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tele

Posts: 1468
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to Morante

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante

Hola


Many of the young flamencos here have studied in the conservatorio



do you mean in Jerez? Which line(/subject) do you think they study and in what conservatorio? I think studying in conservatorio is great way to meet new people and even get a paper for studying something in "serious manner".

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 2 2013 16:40:04
 
Morante

 

Posts: 2208
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to tele

Sorry, my English escapes me at times.

Conservatorio is music school: most towns have one. They cater for all ages and abilities: for example, in Cádiz, the sax professors are Carlos Villoslaba and Pedro Cortejosa, both of high professional standard and both have their young children enrolled.

Any instrument, piano, percussion, flute etc. can be studied with good professors. As a result, several of the young flamencos began by studying classical guitar and reading notation, then went off for lessons with Manolo Sanlúcar etc. But being flamenco by birth, their music does not suffer from this knowledge, and they can work with other musicians in other genres.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 2 2013 17:56:21
 
aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to tele

quote:

But being flamenco by birth,


You mean gypsies? or what?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 2 2013 19:54:24
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to aeolus

maybe gitano yes .. but I think he just means the life style .... being born into a family that lives in Andalucia where they will hear all types of flamenco music from birth ..( actually that is a good reason for a flamenco 'party' birth )
the music in in the house , in the streets in the bars , their family might play . or sing , or the sisters may dance , or any number of things . it could be exposure .. flamenco in Spain is a life style really ..

At any , even local 'verbena ' you will see kids of 3 and 4 maybe dancing sevillanas and other things and their mothers and grandmothers will be dancing too ....

I know lots of girls that dont remember learning to dance ..too young.., they just copy big sister ..for example .....flamenco family

true Morante

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 2 2013 20:30:30

ToddK

 

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004
 

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

The theory should just be a set of tools to facilitate finding where you need to go and perhaps opening your mind to trying it elsewhere. I'm always fascinated when people are obsessed with "but he doesn't read a note of music" or "he never even went to school to learn music." Music is sound and idioms and traditions and the rest are pre-made tools with little intrinsic value.


Music is a language. Its about communication, just like a spoken language.

Take somebody that writes books. One would never (at least i dont think) claim
that one could be a better writer with less command over the language.
Total command over a language gives you
the tools for maximum expression and communication.

The more deeply a musician understands his/her language, the more expressive
and communicative he/she can be.
And it does not need to be a written language. The dots and staff are not
the point either. Its not about that.

I'm not talking about learning the conventional terminology or to read the dots. I'm just talking about understanding the theory of music (rhythm and harmony), in any way there is to understand it.
Paco understands music theory as deeply as formally schooled guitar professors like Pat Metheny, or Ted Greene.
He just doesnt know the terminology. The terms are not the point. The point
is the understanding.

Paco is an exception. He has an innate talent. Most of us will not have that
level of command over harmony without external training.
You need to be trained, or train yourself however you can. Otherwise, you are
not playing with a full deck. Simple as that.

Thinking its better to leave yourself in the dark, and somehow romanticize that a lack of knowledge brings creativity, you are kidding yourself. You dont want to
put in the work, so you rationalize it. Not to mention its a horrible insult to those
of us who dedicate our lives to it.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2013 1:37:23
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to ToddK

quote:

He just doesnt know the terminology. The terms are not the point. The point
is the understanding.

Paco is an exception. He has an innate talent.


he knows well the terminology , you dont have to be so romantic about it ..an exception .. perhaps .. lots of great musicians are .. I spoke to him and I talked in an interview with Mclaughlin who used to play in a pub in the north east (England ) as a young player .. both talented ... both knew nothing .. both had no terminology ..as you put it .... but believe me , do not fool your self .. Paco does know his terminology....both went out and learned about it in their own way ....

