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RE: PDL says you dont need to study !   You are logged in as Guest
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mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to aeolus

also some harmonics at the end of this vid



and re. harmonics, what about Ramon Montoya's Rondeña (the beginning)?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 6 2013 14:47:00
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to aeolus

while I'm in vid posting mode, and seeing as you don't seem to have much flamenco to listen to, here's another




and accompanying Fernanda;




....Carmen Linares;




....Enrique Morente;


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 6 2013 14:51:46
 
Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: mezzo

quote:

whats up with all these recent weird comparisons of classical and flamenco guitarists anyway?

Wait until someone post a vid from a classical guru and challenges us, flamenco guitarist (on a flamenco foro) to replay that piece...

it happened a while ago if I remember correctly

maybe it's time to rebrand this place FlamClassicForo since most of the classical topics related (that aren't few btw) landed in the general section.



Actually its nice to have classical guitarists participating here.
I often felt dissapointed about the 'elitist' attitude some classical guitarists have towards us flamencos and found it to be
unnecessary and mainly based on lack of knowledge about the ...."nuances" of this art ;D)
and find it good to set a good example by communicating differently and to have the doors always open for everyone.

But a minimum level of understanding, willigness to gain basic knowledge about this art and a little initial 'respect' for this genre
is required in order to have a basis for a fruitful discussion instead of the usual opposition provoking comments.

You can't go to an airbrush forum and always post oil painting videos
and say that oil painting is much nicer and expect the members to always stay calm ;)

Back to harmonics: well, if you want my honest opinion, 'harmonics" as shown in the examples in this thread are neither necessary
in flamenco to create expressiveness, nor actually really match to this style of music anyway. Its also not like we can't play these type of 'harmonics',
its just we (mostly) don't want to and don't need to. Simple as that.
Therefore i also don't understand the need to search and find examples in videos to show "hey look, we also have harmonics" , it is not necessary.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 6 2013 15:24:44
 
aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to aeolus

quote:

another suit and tie


I noticed that PDL wore what I would call flamenco threads in his video of the Aranjuez which I prefer to all else. And I never rubbished flamenco players just remarked on what I see as the differences in the technique and the type of music played. I just received the DVD I ordered of PDL and Group Jazz .I'll be on the lookout for harmonics. I noticed that some of the video's you posted featured what looked to be classical guitars--deep body/rosewd/cedar. PDL played a Conde I think in the Aranjuez that sounded like a classical.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 6 2013 15:42:48
 
Grisha

 

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RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to mark indigo

The main difference between flamenco and classical guitar is in the mindset. Classical guitarists have to monitor EVERY note they play in every melodic line and every chord, whereas flamenco guitarists mainly deal with general contours and dynamics. The biggest challenge in classical guitar is to monitor all the lines in polyphonic music and assign individual tonal colors, dynamics and, most importantly, articulations to every voice, so that the audience hears clear independent lines, as if an ensemble was playing. That level of control requires a different mindset than that appropriate to flamenco. This is not to say, of course, that flamenco guitarists are not aware of a great multitude of nuances in their plating, it's just that they do not think about every note.

On a side note, I also suspect that classical guitarists' historical lack of scale speed is due to this very mindset, which prevents them from disconnecting the mind from every note and letting the fingers fly.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 6 2013 15:48:49
 
Sr. Martins

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RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to Grisha

quote:

On a side note, I also suspect that classical guitarists' historical lack of scale speed is due to this very mindset, which prevents them from disconnecting the mind from every note and letting the fingers fly.


Bloodwood!

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 6 2013 16:12:44
 
gerundino63

Posts: 1749
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to aeolus

No harmonics? ........listen to the beautiful Zapateado from Sabicas played by Paco Peña.

Harmonics on 3.37min.

Take the time to listen to the whole piece, you will love it.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 6 2013 16:15:47
 
aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

This is not to say, of course, that flamenco guitarists are not aware of a great multitude of nuances in their plating, it's just that they do not think about every note.


Thanks for that. So yeah that's what I was trying to say.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 6 2013 16:25:46
 
mark indigo

 

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RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to aeolus

quote:

I'll be on the lookout for harmonics.


if harmonics are your benchmark for whether guitar music is sophisticated or nuanced or worth your time and attention, then flamenco guitar is gonna fail.

