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Start With Flamenco or An "Easier" Style?   You are logged in as Guest
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Quill

 

Posts: 46
Joined: Nov. 2 2013
 

Start With Flamenco or An "Easi... 
So I've been told by just a few people on both sides of the argument to just jump into flamenco or learn to 'play guitar' first before learning flamenco. What to do?

A few people have said flamenco is too difficult to learn before learning to play guitar, whatever that means. I'm really not sure, so I guess I should ask them.

On the other hand, the Skype teacher have told me lack of experience is no problem, and one teacher said it makes it easier on him because he won't have to change any bad habits.

Here's my thinking (and know I haven't played an instrument other than a year of flute in middle school thirty years ago) - I've heard that flamenco is played on a different scale than Western music. And I'm concerned that techniques from one style won't translate or will interfere with flamenco. And then there's the matter of buying more than one guitar if I try to 'learn guitar' first before learning flamenco.

So, what do y'all think.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 6 2013 23:15:42
 
chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010
 

RE: Start With Flamenco or An "... (in reply to Quill) 
In short - flamenco can be as easy as strumming a few chords or as difficult as playing both harmony and melody at once using different techniques.

Can you define what 'flamenco' means to you and what exactly you want to learn?

If I were you, I'd learn guitar and be 'influenced' by flamenco. People may tell you that playing flamenco requires some special techniques that aren't transferrable to other styles, but I think that just shows they have no imagination.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 6 2013 23:48:55
 
Quill

 

Posts: 46
Joined: Nov. 2 2013
 

RE: Start With Flamenco or An "... (in reply to Quill) 
I'd really like to do more than strum.

I'm willing to put in the time to really learn how to play. Even 2-4 years just to get to where I can play, though of course I'd like to play songs sooner than that.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2013 0:14:32
 
Quill

 

Posts: 46
Joined: Nov. 2 2013
 

RE: Start With Flamenco or An "... (in reply to Quill) 
Chester, strangely enough ,I wasn't concerned about transferring flamenco techniques to other styles (I think that would be cool!) so much as other styles' techniques interfering in flamenco. Learning flamenco, not pop or rock or jazz is my priority. I'm not sure why people are advising me to learn those styles first.

And is the Phrygian scale and Western scale confusing to those who learn both?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2013 0:31:37
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Start With Flamenco or An "... (in reply to Quill) 
If you learn flamenco you can play basically anything.

Just jump in, you're going to spend at least one year just strumming but you'll get there. Skype teacher is somewhat right about unlearning bad habits. I played for 10-15 years before flamenco and sometimes I still wonder in the long run if it was an advantage or a hinderance…….

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2013 0:41:08
 
n85ae

 

Posts: 877
Joined: Sep. 7 2006
 

RE: Start With Flamenco or An "... (in reply to Quill) 
You play with the guitar until you learn Flamenco, after that you play the guitar.

Jeff

quote:

If you learn flamenco you can play basically anything.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2013 1:24:21
 
Quill

 

Posts: 46
Joined: Nov. 2 2013
 

RE: Start With Flamenco or An "... (in reply to Quill) 
Thanks you guys, for the encouragement and the philosophy lesson. Lenador, I glad to learn that ther is a good reason to just go to flamenco from the get-go.

Jeff, I thought for a hot minute that you were playing with my head, then I thought, "Hmmm... okay!"
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2013 1:32:39
 
chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010
 

RE: Start With Flamenco or An "... (in reply to Quill) 
Quill, I'm concerned that you may not know what 'flamenco' is. Can you elaborate on what it is that you want to learn? What flamenco artists are you familiar with/listen to/wish to emulate?

quote:

And is the Phrygian scale and Western scale confusing to those who learn both?

There is no such thing as the 'western' scale. The Phrygian mode is part of the 12-tone system that is used by western music. There exist other systems with more tones, but they are pretty obscure (Indian classical music) and I wouldn't worry about them if I were you.

If you've never played guitar before, learn some chords and start strumming away (you are aware that strumming is a large part of guitar playing - especially flamenco?). Blues, Solea, House of the Rising sun, it doesn't matter much. You're going to suck at it at first.

quote:

If you learn flamenco you can play basically anything.

