scales for rumba improvising

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mark74

Posts: 690
Joined: Jan. 26 2011

scales for rumba improvising

Are they generally phrygian dominant, phrygian modal and harmonic minor?

And also mostly in the keys of E major/E minor ,A major/ A minor and B minor and G minor?

I may have messed this up because I have no music theory

Is there a good comprehensive CD-book package and or website for developing the ability to improvise fluidly in rumba flamenca/ flamenco-pop...or is this really something best developed with teacher instruction?

I'm going to purchase pumping nylon, but I think this is just exercerises

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 23 2013 22:40:53

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: scales for rumba improvising (in reply to mark74)

Get a transcription to something you like. Pick your favourite sixteen bars. Learn a bar at a time and with each bar relate what is played to the chord for that bar.

This will help you learn about outlining harmony with a melody and a lot of the time that means playing the notes of the chord. If you think in terms of scales it could end up like chopped liver and one bar will be much like the rest. That's what makes 'shredding' incoherent musically.

For sure find a teacher. But make sure he can at least bluff through some of the stuff you like (slow is fine but he should have an understanding of the style).

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 23 2013 23:39:23

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: scales for rumba improvising (in reply to mark74)

Hmmm, D is right that chord tones (arpeggios) are better than scales, but I think licks are even better. Just learn a lot of licks/cliches and practice jamming them in the various chord progressions. It would not hurt at all to practice each lick in all 12 keys. Start with your 10 favorite rumbas, learn the progressions and licks. After that, you can work on adapting falsetas from other palos and trying to get them to work in rumbas. If you do this, you will not sound like these rock guys who get a nylon string guitar and **** around on a harmonic minor scale.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 24 2013 1:09:19

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: scales for rumba improvising (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria

Hmmm, D is right that chord tones (arpeggios) are better than scales, but I think licks are even better.

Quite true. I somehow got the idea that licks were a bad idea early on in my playing. Now I wonder what the hell I was thinking.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 24 2013 1:12:57

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: scales for rumba improvising (in reply to guitarbuddha)

Idealism. We're too old for that **** now!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 24 2013 2:14:25

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: scales for rumba improvising (in reply to mark74)

Yes, know your chords inside and out. Know where the 3rd, 7ths, and 9ths are.
Connect the dots between them, and your lines will always sound great.
However, its rediculous to think you'll just do this without first doing gobs
of transcribing first.

You want to produce melodies. Transcribe tons of great melodies by the greats.
Learn from them. Know your beat division up and down, stone cold.

Don't just collect a bag of licks. Any hack can do that.

Make melodies, and say something interesting.

TK

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 24 2013 6:07:29

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: scales for rumba improvising (in reply to guitarbuddha)

Why not use both chord tones and scales? Anyway it's very useful to understand the scales and chords completely for any player.

quote:

ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria

Hmmm, D is right that chord tones (arpeggios) are better than scales, but I think licks are even better.

Quite true. I somehow got the idea that licks were a bad idea early on in my playing. Now I wonder what the hell I was thinking.

D.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 24 2013 11:26:51

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: scales for rumba improvising (in reply to ToddK)

Licks may use chord tones and scale tones and chromatic notes and anything else.

You can transcribe licks.

You can incorporate fragments of melodies you like in licks.

You are free to compose licks. Not just finger patterns but short concise little melodies.

You will learn a lot about the construction of music if you learn how to use them and how to manipulate their rhythm.

D

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 24 2013 11:47:35

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
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From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: scales for rumba improvising (in reply to mark74)

Maybe the answer is all of the above (time being the scarce resource). But don't forget the transcription, learning melodies, "copping licks". That will keep you from sounding like Benise, and you do NOT want to sound like Benise!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 24 2013 15:26:38

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: scales for rumba improvising (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

And to practice improvising the youtube rumba tracks are great. Also good for practicing flamenco techniques

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 24 2013 15:36:36

mark74

Posts: 690
Joined: Jan. 26 2011

RE: scales for rumba improvising (in reply to tele)

Yes I use some of those. The one guy who posted here once and linked his backing tracks, thats precisely what I use, but because I don't know my scales I hit a lot of bad notes when warming up and have to slow down my speed to compensate for lack of knowledge of the fretboard...in other words my picado and left hand are more advanced than my knowledge and thats the situation I'm in

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 25 2013 20:15:14

mark74

Posts: 690
Joined: Jan. 26 2011

RE: scales for rumba improvising (in reply to ToddK)

Im trying to transcribe, but again my knowledge gaps hurt me.

For instance I was transcribing Un Hombre by Martin Regis and I was noticing that although I was able to reproduce the basic chord progression his voicings were different and that made all the difference in the world and for the life of me I can't get those voicings. In fact the chord progression is identical to Inspiration, but the voicings and strumming technique and tempo change it enough to make it different

Thank you for your responses, I think I'll eventually need a teacher if I wish to grow

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 25 2013 20:20:38

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: scales for rumba improvising (in reply to mark74)

quote:

you do NOT want to sound like Benise!