There are a few used occasionally, but that's it.

Different music, different mindset, different set of nuances.... judging flamenco guitar by the criteria of classical guitar, and vice versa, is pointless.



quote:

I noticed that some of the video's you posted featured what looked to be classical guitars--deep body/rosewd/cedar. PDL played a Conde I think in the Aranjuez that sounded like a classical.


......!

Those guitars are called "flamenca negra's" They are flamenco guitars but made with rosewood instead of cypress. There are loads of threads on this forum about them;

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=180703&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=flamenca%2Cnegra&tmode=&smode=&s=#180793

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=138453&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=flamenca%2Cnegra&tmode=&smode=&s=#138563

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=47938&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=flamenca%2Cnegra&tmode=&smode=&s=#47941

In case you don't find it here is the link to the article by Richard Brune (the link is in one of the threads if you read through) http://www.juliacrowe.com/2007pdf/brune.pdf

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 6 2013 17:23:35
 
aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

Those guitars are called "flamenca negra's" They are flamenco guitars but made with rosewood instead of cypress. There are loads of threads on this forum about them;


Right. I bought a Conde bz/spruce negra a few years ago. A lovely instrument in every respect. Except...the C on the 1st and 2nd string were stone cold dead. So I sent it back. I bought it mail order from GSI and I am sure they could never sell it in the store. The first 2 vids with Rafael shows a guitar with a deep body which I would associate with classical.
I have a guy on the west coast making a Bouchet copy for me to a later pattern with a large cross bar under the bridge which is supposed to result in even resonance. We'll see.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 6 2013 18:09:09
 
Arash

Posts: 4495
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From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to aeolus

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus
The first 2 vids with Rafael shows a guitar with a deep body which I would associate with classical.


Riqueni played a Miguel Rodriguez and a Barba



and also Conde ...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 6 2013 18:59:53
 
z6

 

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RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to mark indigo

Aoeleus, you say that what Grisha said is what you meant. Okay. If that's the case. I apologize.

It isn't, of course. But never mind. I don't understand why you can't see flamenco as a subset of 'classical' music. Maybe it wasn't in the past, but it has evolved very quickly. Arash is right. It is not 'that kind' of competition. But those among us who compete with ourselves... with an actual guitar in our hands, are always on the lookout for ways to improve, to appreciate.

Grisha can't be allowed into this thread because he's the only person 'qualified'. An actual virtuoso. What he is taking into classical guitar is very special indeed. And I think it is important and will be entirely misunderstood, as these things usually are, by many diehards who simply cannot process the sounds they hear. Too robotic! Too technical! Where's the nuance?

But that's okay because people such as myself, and I expect, many thousands of others will come to hear what Bach can really sound like on this wonderful instrument.

Separating the music from the technique is important. (Though not while it's actually happening) Many people here play classical guitar. There is no fight. But there is thirst for knowledge.

I heard Grisha on Youtube when he was a little whippersnapper. It was exactly, for me, like watching Perelman play when he was a kid. Or like hearing Tommy Smith play sax when he was 12.

Nevertheless, the level of technique required to play flamenco seems, to me, to be a quantum leap over that required to 'play' classical.

Richard Feynman once said that maths is too hard so instead we teach our children algorithms by which it looks as if advanced maths is being practised. 'Understanding' becomes moot.

Bach fugues, for example, are simply 'too hard' to play on a guitar the way a pianist might do it on a keyboard. Bear in mind that a pianist would have to have tons and tons and tons of stuff at that level under his/her fingertips at all times.

Classical guitaists do a good job attempting this stuff but Grisha is the only 'classical' guitarist I've heard of who could probably give you a fugue then Trafalgar followed by Monesterio de Sal and a few hours more. Why? Why doesn't Williams ever play Almoraima? He'd play Cavatina or Pictures at an Exhibition, maybe. Why not Almoraima? Think he never heard it? Think he thinks it's rubbish?

That has been around for years in other instruments but it didn't exist until Grisha.

But just because he seems always to have been able to do it doesn't mean he doesn't understand it thoroughly.

It is this very motion of which he speaks. Like a perpetual motion picado, for example, that seems to differentiate. But the 'nuance' comes from somewhere deeper, all because of technique; relaxation.