I doubt Tomatito can play in a neo-classical style like Jason Becker, or that Vicente can improvise over Giant Steps, or that Moraito could pull off a Bach fugue.

quote:

You play with the guitar until you learn Flamenco, after that you play the guitar.

So Hendrix was only playing 'with' the guitar?

Come on guys, I know this is a 'flamenco' forum, but let's not pretend that flamenco is the be-all end-all of music.

Unless you really think that, and in that case please accept my condolences.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2013 2:51:55
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Start With Flamenco or An "... (in reply to Quill) 
quote:

I doubt Tomatito can play in a neo-classical style like Jason Becker, or that Vicente can improvise over Giant Steps, or that Moraito could pull off a Bach fugue.


I'm sure easier then vice versa

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2013 3:03:02
 
n85ae

 

Posts: 877
Joined: Sep. 7 2006
 

RE: Start With Flamenco or An "... (in reply to Quill) 
Bad day today Chester? :)

Jeff
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2013 3:17:38
 
Quill

 

Posts: 46
Joined: Nov. 2 2013
 

RE: Start With Flamenco or An "... (in reply to Quill) 
Hi Chester,

I cannot define flamenco any more than I can define blues or R&B or classical. I don't know enough about music.

Why do I want to learn flamenco or what is my experience? Years ago I watched a performance on television. I was more entranced by the dancer than the guitarist at that time. In recent years I've been making good use of YouTube to watch many genres of musical performance, including flamenco. I like the sounds of the guitar in flamenco. I want to play flamenco because I find it an emotionally expressive activity, and I could entertain myself and one day possibly my friends and family. I want to practice a discipline, especially one which should keep my brain young from my middle years.



Chester, I'm beginning to feel I have to pass a test with you to justify my desire to play flamenco versus some other genre. I don't listen to much rock or pop anymore, at least for the past several years. Besides Adele occasionally, I don't listen to much new music at all. I don't want to learn to play those genres. I thought about hymns but I've been told hymns are extraordinarily difficult to play on guitar. R&B guitar seems to be rhythm with little melody (did I use the right word?) and just like rock and pop, the lyrics are not what I want in my mind. I hope flamenco lyrics aren't trashy but since I don't speak Spanish... I hear a lot of it is concerned with social justice and personal issues like the blues and folk music, and I like 70s Motown and folk because of that.

I'm not (yet) a flamenco connoisseur but everyone has to start someplace, yeah? .
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2013 5:44:20
 
Quill

 

Posts: 46
Joined: Nov. 2 2013
 

RE: Start With Flamenco or An "... (in reply to Quill) 
I will say I seem to enjoy traditional flamenco over Nuevo Flamenco. IT reminds of flamenco I heard as a child and teen.


I'm not so much into the jazzy new stuff for a couple reasons. One is that is sounds like the jazz, rumbas and bossa nova I'm totally burned out on because my mom listened to it day in and out for most of my life. I can appreciate jazz, but it bores me now. And I like the roughness or rawness of some old flamenco I heard. Not talking about lack of expertise so much as purposeful roughness, if that makes any sense. However, I'm big enough to admit to liking some songs of Rodrigo y Gabriela hybrid or not!

I'm beginning my second act, and I'm looking to do things I've been afraid to begin. Not so much bucket list as fun things I want to enjoy now rather than later or never.

PS - I'm not sure you guys know this but I'm a woman. Just in case my writing style or content is throwing you off. Like with all the emoticons.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2013 6:06:10
 
Arash

Posts: 4496
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Start With Flamenco or An "... (in reply to Quill) 
Good grief! why does everyone make a simple issue so complicated.

If you like flamenco, buy a flamenco guitar, find a good teacher or good online sources and start learning.

If you liked the dance, thats a good indication that you like the real stuff, so go for it.

And here are some videos to motivate you even more as a woman

Now stop posting and thinking too much and start practicing ;)















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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2013 6:49:01
 
z6

 

Posts: 225
Joined: Mar. 1 2011
 

RE: Start With Flamenco or An "... (in reply to Quill) 
Jump in.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2013 6:53:53
 
gerundino63

Posts: 1756
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Start With Flamenco or An "... (in reply to Quill) 
Quill,

Flamenco can be as easy as anything on the guitar.
If I where you with the knowledge I have now.
I would start with a solea.
Take a real easy falseta, a real easy strumming compas, and go from there.