Lots of great players can move into the traditional world or the Jazz world or the modern classical worl d, like J. Williams , and are perfectly at home with the terminology , notwithstanding the different viewpoints...all these ,and more , players have an ' innate talent '

that reminds me I should dig out that interview ...i still have it on tape somewhere ...some here may like it ... ...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2013 2:01:46

ToddK

 

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004
 

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to El Kiko

quote:

he knows well the terminology , you dont have to be so romantic about it ..an exception .. perhaps .. lots of great musicians are .. I spoke to him and I talked in an interview with Mclaughlin who used to play in a pub in the north east (England ) as a young player .. both talented ... both knew nothing .. both had no terminology ..as you put it .... but believe me , do not fool your self .. Paco does know his terminology....both went out and learned about it in their own way ....


second time in this thread you fail to understand what i'm talking about.

I dont have time to explain anymore. :)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2013 3:42:11
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria

I'm always fascinated when people are obsessed with "but he doesn't read a note of music" or "he never even went to school to learn music."

Speaking about school, i don't think he wasted a lot of time visiting regular schools as well. If i'm not mistaken he dropped school at a very young age (12?) in order to be able to play/study flamenco 24/7. On top of 12 hours of study a day (over a 10 year period) his house was crowded with top class artists of all disciplines of flamenco. It probably was the last thing he heard before going to bed and the first thing he heard when waking up, day in day out, year in year out. He basically enjoyed the best flamenco school you can wish for and on top worked his but off every single day with extreme discipline.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2013 10:17:11
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to ToddK

quote:

ORIGINAL: ToddK

second time in this thread you fail to understand what i'm talking about.

I dont have time to explain anymore. :)

You did an excellent job the first time :-).
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2013 11:04:28
 
Luka

 

Posts: 16
Joined: Oct. 30 2011
 

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to Erik van Goch

quote:

Speaking about school, i don't think he wasted a lot of time visiting regular schools as well. If i'm not mistaken he dropped school at a very young age (12?) in order to be able to play/study flamenco 24/7. On top of 12 hours of study a day (over a 10 year period) his house was crowded with top class artists of all disciplines of flamenco. It probably was the last thing he heard before going to bed and the first thing he heard when waking up, day in day out, year in year out. He basically enjoyed the best flamenco school you can wish for and on top worked his but off every single day with extreme discipline.


A bit off topic but this is how in my opinion a perfect society should function, which is recognizing a special talent in an individual and helping him develop it. Paco is a perfect example. Even though he dropped regular school at a very early age, he was able to find happiness (with the help of people around him) just by following and nourishing his special talent. By doing that he also made other people happy including all of us here.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2013 11:25:42
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to Luka

quote:

ORIGINAL: Luka

A bit off topic but this is how in my opinion a perfect society should function, which is recognizing a special talent in an individual and helping him develop it. Paco is a perfect example. Even though he dropped regular school at a very early age, he was able to find happiness (with the help of people around him) just by following and nourishing his special talent. By doing that he also made other people happy including all of us here.

Amen. One of the biggest school blunders in the Netherlands was when government terminated the so called ambachtsschool, a school were young people who were not talented or interested to go to a "normal" school were allowed to learn a profession of their interest, for instance becoming an all round carpenter or welder. But suddenly government decided that was a waste of their potential brain capacity (as if manual labor does not demand a brain as well), they closed down all schools based on learning a hand based profession and forced those people to go to a regular school. Many of them did not flourish there and became dropouts without diploma, special skills or future. On top it resulted in a lack of skilled professionals. I have never understand why manual labor (like building or playing the guitar) so often is underrated/appreciated compared to brain based jobs like being a doctor, lawyer or minister, especially since they can make extremely stupid decisions. Funny enough professional football players score extremely well on the field of public/financial appreciation, they even beat the top chess players :-).
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2013 12:26:46
 
mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to Luka

quote:

Speaking about school, i don't think he wasted a lot of time visiting regular schools as well. If i'm not mistaken he dropped school at a very young age (12?) in order to be able to play/study flamenco 24/7.

If I remember well at 12, he was already touring in USA. So he might have letf school earlier. I wonder if he ever went to school

quote:

A bit off topic but this is how in my opinion a perfect society should function, which is recognizing a special talent in an individual and helping him develop it. Paco is a perfect example.