Why not?? Haven't you read his youtube comments?? He IS THE most amazing guitar player to have ever lived, hands down. He's a god among mortals! All will bow to his lovely locks!

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\m/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 25 2013 20:23:23

mark74

Posts: 690
Joined: Jan. 26 2011

RE: scales for rumba improvising (in reply to Leñador)

Benise is awesome...he can only have come from America...U.S.A! U.S.A!

Can you imagine Benise plaing in a taverna in Jerez !

I wonder what would happen

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 25 2013 20:28:44

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: scales for rumba improvising (in reply to mark74)

Transcribing is like lifting weights. You want to do something impressive and it is a tremendous struggle but it doesn't really make you stronger. Better to lift light weights with high reps for functional strength.

Tunes are the thing to transcribe. And if you can sing it and you are patient then you can find it on your instrument.

Better to play twinkle twinkle little star in c,a,g,e,d f and Bb till you get better at playing by ear in the moment than breaking your back on a really tricky bit of pyrotechnics and not really getting better at playing by ear at all.

Improvising is playing the tune you hear in your head. If you know the tune for sure then you can improve at playing by ear. Then when you try and play the tune in your head which is completely new and spontaneous you will have the skill to find it in the moment.

Or just mash up finger patterns like Al Di and three generations of imitators. Apparently that's good enough.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 25 2013 20:37:10

tele

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Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: scales for rumba improvising (in reply to mark74)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark74

Yes I use some of those. The one guy who posted here once and linked his backing tracks, thats precisely what I use, but because I don't know my scales I hit a lot of bad notes when warming up and have to slow down my speed to compensate for lack of knowledge of the fretboard...in other words my picado and left hand are more advanced than my knowledge and thats the situation I'm in

Knowing all the basic scales in every position takes just about a week or two to learn. take for example a look at the Aminor scale on a scale generator that shows the whole fretboard. For example if you use the same scale but use E as a base note you have e phrygian scale.
Knowing these (and later adding chromatic notes) can help you alot in every aspect of creating music and especially improvising and hitting the right notes to fit the melody you have in your head while playing backing track for example.

good link:
http://sixstringobsession.blogspot.com.es/2010/11/chord-tone-soloing-i-wish-someone-gave.html

also I think he has lesson on "complete fretboard scales"

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 25 2013 23:16:48

tele

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Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: scales for rumba improvising (in reply to tele)

in addition to me personally I am very uncomfortable thinking when improvising, which makes using chord note thinking almost impossible for me, instead I most often use chord notes automatically without thinking, however if I am going to play jazz with modulation and chords outside the "parent scale" of the song I am forced to think in chord notes that don't fit the basic scale. All thinking that's outside the melody during improvisation is a loss to my playing as it takes alot of concentration to play as desired, basically following the melody in your head when improvising

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 26 2013 17:52:23

guitarbuddha

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Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: scales for rumba improvising (in reply to tele)

Sing a melody over a playalong and transcribe it note for note.

You might learn about the difference between wanting what you get and getting what you want.

Simpler still play a tune that you like and if you don't notice any arpeggios popping out then...... well done.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 26 2013 18:21:57

guitarbuddha

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Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: scales for rumba improvising (in reply to guitarbuddha)

That was a pointlessly grumpy Tele but I definitely think you should give it a try.

Try and sing what you want to hear not what you think you can play.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 26 2013 22:35:37

Ricardo

Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: scales for rumba improvising (in reply to tele)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tele

in addition to me personally I am very uncomfortable thinking when improvising, which makes using chord note thinking almost impossible for me, instead I most often use chord notes automatically without thinking, however if I am going to play jazz with modulation and chords outside the "parent scale" of the song I am forced to think in chord notes that don't fit the basic scale. All thinking that's outside the melody during improvisation is a loss to my playing as it takes alot of concentration to play as desired, basically following the melody in your head when improvising

I recommend serious students to invest in Mclaughlin's DVD package....it is a complete course and can benefit ANY player that wants to improvise. It's pricey on line, but I just met him and saw him play a few months back, he was selling it for $50 bucks even...a ridiculous bargain. Any flamenco player that attempt the typical PDL inspired thing to improvise on rumbas rather than work out falsetas, would benefit IMO. We learn off the bat, jazz guys no matter how hi tech, have their "falseta bag" like any flamenco player. The purpose of their "falsetas" is not the same as flamenco, rather, "devices" that deal with stitching together tricky chord changes. A different discipline yet the modern flamencos have been doing this thing since Entre Dos Aguas hit the radio, yet they normally noodle until the fingers find something and don't even realize that it is simply "falsetas" again.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 26 2013 23:26:27

tele

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Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: scales for rumba improvising (in reply to guitarbuddha)

gb, is your point that utilizing arpeggios or chord notes is important to get the melody right, or something else?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 28 2013 11:15:38

guitarbuddha

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Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: scales for rumba improvising (in reply to tele)

Triad,add sixth, add ninth, add seventh, add fourth and flat sixth.