If you are comfortable with that and have red about compas, rithm etc. And listen to a lot of solea you are studying now, take another falseta with another technique, another strumming on the compas part, and you find slowly your way in the Solea.

After that, take another palos you like and do the same.

This way you start to learn the guitar and flamenco at the same time.

There is a lot of stuff here and a lot of helpfull people, so if you doubt, you can read it here or ask.

But said this, the best thing you can do is taking a teacher who show you things.

Good luck with your new and exiting journey,

Peter.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2013 7:09:17
 
Derek Woulds

Posts: 30
Joined: Jun. 23 2011
From: Suffolk

RE: Start With Flamenco or An "... (in reply to Quill) 
Quill
I came to Flamenco late in life after years of playing rock guitar. Playing guitar for years in a different style has been of limited use when learning Flamenco. I have had to learn to use my fingers instead of a pick and to unlearn bad habits such as having the left hand thumb hanging over the fretboard. I think learning Flamenco guitar as a beginner will do little harm and will probably speed up the process of learning. Good luck and enjoy!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2013 10:37:19
 
marduk

Posts: 600
Joined: Feb. 3 2010
 

RE: Start With Flamenco or An "... (in reply to Quill) 
I would say learn flamenco... the music i learned and played in the past helped me to build decent rhythm, but was mostly stuff that i had to unlearn when i started learning flamenco techniques
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2013 10:40:28
 
Tomas

 

Posts: 22
Joined: Aug. 16 2013
 

RE: Start With Flamenco or An "... (in reply to Quill) 
Try to learn to play the music that inspires you the most. It's the inspiration that will keep you going and practicing.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2013 10:54:46
 
shaun

Posts: 176
Joined: May 11 2012
From: Edmonton, Canada

RE: Start With Flamenco or An "... (in reply to Quill) 
Flamenco, like any other style, is only as difficult as you make it. If you are going to start with a specific style, start with one that is going to keep you interested. In fact, only play what interests you. Otherwise, what's the point? Know your limits so that you don't get discouraged. Then, push those limits so that you continue to improve and grow as a musician.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2013 13:23:26
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3626
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Start With Flamenco or An "... (in reply to Quill) 
quote:

Start With Flamenco or An "Easier" Style?
you don't even need "3 chords" to play flamenco, you only need 2! what could be easier?


quote:

is the Phrygian scale and Western scale confusing to those who learn both?
no, if by "western scale" you mean major or minor scale, they are used in flamenco too (eg. alegrias, farruca), so you will learn major, minor and Phrygian, though Phrygian is arguably more important.

I played guitar for 10 years before flamenco, which I've played for at least 20 years. The things I did before flamenco, when I was younger, are the things I am probably best at in flamenco (in terms of technique), which also means that the things I didn't do are now my weaker points (technically).... some things are transferable, but the things you don't do you can't transfer.... so it's better from that point of view to start with flamenco if that's what you want to play.

Secondly it's better to go with what you want, so if you want to learn flamenco, there's no point learning something else "first" that you don't really want to do.... just go for what you want. good luck!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2013 13:56:45
 
rickm

 

Posts: 446
Joined: Jan. 23 2004
 

RE: Start With Flamenco or An "... (in reply to Quill) 
a friend is a shredder. you know 200 notes a second. I asked him why? and he said it makes me happy.
Play to what makes you happy. do you have to play exclusively flamenco? no. Part of guitar is getting the fingers to move in concert with the brain. all guitar helps with that. and there is no easy shortcut. Proficiency comes after hours and days and months of play. You cant force all you can do is work toward it. Enjoy yourself with yr instrument. the term labor of love comes to mind. peace out
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2013 15:59:15
 
Arash

Posts: 4496
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Start With Flamenco or An "... (in reply to mark indigo) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

3 chords" to play flamenco, you only need 2! what could be easier?



you don't even need any chord at all.
its called tapado.
flamenco is all about rythm ;)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2013 16:22:52
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3626
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Start With Flamenco or An "... (in reply to Quill) 
quote:

A few people have said flamenco is too difficult to learn before learning to play guitar, whatever that means. I'm really not sure, so I guess I should ask them.


my experience of hearing people say this is that what they mean is they think it's too difficult for them, or they don't really like it....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2013 16:42:03
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Start With Flamenco or An "... (in reply to Quill) 
It runs the gambit, flamenco can be as easy as strumming a couple chords and as difficult as Cepa Andaluza. I would say flamenco at its most difficult is harder then other guitar music on the planet.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2013 16:54:10
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Start With Flamenco or An "... (in reply to Quill) 
quote:

A few people have said flamenco is too difficult to learn before learning to play guitar


yeah thats what every one in Andalucia does ,,,,,learn something else first than change to flamenco ......of course not ....

if its just a whim that you have and dream of being a flamenco player in a few weeks and everything just falls into place ... well good luck with that ..

Most people learn flamenco because they cant help it ...it happens that you cant avoid it any more ...so you do what you want to do .. start playing flamenco ... ususally wrong ..with mistakes and out of compas ....(welcome to the foro , at that point )

this is something that you kinda have to do as well ..i dont think its harder or easier than any other type of music ..they all have there problems etc...

if you just want to experiment I would say it doesnt matter about a fantastic guitar yet , any nylon classical will do to get you going .. after a few years you will know if its time for a new guitar and how much you want to spend ...

There is a lot of easy stuff on you tube ....everyone is a teacher it seems ...just pick something that you think is your level ...
Dont worry about this western , Phrygian , flamenco scale harmony .. or whatever your thinking there , this is just complicating your life right now.

YOu learn to play by playing ....so go and play .....best advice I can give you ......HAVE FUN ....music is fun ...evn practice and learning should be fun ..enjoy it

I can find some easy stuff if you are really stuck and send it out ..........but its also on this site anyway ............

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2013 17:40:22
 
Quill

 

Posts: 46
Joined: Nov. 2 2013
 

RE: Start With Flamenco or An "... (in reply to Quill) 
Thank you, guys, for the advice to just plunge into the genre I want for inspiration, and the encouragement and reassurance that flamenco can be learned by new musicians.

As Arash said, Shut up and do it already!"

Thanks, y'all! I'm going to get started ASAP. I'm sure I'm going to ask a lot more questions along the way.

Any more advice or example are welcomed.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2013 18:46:47
 
Quill

 

Posts: 46
Joined: Nov. 2 2013
 

RE: Start With Flamenco or An "... (in reply to Quill) 
Arash,

Thanks for all the videos of all the flamenco women. I'll watch them later today when I get a moment.

Terri
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2013 20:57:08
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1789
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Start With Flamenco or An "... (in reply to Quill) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Quill

one teacher said it makes it easier on him because he won't have to change any bad habits.

It is indeed more easy to learn things correctly from the start then having to change bad habits or ways of playing that are not favored in flamenco. Especially the right hand is used very differently than other styles of guitar playing and when i picked up flamenco after playing the guitar for over 13 years i basically had to start all over again.

Flamenco can be studied/played as difficult/easy as your hands/brain allow, all one have to do is select material that fits your level of playing. A good teacher can coach/support your technical/musical/hand and brain development from making first contact with the instrument/music up to professional levels of playing.
I started with playing open strings for weeks, gradually adding more fingers, techniques and compas knowledge over time in very very small steps. It took me an additional 4 years before i could play at more or less decent levels.

You'll find some of these "step by step" developments in my post about technique study and how to avoid/implement new techniques in the music you study/play (notice i mean my first post on that page, not the second one responding on a question).

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=212197&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=order&tmode=&smode=&s=#225439
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 10 2013 11:42:49
 
Quill

 

Posts: 46
Joined: Nov. 2 2013
 

RE: Start With Flamenco or An "... (in reply to Quill) 
Thanks, Erik. It's good to know there's value in *not* having learned guitar in past decades.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 11 2013 2:50:03
 
Haithamflamenco

Posts: 927
Joined: Mar. 6 2007
From: Bahrain

RE: Start With Flamenco or An "... (in reply to Quill) 
juan martin .

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Bahrain is my country and Andalucia is my dream
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 11 2013 11:30:14
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