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guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to Ricardo

I love em both.

Yum.

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 9 2013 18:07:40
 
chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010
 

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

***notice this post does not include adolescent attacks on your profession or irrelevant slurs against dead people.

I know right? Just ignore him, he's obviously got some sort of a chip on his shoulder regarding classical guitar. Probably due to frustration caused by an inability to perform up to his own standards. It's a personality thing, just wait a few years and you'll see him on an Indian classical music forum posting about how musicians of other disciplines are terrible human beings.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 9 2013 21:28:29
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3626
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to chester

old vs new

cante vs guitar

classical vs flamenco

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 9 2013 22:52:15
 
Grisha

 

Posts: 1263
Joined: Mar. 17 2005
 

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to guitarbuddha

Mark, that probably sounds like a snake hiss to Spanish-speaking people.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 9 2013 23:01:48
 
z6

 

Posts: 225
Joined: Mar. 1 2011
 

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to chester

quote:

I know right? Just ignore him, he's obviously got some sort of a chip on his shoulder regarding classical guitar. Probably due to frustration caused by an inability to perform up to his own standards. It's a personality thing, just wait a few years and you'll see him on an Indian classical music forum posting about how musicians of other disciplines are terrible human beings.


I'm right here Chester, in the 'room'.

Miguel, I promise I won't make slurs against your profession. What is your profession?

You say I make slurs against dead people? Don't you? I do it a lot. Is it not good etiquette? Am I being a bad egg?

There are interesting things being said here. Stop imagining that you are the guardians of something or other.

I taught myself to play. I didn't know any other guitarists. I formed my own opinion of Segovia from listening without talking to any other human beings about it. I hear him faking it all over the place and he's a giant. I hear people saying that Duarte is a giant. At what? What did he do, exactly? If I like Beethoven then I must be like Beethoven?

You start talking at each other about someone in the middle. What the fck?

You want to win the argument? You've won. There you are. Is that better? Segovia is my favourite. He's yummy and I love him so.

Flamenco is a dry pastry played by imbeciles and wanabee classical players who just can't cut it with the proper muzak. Is that better?

There are no differences. I'm all wrong 'n fullo sht. Causing trouble. Drunk again.

Wanna fight Miguel? Huh? Huh? Huh?

How's that Chester?

Why not simply state your position on some of the many arguments. Or say something funny or interesting. You can both do it. I know you can. Look at Aoleus. He's giving it what for; scanning plumbing manuals and shouting like Tarzan.

If you want to keep berating me I'll end up getting miffed and say something I shouldn't and then Miguel will cry and it'll be all my fault.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 9 2013 23:23:43
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1790
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

old vs new

cante vs guitar

classical vs flamenco


I love all 6 of them.... when done with good taste.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 10 2013 0:56:07
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to z6

I'm speechless!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 10 2013 1:18:53
 
chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010
 

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to z6

No one's a guardian and I can't care less about the silly argument here.

You're talking out of your as$ and being a d1ck to Miguel. I'm just calling you on it.

Relax, just apologize for being patronizing and move on.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 10 2013 3:45:33
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to Bliblablub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bliblablub

There is also no "relative" truth, ...


That´s how it seemed until quantum mechanics presented one object on two spots in the same time. An unthought new physics on particle level that threw over my good old deterministic understanding.
... Leaving truth relative to perspective, and that almost cynically within actual physical reality / beyond established cognition of the classical fool who connects entity to his individual take anyway. ( Mistreating everyone with his opportune arbitrariness.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bliblablub

..., hence the attribute "absolute" doesnt make any sense.

Depending on a level in question.

Entity appears to live in layers.
- With the third as a statement often equalling the first, eventhough derived on very different depth of insight and consideration.
-

What I want to say is that reality needs to be handled within realm of a corresponding level / layer.
A general truth so it seems can´t hold through all layers of consideration and proportion.

- Unfortunately.
Personally I used to embrace the idea of determinism and absolute truth.
It would had meant an universally common denominator, and confidence in some days universal agreement.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 10 2013 11:02:12
 
z6

 

Posts: 225
Joined: Mar. 1 2011
 

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to chester

quote:

Relax, just apologize for being patronizing and move on.