A lot of classical performances sound to me like they think the 'feeling' can be 'pinned on'. Here's a crescendo, tirando, sul ponticello, whoa slow down here at this change up, milk it a bit here. (And it is seldom... in time.) Segovia granted three generations the license to take it easy when the going got tough.

I love Bream. I think his playing is genius. I saw him three times, in the flesh. He could hardly get halfway through a piece without it almost falling to pieces.

And all that 'kid-on' modern music. I had exactly the same reaction to Britten as I had to Hendrix. But classical guitarists seem to fill their 'programs' with Brower and Duarte and the like. I find such music insulting.

And finally. And not least. Balls. The jumbo sized ones that have to be attached when flamenco is played makes a huge difference. Classical guitar doesn't really exist. We plant tunes onto the fretboard in such a way as to make them possible to play.

I get what Grisha is saying. And he is right that that is the focus in classical guitar. Each note individually sculpted. But what I hear isn't that. I hear that, all the time, in every single flamenco guitar performace. Every note really, really matters. But only in terms of the music. Not in and of itself, vis-a-vis, pinned on nuance.

(And yes, I've heard Williams but when he sits near a flamenco player it all starts to get wierd.)

All generalisms and dogma, I know.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 6 2013 20:49:25
 
aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

I don't understand why you can't see flamenco as a subset of 'classical' music.


But it's not at all. Segovia has said flamenco is the other side of the mountain from classical. So, equal but different.

quote:

Nevertheless, the level of technique required to play flamenco seems, to me, to be a quantum leap over that required to 'play' classical.


No offense but that's rubbish. Quantum? Give me a break!

quote:

Classical guitaists do a good job attempting this stuff but Grisha is the only 'classical' guitarist I've heard of who could probably give you a fugue then Trafalgar followed by Monesterio de Sal and a few hours more. Why? Why doesn't Williams ever play Almoraima? He'd play Cavatina or Pictures at an Exhibition, maybe. Why not Almoraima? Think he never heard it? Think he thinks it's rubbish?


I am not a fan of Williams excursions into crossover type music as I find it vapid. Np argument there.

quote:

A lot of classical performances sound to me like they think the 'feeling' can be 'pinned on'. Here's a crescendo, tirando, sul ponticello, whoa slow down here at this change up, milk it a bit here. (And it is seldom... in time.) Segovia granted three generations the license to take it easy when the going got tough.


well yeah, that's what music is about. Listen to Frank Sinatra for phrasing. Color is in integral part of music. That flamenco has little of this is probably why you devalue it.

quote:

I love Bream. I think his playing is genius. I saw him three times, in the flesh. He could hardly get halfway through a piece without it almost falling to pieces


I have heard him live to and I never noticed that.



quote:

And all that 'kid-on' modern music. I had exactly the same reaction to Britten as I had to Hendrix. But classical guitarists seem to fill their 'programs' with Brower and Duarte and the like. I find such music insulting.


So. many others are enchanted by these compositions

quote:

I get what Grisha is saying. And he is right that that is the focus in classical guitar. Each note individually sculpted. But what I hear isn't that. I hear that, all the time, in every single flamenco guitar performace. Every note really, really matters. But only in terms of the music. Not in and of itself, vis-a-vis, pinned on nuance.


I,ll take Grisha's explication thank you.

I appreciate your response and please understand I am trying to get at the fundamental difference in the 2 techniques and not making any value judgement.
Obviously you are not moved by classical guitar just as I have a hard time getting into the grove of flamenco. but I'm working on it.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 6 2013 21:41:00
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to z6

What a lot of words to dress up the snobbery of the post-Gipsy King aficionado!Taking into consideration the length, the illogic, the sense of self-importance, and the seeming lack of self-awareness, this strikes me as about the most pompous and wearisome post I've seen on this forum.

"Classical guitar doesn't exist."
Yes, CGers have to practice precise fingerings and arrangements. One reason it's more demanding than most folk music. FYI, so do classical pianists. Do you really think they are playing Beethoven and Chopin with improvised fingerings? And so do flamenco guitarists. They're called falsetas and choreographies. Sure, flamencos can play chords and follow singers without working it out. Great!

