathy for collectors – they should do their research. It does matter for a beginner needing a guitar that will help in their playing development at a reasonable price. However it matters most to honest luthiers who lose out by dodgy practices.
There is also a knock on effect in the used market. I have seen outrageous prices asked for entry level guitars that just happen to have a “famous” name on the label.
Does the foro help? Can anthony32 achieve his aim? Yes and no. The foro is a source of useful insights into what goes on in the world of luthiery and guitar dealing but it is also full of incorrect and unsupported claims – even in this thread!
Posts: 4516
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
RE: Which factories make guitars for... (in reply to Arash)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
Man, I love my Cordoba! It's half glue. I once dropped it on the ground, and the ground broke. I played for 3 hours a couple days ago in 50 degree weather in the sun. The poor guitar was probably half 50 F and half 90. It sounds like a toy acoustically, but plugged in with major EQ and a touch of reverb, not bad at all. I've probably played 600 gigs on that thing and it has given me no problems. So factory guitars can have their place. Thank you Don Cordoba.
ts ts ts ....And then there is my flamingo guitar with blatant ramirez headstock copy and fake "Rodriguez" label, and to make it even more fake, i signed it myself ..... those valencia tanks are like french polished barby dolls in comparison to her. You can use her as a baseball bat and it wont bother her at all, very solid piece of wood actually. One day i will use her as firewood but not today! (i wonder if she would even survive fire! she is so wet)
RE: Which factories make guitars for... (in reply to Morante)
quote:
The Pozuelo guitar which I bought, though it proved to be badly made, sounded great and I played it for some years until I decided to buy a good guitar. But a Conde, never! In fact, though I have played many, I have only played two good ones.
Strangely, I find myself writing to extol the virtues of the Conde Hermanos of the 1960s. They were not outsourcing to Valencia. They had a factory of their own in Calle Guitarras (off Calle Santiago Maganto, Pozuelo de Alarcón). You can see the remains of it today.
Different models from the factory were designated by numbers but these were not written on the Pozuela label. A lot of them went for export and some had dealer labels stuck on top of the original – for example Locker’s in Philadelphia “Importers of World Famous Guitars”.
I bought a Ramirez in the 60s which I liked very much (and still do). However I played with a lot of guitarists who had cheaper model Pozuela guitars. The finish flaked off easily, necks started to warp, cracks appeared BUT they were the real deal for flamenco – obviously made by someone who knew how a flamenco guitar should feel. You could really learn to play properly on these guitars. I had a slight feeling of envy. I sometimes feel that the beginner lacks this kind of support today – there are really cheap factory guitars around but while over-engineered laminated timber guitars might not crack or warp, they won’t make your pulse race.
RE: Which factories make guitars for... (in reply to RobJe)
quote:
Different models from the factory were designated by numbers but these were not written on the Pozuela label. A lot of them went for export and some had dealer labels stuck on top of the original – for example Locker’s in Philadelphia “Importers of World Famous Guitars”.
Strangely enough I bought one of Sydney Locker's Conde Hermanos guitars back in the early 60's. He had two labels that I knew of...Conde Hermanos, and Sobrinos de Domingo Esteso, which was generally made by the brother to where the Conde model was made by the apprentices. It cost me $190 with case and shipped. It was solidly made but not much tonal quality. That got me to my next guitar which was a pre-owned 1958 Ramirez flamenco, which turned out to be a cannon after I sanded the nail marks out of the top
I resold that guitar and financed my short trip to Spain in 1965.
Posts: 3446
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: Which factories make guitars for... (in reply to Arash)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Arash
quote:
ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan
An excellent point. What I found shady about the old Gravina 7 shop was that they would sell the "Valencia tank" to the tourist for the top price,
RNJ
I can guaranty you that if the "tourists" wanted to buy the "valencia tank" in any of those other shops all around spain, none of the shop owners would say "no, i don't sell this to you, give me back my valencia tank"
In fact, in Spain I only ever bought guitars in Madrid, so I don't know what practices were elsewhere.
Still, the shop owner could have said, "Ah, if you like this guitar, I can give your a discount…". And the shop owner need not say enthusiastically but dishonestly, "this is our top model, the finest guitar you can buy." If the tourist handled the "tank" carefully, he could be shown a better guitar.
In downtown Madrid, at the shops of Ramirez, Contreras, Bernabe, Manzanero, Rozas, Camacho or Manuel Rodriguez Sr while he still had his shop in Calle Hortaleza, they would hand you a first class guitar if you asked to play one. A senior member of the staff, perhaps the Maestro himself, would take you to a separate room, and watch very closely while you tuned up and played. All the shops mentioned carried flamencas, with golpeadores.
I have no idea what Contreras or Manzanero would have done, but if you had even acted like you would do a golpe on a classical Ramirez 1a or a Bernabe, the staff member would have ripped the guitar out of your hands and given you a stiff lecture. A second offense would likely have gotten you kicked out of the shop.
If you asked for a guitar in a certain price range, you were shown one. At Bernabe's shop in Cuchilleros 8 just off the Plaza Mayor, there were student model instruments hanging on the wall with price tags. You could walk in, take one down, sit in a chair and try it out. Someone would watch, but if you acted reasonably, they might not even speak to you, until you took the instrument to the counter and started the conversation.
The practices at the Gravina 7 shop stood out in contrast to the other Madrid shops. I visited each several times over the years, except only once to Camacho.