I apologize for being patronizing and I'll move on now.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 10 2013 11:18:52
 
Ricardo

Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to z6

Please people, let us all be nice and get along, classical or flamenco.

http://youtu.be/kskkS4g4hwI

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 10 2013 13:54:21
 
aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to guitarbuddha

play fair

http://s1183.photobucket.com/user/edward441/media/ConciertodeAranjuezII--GuitaristKUANGJunhong_cut_1_zps6fa21fb2.mp4.html
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 10 2013 16:06:01
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3626
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to Grisha

quote:

Mark, that probably sounds like a snake hiss to Spanish-speaking people.


hadn't thought of that.... any idea how Spanish comics show someone snoozing?

I assume everyone here would understand zzzzzzzzzzz as sleeping (ie. these "versus" threads bore me to sleep) as I assume, this being an English language forum, that everyone would understand English....

....but then I also assume that, this being a flamenco forum, the discussions will be about flamenco....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 10 2013 19:17:04
 
Bliblablub

 

Posts: 60
Joined: Oct. 9 2013
 

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to guitarbuddha

1. The intent is Grisha's and does not belong to the sentence.
I didn't mention his intent. The sentence is wrong.

2. Vapid.
Boring.

3. No there aren't. Generalisations are useful or not depending on the interpreter and the situation.
Yes there are. I didn't mention "useful".

4. You have two problems here. Firstly a lack of skill in English. Secondly the general drift of your post seems to suggest that English is not appropriate for all observations. I would tend to agree with you which is why I am disappointed that your clumsy attempt to explain boolean algebra was not accompanied by a diagram, as is normally the case.
I didn't expand on English as a language and I don't think it is the language of my post that you seem to have a problem with.

Appendix: If you think there exists nothing called truth there is truely (pun intended) no point in discussing.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 10 2013 19:39:30
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to Bliblablub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bliblablub


I don't think it is the language of my post that you seem to have a problem with.


Appendix: If you think there exists nothing called truth there is truely (pun intended) no point in discussing.


Maybe .... If you do not believe in the existance of truth then I see little purpose to further discussion..... is a little better.

But it still suggests that I do not believe in truth. I do not recall making such a claim.

Pedantry is an exacting hobby. Why inflict it on non afficianados ?

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 10 2013 20:48:30
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to guitarbuddha

quote:

ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha


Pedantry is an exacting hobby. Why inflict it on non afficianados ?




I'm going to have to steal that one, D.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 11 2013 1:52:18
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1809
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to Bliblablub

quote:

You have two problems here. Firstly a lack of skill in English.

[...]

Appendix: If you think there exists nothing called truth there is truely (pun intended) no point in discussing.


Truly amusing.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 11 2013 16:04:59
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to guitarbuddha

I just received word that Grisha will be here in Tempe this Saturday! I'm going to try to catch the show after an early gig. I've been a fan of Grisha's since 2004 or so when I became aware of him through his website. I was not aware he was coming, so I wanted to make a note for other Arizonans who might want to come out. Break a leg, Grisha!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 12 2013 2:08:51
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3446
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to aeolus

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus

quote:

The present quality of good digital recording far exceeds that of the best LPs


By what measure? In the old days of High Fidelity Magazine they had an engineer who tested equipment scientifically and he would conclude his assessment by saying from the reading he got on his equipment the unit should sound good or words to that effect.
How do you judge quality in music reproduction?


By listening to it.

In the first couple of years after the introduction of the CD, all the players I listened to sounded bad. The usual "scientific" measurements didn't reveal the reason. Then someone stumbled across a major cause of the trouble. The digital clock recovered by the players suffered from "jitter". There were minute variations in its frequency--the rate at which digital samples were clocked into the digital-to-analog converter. Crucially, these timing variations were correlated to the amplitude of the sound. This resulted in a highly audible form of distortion that no one had thought to measure previously. Once this was corrected--in some players--things started to sound better. Now clock jitter is routinely listed among the specs of good CD players. In my system the digital-to-analog converter clocks the CD transport. This is the other way around from most inexpensive players. It costs more to implement.