That gives you a three four five(pentatonic) six(beautiful scale, fourth always sounds rubbish stressed over a major tonic so why not miss it out0 and eight(octatonic or bebop scale) note scale to play with.

They all occur commonly in melody. They are the building blocks if you wish. Think of it like a mosaic, if you only use one tile then there can be no pattern and no picture. You can get something really beautiful and complex with two.

If you are moving from one chord to the next then something should change right ? Otherwise you are not spelling out the harmony. If you are playing around a seven note scale all the time then nothing changes and it all sounds like beef stew.

A lot of fusion stuff sounds like beef stew to me. Maybe because the one scale fits all short cut was taken.

D.

(Eg say you are cycling C to G7 and back. Over c this scale CDEGAB and over G GABDEF. If you only practice a major scale then you will need to think of avoid notes to stop your lines sounding like doggerel. Both these scales are in the major scale but if you haven't learned them you have to avoid the weak notes* (F and C ) respectively and you will most likely fail.

Anyway why restrict your options to painting with one colour ? Convince yourself by transcribing an actual melody.

D.

*You wont always want to avoid these notes but you'll know a lot more about melody if you have experimented with avoiding them.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 28 2013 11:38:12

tele

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Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: scales for rumba improvising (in reply to guitarbuddha)

I know there's no point using a scale that doesn't fit, my point is that when playing over chord progression with chords that belong to(for example) Amin scale I use that scale and choose the notes by feeling instead of analyzing and in case a chord that doesn't fit Aminor scale's notes pops up, I use the notes that are included in that chord, in addition to the amin notes(or exlude some of them instead). If I start to think more than play then my improvisation will sound like crap. Altough obviously if playing jazz there will be necessary to think alot at least in the beginning without experience

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 28 2013 15:15:45

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: scales for rumba improvising (in reply to tele)

Tele, I'm not much of an improvisor, but maybe knowing where the chord tones are is a fundamental thing that should be drilled until you do it by feel and don't have to think at all. Here is something that occurs to me--not advice to you, just an idea:

1. for every chord in the progression, learn where the tonic notes are in the range you are going to play
2. just mess around, noodle in the scale, and keep hitting those tonics, over and over. The tonics should land on a strong beat. do whatever you want, but bang those tonics like they're a cowbell!
3. after you are dead bored of this, add the 5th or the 3rd (your choice :), repeat, keep hitting that 3rd until you are bored of it!
4. on to the other of the 5th or 3rd and eventually 7th if you want to sound smooth and the 9th if you want to sound like Vicente ( :) )
5. Now your playing will feature chord tones on the beats. It will outline the arpeggios and sound good even without harmonic support. You will have been working out your own way and personality the whole time. When someone asks you why it sounds good, you'll say this--and they'll say they don't want to have to think about arpeggios when they're improvising!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 28 2013 15:35:34

guitarbuddha

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RE: scales for rumba improvising (in reply to tele)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tele

I .... choose the notes by feeling instead of analyzing

If I start to think more than play then my improvisation will sound like crap.

I think pretty much everyone can do that from day one. Of course what you are able to find will be a consequence of your preparation. Every teenager I have ever taught makes that same point and then proceeds to play exactly the same as the last one.

Part of improving is learning to streamline not only your technique but also your thinking. I pretty much just think about the structural chords when I am playing. Also I prepare to improvise by studying the piece. If I think C major I get all of the scales that I mentioned above for free because of the thinking I did in advance. With G another set. But really one thought. It requires a bit of mental hygiene. Kind a like putting shelves in a cupboard before filling it with stuff. So all my C stuff is on the C shelf so I think C and I can see all of my options. So one thought lots of answers. If I only ever improvise then I will not be learning much it is a bit like a sprinter who only ever races, he is clearly not doing his job.

Anyway, how did you get on transcribing your melody? Which tunes did you play in different keys,string sets and positions ? I would love to hear how you got on.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 28 2013 15:38:06

tele

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Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: scales for rumba improvising (in reply to guitarbuddha)

I guess we can end up saying everyone have their own way of playing over a melody. Personally I prefer the way of many flamencos which is sort of like making their own theory and playing with that, I just can't do that. I personally don't care analyzing my playing while I do it. If it makes my playing worse, so be it, it's just not for me. Besides in my opinion using too much chord notes makes soloing sound too predictable and boring, especially on more simple chrod progressions like am g f e which is the basic rumba.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 28 2013 18:46:42