At Contreras, in the Calle Mayor near the Royal Palace, I saw a very ill-dressed man with broken shoes come in off the street with a beat up guitar in a shabby cardboard case, and ask how to tune it. Contreras's niece worked behind the counter before she went off to Juilliard to study 'cello. She spent at least fifteen minutes explaining patiently, demonstrating, and supervising while the man tried it himself.
The last time I saw Contreras Sr was in 1991. He had lost an eye to the illness that finally took him, but he was back in the shop assisting customers, as friendly, courteous and helpful as ever. As I left his niece told me she would soon be off to Juilliard. I congratulated her, and wished her luck. She said she was looking forward to it, but then, with tears in her eyes she said she would miss her uncle. I said that I would, too.
RE: Which factories make guitars for... (in reply to Arash)
quote:
If the tourist handled the "tank" carefully, he could be shown a better guitar.
Thats exactly it works and nothing wrong with that. And its not only tourists that should be treated like that. When I have visitors in my workshop, they get to play my beater guitar (#4). I tell them that its not for sale, but that I would like to know what they think about the guitar. While playing that guitar, I check out their playing and if they can "control themselves" I will let them try another guitar if they say that they will be very carefull. and if they cant "control themselves", I tell them that I have nothing for sale. Or maybe (if the person seems to be serious) I will play another guitar myself , say the price and tell them that they can try it if they are truly serious. It may sound a bit tough, but 99% of my Spanish visitors will always try to convince me to sell them a 3000,-€ guitar for 1000,-€ (thats culture) I´m so tired of that that I normally just tell them kindly to leave my workshop and my house and stay away untill they have learnt to respect me and my craft. Things are that they would never try to do that if they were to buy a new Conde from a shop.
A parallel story that I was told years ago: One of the old Ramirez actually decided which guitar the possible client could buy. If he/she wasnt good enough, then the best guitar wasnt for sale. Maybe its just another way of doing what has always been done: That you have to prove yourself before you get the chance of playing the really good guitars.
I actually like this way of doing things. Its so much agains what is going on in the rest of the world, where money gives you acces to whatever. At the same time, I have to admit that if someone (this is hypothetical) comes to my workshop and directly puts the money on the table, then I will allow them to buy whatever instrument I have except my beater guitar and my personal fiddle. I have to admit to myself that the game is also about survival and not only idealism and love of the craft and art.
RE: Which factories make guitars for... (in reply to Arash)
My opinion is that once you become a factory style luthier, you should be upfront with your customers, but if you put your name on it, you better have been the only one to work on the sound box...other parts like the neck, the pegs, and all the aesthetic parts...i'd be ok with another person making. But the price should be lower than one made entirely by you.
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Which factories make guitars for... (in reply to anthony32)
Just some perspective, not to cause problems, but the general tone here is that luthier hand made instruments tend to be "perfect" in everyway, and big name makers that might outsource act more like "dealers" in the sense the are trying to unload crap on fools with money.
Simple truth is there are duds out there, even made romantically by hand by a master. I don't care whose name it is, I have seen and been surprised by several. Anybody with a dud guitar will know it as top players repeatedly point out it's flaws and then what? Firewood? Nah, you can unload it on a non player or collector and everybody is happy. If conde has been ripping pros off since the 60's, don't you think the bad rep would have killed the subsequent generation of "builders"?
The other simple truth is that one guy's lemon is another guy's dream. I have seen the "valencia tank" in the hands of a decent player that simply loved that piece of crap. I mean REALLY loved her....so .... it's taste. Now PRICE tag is something else. Shall we price every guitar EXACTLY the same? Of course not. What I see is the better guitars are not orders of magnitude better, but, those small details become like heroin to a junky...and worth all the effort or price. And on we go with our pieces of wood. At this point even "romantic handmade artisan craftmanship" is marketing as much as label or headstock design. "Factory" has all negative connotation on this foro and to many enthusiasts, but hate to say the truth, a lot of those cheap things sound more "flamenco" than well intended hand made guitars. They got a formula that works and flamencos are NOT looking for innovation, but rather, tradition, and that means playability, sound, and looks.
RE: Which factories make guitars for... (in reply to Joan Maher)
quote:
Hi Ricardo can you tell me what factory is more flamenco than what luthier? Just for comparison?
Ayyyy, joder. This is far out. Maybe you should ask Ricardo to make a list of all guitar factorys and luthiers. Put them on a scale with the most flamenco on top and the least flamenco in the bottom. Then we wont have to discuss all this rubbish again and again and again. We can just look at the famous list and then say.... Ahhhhhhh, my guitar is more flamenco than yours. Óle y toma ya.
Besides, if you know Ricardo or his postings just a tiny wheeny little bit, you´ll know the answer of your question. (sorry Ricardo its nothing personal. It just involves your foro name. It could be someone elses.)
RE: Which factories make guitars for... (in reply to Arash)
I only see one problem: I think that misleading or lying to your clients is wrong and it hurts the reputation of the makers as a collective. This makes it a concern of mine. I have been threatened with lawyers for voicing this sort of opinion. The market for "handmade" instruments is different from the market for factory instruments. This is why it bothers me when the factory tries to make claims of luthier made instruments (examples of a factory having guitars signed by a person (real or ficticious) or when a maker puts a label on guitars he gets from a factory. It confuses the clients and muddies the waters. Ricardo might like some factory instruments more than some luthier instruments but that doesn't give anyone the right to defraud the client.
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