His example and an other one as the king of pop MJ. have in common one thing, a TYRANIC father (and of course also a talented personality).
That's nothing to do with perfect society IMO.
From time to time someone post YT link about these 'cute' north korean baby player...

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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2013 12:42:45
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to mezzo

quote:

ORIGINAL: mezzo


If I remember well at 12, he was already touring in USA. So he might have left school earlier. I wonder if he ever went to school

I believe he was 14 or 15 then.. but you might be right about not attending school at all.

quote:

quote:

A bit off topic but this is how in my opinion a perfect society should function, which is recognizing a special talent in an individual and helping him develop it. Paco is a perfect example.

His example and an other one as the king of pop MJ. have in common one thing, a TYRANIC father (and of course also a talented personality).
That's nothing to do with perfect society IMO.
From time to time someone post YT link about these 'cute' north korean baby player...

True as well. I have mixed feeling myself about the North Korean girl i posted a couple of times (her name is Kang Eunju). I have no idea about the kind of life the kindergarden she attended offers. Still the fact that whole society is suppressed does not give me reason to close the door for that wonderful girl. All i can do is admire her incredible musical talent and hope she is well and happy.

I have at least equal problems with "cute" American baby girls who are running for miss universe and are doomed to see there world collapse when "against all odds" they loose the local contest, or with a society that tells an absolute beauty that she is not fit for modeling because she is 2 inches to long or unfortunately has eaten something during the past year (they are supposed to be as skinny as a bone and to look like drugged zombies).
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2013 13:14:10
 
tele

Posts: 1468
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to Erik van Goch

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik van Goch


I have at least equal problems with "cute" American baby girls who are running for miss universe and are doomed to see there world collapse when "against all odds" they loose the local contest, or with a society that tells an absolute beauty that she is not fit for modeling because she is 2 inches to long or unfortunately has eaten something during the past year (they are supposed to be as skinny as a bone and to look like drugged zombies).


Check out the new movie "bad grandpa" part with the baby girls beauty pageant contest where they dress up the boy as a girl

I think there is a revolution going on
Altough I'm not sure if you meant with baby girls the children who are going for the "miss something" title. It's even worse than the adult modeling

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2013 14:18:40
 
Luka

 

Posts: 16
Joined: Oct. 30 2011
 

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to Erik van Goch

quote:

Amen. One of the biggest school blunders in the Netherlands was when government terminated the so called ambachtsschool, a school were young people who were not talented or interested to go to a "normal" school were allowed to learn a profession of their interest, for instance becoming an all round carpenter or welder. But suddenly government decided that was a waste of their potential brain capacity (as if manual labor does not demand a brain as well), they closed down all schools based on learning a hand based profession and forced those people to go to a regular school. Many of them did not flourish there and became dropouts without diploma, special skills or future. On top it resulted in a lack of skilled professionals. I have never understand why manual labor (like building or playing the guitar) so often is underrated/appreciated compared to brain based jobs like being a doctor, lawyer or minister, especially since they can make extremely stupid decisions. Funny enough professional football players score extremely well on the field of public/financial appreciation, they even beat the top chess players.



This way you "create" a lot of miserable people and the whole society eventually becomes tired and sick I guess...

We should help someone who kicks the ball very well. He/she'll become a happy person and he/she will make other people around him/her happy as well.

Well that's only my opinion.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2013 14:57:05
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to tele

quote:

ORIGINAL: tele
Check out the new movie "bad grandpa" part with the baby girls beauty pageant contest where they dress up the boy as a girl

I think there is a revolution going on
Altough I'm not sure if you meant with baby girls the children who are going for the "miss something" title. It's even worse than the adult modeling

I did indeed refer to those events. I've seen behind the scene documentaries were children totally broke after losing. Basically of the 100 contesters 1 wins, 99 have the worst day of there life (once a week because there parents travel to every contest that is willing to include them).
Being a hard-core film fan myself (funny to realize the double meaning of "hard-core" in this context, depending to which word it refers) i've obviously seen "bad grandpa" and i **** my pants laughing during that scene. The contest attenders/audience reactions were genuine and absolutely priceless. A small part is included in the trailer.