"Classical guitarists think feeling can be 'pinned' on."
Most musicians believe in responding to and emphasizing important parts of the music. Flamenco singers and dancers also do this. Apparently you do not. It is hard to do when everything is being played fortissimo.

"Technique needed for flamenco is more difficult than classical".
I think Grisha's post rebuts yours rather easily. Tone requirements, accuracy, precision, consistency, command of the entire dynamic range in several voices, keeping incredible amounts of complex music to produce on demand are far more important in CG.

I especially like the mental contortions required by arguing that even if every note in flamenco is not individually sculpted, it really, really matters. That's some heavy duty sophistry, there.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2013 0:59:17
 
z6

 

Posts: 225
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RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to Miguel de Maria

Cheers Miguel. Good luck with those weddings mate.

Aoleus. Apologies again. I appear to have illicited, within you, the delusion that this is an argument.

I said 'play'. The quotes were deliberate. Summat's wrong wi' classical guitar technique. Fundamentally. The approach. The discipline. I dunno.

You assume I 'don't like classical'. I love it but I can only do it now, very slowly. Classical guitar, if it exists, is a kind of wonderful deceit. One can actually, with a fundamentally flawed technique, play Bach fugues. I know this because I've done it for money, in front of people, technically flawlessly, give or take, for money. I'm not attacking anything I am investigating reality.

Listen to Nunez play Trafalger. Every note, every phrase, every nuance, on the edge. Look at him play. He's 'playing' rhythm guitar. Look at his face. What do you see?

Great classical players usually 'incorporate' the excess tension into the performance. What else could one do when already renowned but lumbered. Nunez looks as relaxed as a classical pianist or violinist.

But maybe even much more than that. The felling of playing flamenco is like one's hand is a fan spinning. The music the consequence and the fun of playing rhythm guitar.

Technique is nothing but being honest with one's self. Russel and many others have lovely, flowing, beautiful techniques. But how do I play really really fast? Not as a speed freak. How do I gain headroom unless I spend thousands of hours on basics ( because basics are all there is).

Miguel. Don't get so angry mate. If you've got it all sorted then congrats to you.

Understand that these, to me, are fine technical points that I know can alter one's technical and musical trajectory. I cannot say all things at the same time so it sounds like I am 'dissing' something. You don't own these things to take offense.

But Duarte and Brower are s h i t e. But maybe you have to study their music for hundreds of hours to understand it. Like wot I did.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2013 4:26:48
 
z6

 

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Joined: Mar. 1 2011
 

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to z6

And Aoleus and Miguel. I offer even more apologies if the above seems 'aimed' or barbed.

Yes. Quantum leap. That's what it feels like. Well that or a bunch of bananas hanging off my wrist. Although I admit to not actually leaping, quantumly, filing my nails right, glue, and doing my A B Cs, changed what had not changed in thirty years. And the childish, puerile even, desire for speed has been replaced by 'command' (except for the bananas when I go over my own humble 'edge'... And even then, as long as I keep the rhythm, Bach won't mind).
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2013 4:50:02
 
Bliblablub

 

Posts: 60
Joined: Oct. 9 2013
 

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to z6

quote:

ORIGINAL: z6
You assume I 'don't like classical'. I love it but I can only do it now, very slowly. Classical guitar, if it exists, is a kind of wonderful deceit. One can actually, with a fundamentally flawed technique, play Bach fugues. I know this because I've done it for money, in front of people, technically flawlessly, give or take, for money. I'm not attacking anything I am investigating reality.


It seems as if the beginning of this column wasn't funny enough ("if Classical Guitar exists"), you just had to finish with "investigating reality", right? Very ammusing post, even if that wasn't its intention. So, congrats on this one.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2013 11:18:35
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to z6

z6, I think every classical guitarist has to come to terms with how difficult of an art it is. Very possibly, it actually is reserved for virtuosos and those who are rigorously trained from very young. Many people who fail will need to rationalize away what they had once wanted. I'm never going to be able to pick up an hour's worth of complex contrapuntal music in a season and then reel it off flawlessly, by memory, in front of an audience, like the pros. But plenty of people can. It's real.