I cited Nyquist's theorem to refute the cliche that "chopping the music up into samples" somehow ruins it. It doesn't. Poor implementation of digital technology can ruin things, just as a poorly adjusted cutting lathe or bad gain riding can ruin an LP.

Furthermore, I might like the sound of your LP player better than the sound of your CD player. But I'm pretty sure I will like the sound of my CD player, on a good CD, better than I will like your LP player. I started listening to LPs when they first came out, and I still do, often with great pleasure.

"Scientific" measurements--at least the ones quoted in hi-fi magazines--fail quite audibly to predict the sound of a system. Anyone who plays an instrument or listens to live music can tell you that recorded music never sounds like the real thing. The best systems are just less distracting. Given the necessarily subjective evaluation of hi-fi gear, opinions will vary.

When I decided to spend some money on a high end system I listened to a variety of players over a period of a couple of years, using CDs I was familiar with and a pair of Stax electrostatic headphones, the cleanest transducers I have heard. One thing struck me forcefully. There are lots of very expensive CD players, costing thousands of dollars, that sound really, really terrible.

I finally found three CD players that I liked, and one that was pretty good. The pretty good one was a Sony that cost about $500. The three that I liked were a good deal more expensive. The high price was not due to some super-exotic technology. It was due to the small production runs, relative to the cost of design and development. The technology was conventional, just intelligently employed.

Word length-16 bits, 24 bits, ad infinitum-is another widely misunderstood parameter. How many bits you need depends upon the signal-to-noise ratio of the system. Properly dithered 16-bit sampling covers a dynamic range of 96 dB. Quoted values for the dynamic range of human hearing fall in the area of 100-114 dB. But to hear the faintest sounds the human has to be in an isolated anechoic chamber. The noise level of the average household is high enough to cut out the lower end of human perception. And the dynamic range of the great bulk of music is far less than 100 dB.

Some of the best sounding recorded reproduction I have heard doesn't use 24 bits or more. It uses only one bit. Each sample is either 1 or O. That's it, 1 or 0. But the sample rate is really high. Look up Sony's Direct-Stream-Digital system, used on SACDs.

Sorry for the OT. I can't get very interested in the flamenco vs. classical "debate". When I was a kid trumpet player I played in the Washington Summer Symphony, some jazz groups, and I had my own dance band. I caught flack from three different directions.

Get over it.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 12 2013 15:07:36
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to Richard Jernigan

Hey Richard, the noise floor is such a big deal. My best headphones are my $100 (at the time) HD 280 Pros. Not because they are that good, but because they have a great deal of sound isolation. It's hard to hear the details, the nuances, the life, of the music when you are competing with:

1. computer fan
2. air handler fan
3. lawn mower
4. radio coming from next room
5. paper shuffling from next room
6. dog licking its paws
7. dog outside barking

(the things I hear when I close my eyes just now)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 12 2013 15:18:42
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3446
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria

Hey Richard, the noise floor is such a big deal. My best headphones are my $100 (at the time) HD 280 Pros. Not because they are that good, but because they have a great deal of sound isolation. It's hard to hear the details, the nuances, the life, of the music when you are competing with:

1. computer fan
2. air handler fan
3. lawn mower
4. radio coming from next room
5. paper shuffling from next room
6. dog licking its paws
7. dog outside barking

(the things I hear when I close my eyes just now)


If you ever sat in an isolated anechoic chamber for a while, your heartbeat and the blood rushing through the arteries and veins near your ears would have come to seem pretty loud.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 12 2013 15:27:27
 
aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to guitarbuddha

quote:

By listening to it.


Right! From the small sampling here it's 3 to 1 vinyl over cd.

quote:

Get over it.


Anything you say.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 12 2013 15:45:19
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1790
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan


In the first couple of years after the introduction of the CD, all the players I listened to sounded bad.

Anyone who plays an instrument or listens to live music can tell you that recorded music never sounds like the real thing. The best systems are just less distracting. Given the necessarily subjective evaluation of hi-fi gear, opinions will vary.