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2013 14:59:46
 
Luka

 

Posts: 16
Joined: Oct. 30 2011
 

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to mezzo

quote:

His example and an other one as the king of pop MJ. have in common one thing, a TYRANIC father (and of course also a talented personality).
That's nothing to do with perfect society IMO.
From time to time someone post YT link about these 'cute' north korean baby player...


True, but I was thinking more about the environment (people & teachers) and educational system that could provide an appropriate guidance and help for development of individual's special talent. Of course I'm against any kind of tyranny. Although who's the one who can decide who's more brainwashed, us or them? Paco as a grown man is probably the only one who could pass the judgement whether he was a victim of a tyrant or not...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2013 15:13:22
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to Luka

quote:

ORIGINAL: Luka

quote:

erik: Funny enough professional football players score extremely well on the field of public/financial appreciation, they even beat the top chess players.

We should help someone who kicks the ball very well. He/she'll become a happy person and he/she will make other people around him/her happy as well.

Well that's only my opinion.

I agree and only added it because it is funny that the line of financial appreciation seems to be manual work>brainy work>feet work..... up to a point were "hands" even become a negative word when used on a football field :-)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2013 15:26:44
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14965
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to kudo

Seems many people like to talk and talk and talk about "theory" even though they have not studied it. It's kind of amusing how the word gets tossed around. The flamenco's think it is mysterious and difficult and even scary. Many other types of musicians that don't study it too. It's the circle of 5ths and that is ALL it refers to pretty much. One could learn it in a day (that plays well in their own discipline) and then ace any college level courses.

Different musics have different disciplines. Theory as a "tool" means different things to different disciplines of music. Theory does not apply the same way for a jazz player as a classical player. The important thing here is DISCIPLINE. When flamencos are attracted to jazz it's not the theory its the discipline that they find interesting. But they don't know that so they are confused and think note reading theory etYou can't learn a different genre of music via a different discipline MORE efficiently than the one it was born from.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2013 19:09:31
 
mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to Luka

quote:

True, but I was thinking more about the environment (people & teachers) and educational system that could provide an appropriate guidance and help for development of individual's special talent. Of course I'm against any kind of tyranny. Although who's the one who can decide who's more brainwashed, us or them? Paco as a grown man is probably the only one who could pass the judgement whether he was a victim of a tyrant or not...

I understood your point. I reacted to your post coz of the underline idea of perfect society. Look it's difficult to make a point out of some foro sentences. So I probably stereotype my thoughts but I don't think that Paco complained about his father behavior at all.
What we shouldn't do is to view his story in relation to our present time coz that's not a correct focus. I mean the context of his youth is the Franco didatorship society so, if you transpose this to nowaday era without focusing on the context then something might sound out of compas...so to speak

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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2013 19:22:43
 
Luka

 

Posts: 16
Joined: Oct. 30 2011
 

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to mezzo

quote:

I understood your point. I reacted to your post coz of the underline idea of perfect society. Look it's difficult to make a point out of some foro sentences. So I probably stereotype my thoughts but I don't think that Paco complained about his father behavior at all.
What we shouldn't do is to view his story in relation to our present time coz that's not a correct focus. I mean the context of his youth is the Franco didatorship society so, if you transpose this to nowaday era without focusing on the context then something might sound out of compas...so to speak


Well I guess I got some of the beats right.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2013 20:03:50
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to tele

Being the son of a multi talented classical/flamenco guitar teacher i know both the advantages and disadvantages of (depending on) music notation and theory. It actually was the beginning of the friendship between my father and Paco Peña, who met during a guitar course in Mettmann in the early 80ties. My father was attending a lute corse (which turned out to be to simple for him) and Paco was giving a flamenco corse and experiencing some huge problems himself. His students turned out to be classical guitar players, well trained in music theory/music notation but not able to learn/play a single note by ear. Paco on his turn was only trained in the tradition of monkey see monkey do and was not able to offer them the notes on paper. When my father joined in he saved the day because he excels in both. So during the night my father made transcriptions for Paco's next days lessons and in return Paco paid my fathers flamenco course at Rotterdam Conservatory a visit. A couple of years later when Rotterdam Conservatory asked Paco to start a full time flamenco course at master level he agreed on condition my father would join in as well. As seen above (lack of) music theory/notation can have its drawbacks. Paco really regrets he is not able to write notes himself because up to today he is depending on others to do his transcriptions (for teaching purposes, publications or making/sharing arrangements with non flamenco artist like the various choirs he worked with).