In this, it's not much different than any other classical music. Or flamenco. I wonder if you believe that the great sea of "intermediate" flamenco guitarists who try to play Paco de Lucia falsetas have a superior ownership of their music. A teacher of mine spent two weeks teaching my intermediate class his tangos, and then conceded it would have taken him about 10 minutes to learn it if he were in our shoes. The same gap exists between the great unwashed in CG and flamenco.

I do appreciate posts from someone of your sophistication. But your conclusions are unfortunate, twisted, and--when we're in a vulnerable mood--insulting.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2013 13:31:53
 
z6

 

Posts: 225
Joined: Mar. 1 2011
 

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to Miguel de Maria

Twisted? Cheers mate. But you're correct. I hope.

I have to say I don't have acces to your vulnerability data so that I can compensate.

You're conclusions are a bit Clement Freud in a dogfood ad to me.

I'm 55 and I know I can get there. (Of course I'll croak before you think me puffy-shirt worthy.) But only because of this place, and the peeps within.

Blubalub. Yes. Even for me that was super dopey. The unintentional humour is even worse where I say "for money" twice. Maybe I unconcsiously appied a multiplier to suggest it was more than enough for a burger. I just meant I 'could' play well but the better I got; to the point of flawlessness, the worse it felt. The technical foundations imposed a real price. Which is wonderful because now I only play for fun. For many years now.

Flamenco guitar has highly-evolved internal structures across many dimensions that make it 'easy' and fun. And the very thing that I craved (as a musician) seems that it cannot not happen. As long as I don't kid myself. Erik, for example, exemplifies, more vividly than I could, the 'fight'. Ricardo exemplifies the certainty of purpose. But my basics were fundamentally flawed. (Nails then start over.)

I can now 'fix' my technique. I can repair it. I can feel exponential advancement. Miguel, nobody has fugues and concertos in multiples of fifty or more in a guitar repertoire. You could fill a bus with the number of thirteen-year old pianists, even I've seen, who can.

But the bit in Almoraima, after the Uhd/ood/ i dunno The arpeggios. Could Williams, and he is in my opinion, a towering genius when he plays; could he do that, at speed, and if not, why not?

(You will be graded. This is serious stuff.)

And I get ancy when I hear 'people' talk about guitar composers (in a particular fashion) when we have such astonishing talents, worlds above many 'classical guitar' composers, among us. It only seems 'personal' when I apply the correct label. It's not a reflection on people who claim to enjoy it. But has anyone anywhere ever put Duarte on a playlist for enjoyment?

I listen to Ricardo's album at least three times a week. The Old Grey Whistle Test, cheese-free wonderfulment.

Nuance, i tell ye!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2013 15:29:43
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to z6

Z:I have to say I don't have acces to your vulnerability data so that I can compensate.
M: writing a bunch of incendiary, half-baked lines meant to offend is called "trolling" here on ye olde internet.

Z:You're conclusions are a bit Clement Freud in a dogfood ad to me.
M: No idea what that means, but it does sound good.

Z:I'm 55 and I know I can get there. (Of course I'll croak before you think me puffy-shirt worthy.) But only because of this place, and the peeps within.
M:anyone can wear a puffy shirt, it's all in the attitude.

Z: I just meant I 'could' play well but the better I got; to the point of flawlessness, the worse it felt.
M: That will occur in any discipline. Ricardo said that the better he got, the further Paco away Paco seemed. It doesn't invalidate the struggle or the "existence" of an art form! We could learn Carulli etude-level pieces to the level of improvising them. We wouldn't because that would be lame, as CG is not a living art form. We could possibly even learn to improvise in a baroque style, if we trained for it and didn't have to waste time with Renaissance, Romantic, and Modern music.

Z:The technical foundations imposed a real price. Which is wonderful because now I only play for fun. For many years now.
M: It was the standards you were holding yourself to. Virtuoso music and not missing a note, like a recording. You will not learn to play like either Bream or Paco (if you could, you're being very patient hanging out on this forum).

Z:Flamenco guitar has highly-evolved internal structures across many dimensions that make it 'easy' and fun.
M: like other folk music--blues, rock, etc.

Z:And the very thing that I craved (as a musician) seems that it cannot not happen.
M: Are you saying that you realized virtuoso CG would never be as easy and fun for you as folk music? I think most of us come to that point, (we give up) and that's why we also play around with other styles, even give up CG. Some people realize they will never play flamenco that well, so they give it up.