In those early year 2 players were pretty good. 1 of them was made by Denon but had a price tag of over 2000,- (normal ones did cost less as 500,-). I heard an employe of Philips discovered a structural translation mistake during the digital>analog part and invented a very simple solution that could be build in in every player for little money. But he invented it in his spare time so he wanted to be payed for his invention. Philips on the other hand stated that every private invention made during his contract years with philips automatically were their's as well. As a result the invention remained unused for years.

I was very impressed when i heard the first DAT recorder. Someone with way more knowledge of digital recording told me that there is a huge difference between storing digital info on tape/hard-disc or on (plastic) cd and that my aversion against the sound of the plastic cd (and my liking of DAT) was totally explainable.
I have no idea of the precent levels of cd players. I do know the quality of an LP considerably drops after 3-10 rounds of playing (during which lots of details ware out) but i very much like those first 5 rounds. I ones attended a hifi demonstration showing both cd and lp on a 100.000,- set and didn't like both of them, mainly because that capital amplifier did not include tonal influence of any kind (only 2 inputs and a volume button).

2 sources i did like in recent years are the digital recordings my brother makes of himself in his private studio (as i understand recorded at higher levels than plastic cd can handle) and i liked a recording of Diane Krall that was released on LP at 78 rpm.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 12 2013 19:03:12
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to Erik van Goch

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik van Goch
didn't like both of them, mainly because that capital amplifier did not include tonal influence of any kind (only 2 inputs and a volume button).


This is one of the weird hangups about the weird hi-fi subculture. One school of thought is that the less intereference between the source and the speaker, the better. EQ is one of those possible sources of interference, and is thus left out on most hi-fi systems. The big problem with this idea is the loudness curve, how we hear differently at different levels. Essentially, unless we blast our stereos, the bass will seem to be weak--and therefore not at all like intended. There should at least be a bass booster/loudness button to account for this issue.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 12 2013 19:20:21
 
aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to guitarbuddha

quote:

Essentially, unless we blast our stereos, the bass will seem to be weak--and therefore not at all like intended.


Isn't a sub-woofer supposed to cure that? I have one and I think it works well.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 12 2013 19:44:09
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to aeolus

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus

quote:

Essentially, unless we blast our stereos, the bass will seem to be weak--and therefore not at all like intended.


Isn't a sub-woofer supposed to cure that? I have one and I think it works well.


A sub-woofer is just a speaker that specializes in bass frequencies. The "loudness" problem I was referring to has to do with how we hear things at a low volume, not a failure of the system to reproduce the sound.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 12 2013 22:36:48
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 12 2013 22:55:38
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 12 2013 23:00:19
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3446
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to aeolus

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus

From the small sampling here it's 3 to 1 vinyl over cd.



As I said, I evaluate by listening. If you prefer to proceed by taking votes among strangers, that is certainly your prerogative.

I am most often outvoted in political elections here in Texas, so I'm used to it. I'm pretty sure my next door neighbors on one side vote just about the exact opposite of the way I do. But they are wonderfully nice people. You couldn't ask for better neighbors. I just don't discuss politics or religion with them.

But the flamenco vs. classical "debate" seems to be going against you on this forum. I think you would find more political support elsewhere.

On some classical forum I read a review of Grisha's performance and class at the GFA in Austin in 2010. It was, shall we say, unenthusiastic. Not overtly negative, just damning with faint praise. I didn't hear that performance. But when I did hear Grisha in person, I really liked it a lot.

Opinions will vary. I don't really mind if people are reasonably polite and stick to the truth when they cite "facts". The classical reviewer of Grisha's performance was careful to let the reader know that flamenco was definitely not his bag. He was impressed by Grisha's technique.

I was impressed by his technique too, but I was impressed much more by the fire and emotion of his music making.

Among classical concerts here in Austin in the last few months I especially enjoyed Jason Vieaux, Solo Duo, and just this past Saturday, Les Frères Méduses. I went home very happy from each concert. But no happier than I did from Grisha's .

So it goes.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 13 2013 1:12:32
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3446
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to Guest

Thanks for the interview Shroomy--great reading. I read somewhat the same a time or two elsewhere, about how he would have been a singer if he could have. He makes his guitar sing for him.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 13 2013 1:48:17
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