Back to my father. In his performing years (he spend over 20.000 hours on stage) he was the composer/arranger of the band and added various pieces a week to their repertoire. They performed 6 hours a day, 363 days a year and could play for a week without having to repeat a single piece. Over the years he met and played with many artists. Some were able to play complex music from paper at full speed without any preparation (some were even able to read it in one key and play it in another key simultaneously) others were not able to read a single note. One of my fathers guitar students was a musical genius and for a performance in a big concert hall he was asked to play the banjo part. He borrowed my fathers banjo, unpacked it for the first time when entering the stage and gave a flawless performance, playing an instrument he had never played in a tuning unknown to him and on top reading a music sheet that had to be played in another key.

When my father met trio Siboney (3 voices, 3 guitars) he was very surprised to see there creative process. Although they were known for their tasteful arrangements making them seemed to be a struggle. They had no idea were to begin, tried out all possible variations in voicing and after days of struggle would end up with a piece that had exactly the same type of voicing as all there other pieces. Dude to their lack of professional approach they had to re-invent the wheel over and over again. My father could have made the same arrangement within an hour.

Not everything that is new to flamenco is new to music. Some of the alternative chord lines introduced to flamenco by Paco de Lucia and others were already used in similar ways in other kinds of music and probably would have found their way to flamenco sooner if classical music theory had been part of their life. I'm talking about the option to replace one chord for another (like in a standard alegrias copla playing #Fm in stead of B7) or to ad in between dominants at various places (so E>B7 becomes E>(#C7)>#Fm). When a student played Paco that beautiful granainas falsetsa by Gerardo Nuñez both Paco and my father disliked it, claiming it was a cheap copy of what they called American music. Still, when i asked them to name me an example of that music they could not offer me an example. But i must admit that when my father questioned the lack of musical and rhythmic variation in the tanquillos falsetas known to him he managed to make one himself that was quit agreeable. He simply took a couple of rhythmic variations he thought were overlooked so far and made some beautiful flamenco lines around it. It soon became one of the students favorite tanquillos endings but up to today not 1 of them was able to play the final cadence correctly because they all struggle with the rhythmic subtleties involved, despite the fact some of them are very experienced players. I can't blame them nor improve them because in all honesty i was never able to master the rhythm of tanguillos myself. Paco Peña never took tanguillos very seriously because he considers it to be a silly piece. When he was asked to compose a tanguillos falseta he instantly made one up that was extremely modern and exiting.

I already mentioned that classical players who have played from paper all their live can become a prisoner of written notes. A friend of me once was commissioned to make a music transcription of a famous song that had to be performed by a group of classical guitar teachers on stage. When i stated the offered 25 guiders was not a lot of money for all the work involved (the baselines were full of cyncopations) she surprised me stating she only had to list the chord progression, which left me totally flabbergasted since the song involved was called....... bambalabamba. The other side of the coin is that when i joined Flairck in their meeting with Wim Witteman (who happened to lecture music theory and composition at Utrecht Conservatory) asking him to arrange a Flairck piece for a symphonic orquestra he was able to play the handed partiture on his piano straight from paper in the same way we you and i read a book...in this case however he did not read a piano part (that didn't exist) but made an instant piano arrangement of the 4 voices of the violin, flute, base and guitar added together. Next he demonstrated a world of possibilities for adding new voices. That would be comparable with us being able to read 4 lines of text simultaneously wile making an instant analyses of the intent and formulating an answer (i actually met someone once who was able to read multiple lines of text simultaneously but he could only retell the content after his brain was allowed to digest the text a couple of hours.... how the hell do you discover you can do that???).