Z:As long as I don't kid myself. Erik, for example, exemplifies, more vividly than I could, the 'fight'. Ricardo exemplifies the certainty of purpose. But my basics were fundamentally flawed. (Nails then start over.)
M: Fundamentals are the main thing, aren't they? Actually, it's about the process, not the product. Whoever has the most fun, wins.

Z:I can now 'fix' my technique. I can repair it. I can feel exponential advancement.
M: Sounds like a good place to be.

Z:Miguel, nobody has fugues and concertos in multiples of fifty or more in a guitar repertoire. You could fill a bus with the number of thirteen-year old pianists, even I've seen, who can.
M: You're exaggerating, of course, but no one said piano wasn't better suited for playing complex music than guitar. And classical piano has a much better feeder system. College kids who started playing rock is not the best nursery for classical music virtuosos. Julian Bream, best CGer of them all for me, might not have been infallible in concert, but the guys now are. These are kids in their twenties who hardly drop a note in a whole evening.


But the bit in Almoraima, after the Uhd/ood/ i dunno The arpeggios. Could Williams, and he is in my opinion, a towering genius when he plays; could he do that, at speed, and if not, why not?

(You will be graded. This is serious stuff.)

And I get ancy when I hear 'people' talk about guitar composers (in a particular fashion) when we have such astonishing talents, worlds above many 'classical guitar' composers, among us. It only seems 'personal' when I apply the correct label. It's not a reflection on people who claim to enjoy it. But has anyone anywhere ever put Duarte on a playlist for enjoyment?

I listen to Ricardo's album at least three times a week. The Old Grey Whistle Test, cheese-free wonderfulment.

Nuance, i tell ye!
[/quote]

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2013 19:18:26
 
Grisha

 

Posts: 1263
Joined: Mar. 17 2005
 

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to mark indigo

Again, each style has its own technical and musical challenges. Get serious with classical guitar and you will soon encounter plenty to work on. Advanced artificial harmonics played simultaneously with other voices, double trills, fast pizzicato lines, impossible stretches with no preparation time, awkward shifts, string skipping in arpeggios and chords, advanced polyrhythms, completely unidiomatic brain-frying chord voicings, etc. If you have doubts it calls for monster technique to do masterfully, try to play any intermediate to advanced classical piece exactly as it appears on the page - with correct note values, articulations and dynamics. Even muting (and sustaining) the notes in time is a monumental challenge. And then imagine the kind of technical reserve required to play it flawlessly in concert 10 times out of 10.

In flamenco guitar playing it is more of a challenge of rendering physically challenging techniques like picado, alzapua, tremolo, fast arpeggio and a variety of rasgueados a tempo and with clarity and projection. It is very demanding for the hands, but more often than not the lines are more or less idiomatic for the instrument, because they are composed by actual guitarists that know what works and what doesn't. One thing in which flamenco guitar is ahead of classical (for the most part, as modern composers are catching up) is the level of syncopation and rhythmic detail. The attention given to the correct swing, absolutely steady tempo, off-beat accents and clarity of all the strummed techniques parallels that of classical guitarists' attention to articulations, dynamics, etc.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2013 20:10:22
 
aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

Even muting (and sustaining) the notes in time is a monumental challenge.


So true! Try Sor's Opus 35 No.16.David Tanenbaum quotes Abel Carlevaro
The ability to stop a sound at any given moment is no less important than the ability to produce it.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2013 20:34:18
 
aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

And I get ancy when I hear 'people' talk about guitar composers (in a particular fashion) when we have such astonishing talents, worlds above many 'classical guitar' composers, among us. It only seems 'personal' when I apply the correct label. It's not a reflection on people who claim to enjoy it. But has anyone anywhere ever put Duarte on a playlist for enjoyment?


Well to each his own.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2013 21:42:04
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to Grisha

Here is (just some of) what Felix Grande writes of Paco de Lucia's "Siroco" LP:

".... It would be too shallow an observation to merely point out the jewels of harmony, the incomparable technical strength, the intricate rhythmic architecture of these pieces. .... There is far more here; a celebration of the most ancient and of the new, a keening and singing which journeys through bulerías and minera, soleá and alegrías, Rondeña and tangos. To even hint at surprise before the dimensions of tragic splendour and tensile rhythm intrinsic in the rumba or tanguillos is precise indeed, but unnecessary. All this is essential and superficial, for who could deny that there has never been a more exquisite use of glissade in flamenco, of pianissimo, and of silence (oh, with what eloquence the silence whispers here!). To speak of this is at once to say all, yet to say very little. There is more - an anguish, joy, disquiet, an absolute and profound calm to the music. I have never heard guitar like this, not even in the hands of Paco de Lucía himself. This is a flamenco revelation, rich with Andalucian tradition and musical virtuosity. ...."

when people write about your music like that, you can stop studying, until then..... keep at it

Alegrías from Siroco "La Barrosa":




basically the soleá from Siroco, "Gloria al Niño Ricardo" but with an older ending:




the tangos;




the minera, but here live with a different intro not recorded on the cd;




the bulerías (sounds like the cd to me, and yeah, was posted and discussed recently on the "cult leader" thread)




the rondeña (more or less);




the tanguillos;




and the rumba (with a lot of live impro that's not on the lp/cd);



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 8 2013 8:23:52
 
aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to mark indigo

that makes a nice collection. I'll work through that.

If you are interested Maw was a Brit. Here are his notes for Music of Memory



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 8 2013 12:15:54
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to mark indigo

Aeolus,
why are you going on about the Maw? If you are trying to convert flamencos to CG, that's the wrong piece. I saw the awesome Marcin Dylla play that here in Tempe. He didn't miss a note (or, I couldn't tell), which means a lot since that piece has about 20,000 notes in it. I sat through the ten minutes or whatever, but didn't enjoy it at all. During intermission, one of the doctoral candidates came up to me and said: "What was up with that piece? It was MAWful!"

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 8 2013 14:09:36
 
aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

During intermission, one of the doctoral candidates came up to me and said: "What was up with that piece? It was MAWful!"


MdM
No doubt he would have been happier at an Ottmar Liebert concert.
And I'm not trying to convert anybody to anything but you seem to have a low opinion of classical guitar composers so I offered what I thought might
be superior to Duarte.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 8 2013 14:29:43
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to aeolus

Sometimes music which is willfully avant garde can really come to life in the concert hall.

I don't think that a bad pun necessarily shows more talent or is more worthy of a second hearing, even if comprehension takes less effort.

D.
quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus

quote:

During intermission, one of the doctoral candidates came up to me and said: "What was up with that piece? It was MAWful!"


MdM
No doubt he would have been happier at an Ottmar Liebert concert.
And I'm not trying to convert anybody to anything but you seem to have a low opinion of classical guitar composers so I offered what I thought might
be superior to Duarte.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 8 2013 14:44:17
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to guitarbuddha

Aeolus I love Sor too but wasn't very impressed by the famous Tannenbaum recording of the studies. However I was very impressed by Norbert Kraft (in 94 when I heard it).

Maybe you'll enjoy that.

http://www.discogs.com/Sor-Aguado-T%C3%A1rrega-Norbert-Kraft-19th-Century-Guitar-Favourites/release/2845870

John Mills is still playing in the Segovia style. He showcased some of that repetoire live on the BBC Radio3 show in tune and his separation of parts was just fabulous and I found his interpretation convincing and 'finished' in a way which I seldom do Segovias recordings..

Unfortunately it is not longer available to listen to online but you might enjoy checking out his more recent releases.

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 8 2013 15:04:05
 
aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

John Mills is still playing in the Segovia style. He showcased some of that repetoire live on the BBC Radio3 show in tune and his separation of parts was just fabulous and I found his interpretation convincing and 'finished' in a way which I seldom do Segovias recordings..


Segovia cut his teeth recording direct to disc ie no editing possible and he has said he prefers to do the same even when editing , and some artists do considerable, was available not worrying about little mistakes.
vladimir horowitz spent 10 years recording only with editing and when he returned to concerts he was terrified as he knew he couldn't play what was on his records and would get cold feet and cancel. He did this in Philadelphia once and the promoter sued him. Don't know if he could collect.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 8 2013 16:07:52
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