The first task i was given when studying music theory myself was to make a composition. I included a very nice chord that was rejected by my teacher for unclear reasons. The chord he suggested would totally destroy my composition and it really made me wonder what the hell i was doing there. I confronted my father with it and he just raised his shoulder claiming some people for unclear reasons liked 3 identical chords on a row more then one odd one in between, disturbing the paper line up. I had similar argues later on. One composition that was rejected on a couple of notes had to be returned as a final exam piece. Since i rejected the rejection i returned it a couple of mounts later without altering a note. I didn't even bother to refresh the page involved so the red pencil marks were still there. During that final exam a second teacher was present who asked why the hell that red disapproval mark was there.... the teacher who put it there had to admit he could not see anything wrong on second sight :-).

So my own years of studying music theory did not pass without a couple of firm disagreements on the field of harmony/arrangement because like paco i didn't know how to name things but i most certainly was able to distinguish good from bad. Still i'm very glad with what i learned and i know for a fact music theory (especially rhythm and phrasing) highly improved my abilities as a musician. Annotations often helped me analyze/deduct what was going on and despite listening to it hundreds of times i never noticed Vicente made 4 capital compas mistakes in his debut soleares until i tried to play it myself and my music sheet clearly showed there were only 11 beats in the compas. Do you need music theory to find that out, not really, Vicente himself discovered his mistake as well (after a couple of years).

Various times Paco Peña has forgotten a piece and had to be kickstarted by my father playing him the forgotten parts from partiture after which Paco would be able to play the piece again before you knew it. Paco once had to perform a non flamenco piece on stage with only a written score available. So in between the guitar lessons they gave to their students (1 hour a student sometimes over 10 on a row) they used the time students needed to (un)pack their guitar for a quick exchange of notes based on monkey see monkey do with my father playing the written score and Paco trying to memorize them (a few notes at the time) . At the end of the day my father was not able to remember a single note wile Paco could play the piece like it was on his repertoire for years. Some brains work more efficient then others and the brain of people like Wim Witterman, Paco de Lucia, Paco Peña and John Williams simply work on a totally different level then that of normal human beings, music wise.

Can music theory limit your abilities as a musician? It does when you become a prisoner of written notes and suddenly have to play music that does not exist on paper. Can a lack of theory limit your possibilities as a musician? It does when you are not able to communicate with whoever need written scores (you can call that their problem), have to perform music with people who are not familiar with flamenco, or have to play a piece yourself that is only available on paper. Fabulous musicians can be found on both sides of the coin. Music theory would not have improved Paco de Lucia's compositions (only speeded up some developments) although my father always has considered his sexted to be pretty amateurish from an arranging point of view. Like Todd stated, Paco might not know how to name things, he most certainly knows how to implement things and his understanding of music theory is impeccable.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2013 20:12:18
 
aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to tele

quote:

Paco as a grown man is probably the only one who could pass the judgement whether he was a victim of a tyrant or not...


John Williams and Ida Presti comparing notes. agreed that they had no childhood.
John was started on the guitar at age 4 and at 12 presented to Segovia, possessing a mastery of the instrument. They seem to bear no ill will toward their fathers. but they were spectacular success'. One wonders how those less innately gifted fared. Childhood is a difficult but magical time. But very fragile.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2013 20:31:37
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
 

[Deleted] 

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 4 2013 22:10:30
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2013 20:38:23
 
aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to tele

quote:

If i'm not mistaken Ida had a very natural technique first but was forced to play differently to get a bigger sound


I have read she did play off the right side of her fingers but I never heard how she arrived at this which was different from the Segovia style. She wrote of her distress that Segovia had not given her career a boost when she needed it and playing in a duet obscured her individuality. I think she was a chain smoker like Tarrega and it must have contributed to her early death. Jack Duarte heard all the greats of that generation and thought she was the best. Her course of study was based on Aguado and she wrote that afterwards she could play anything.

If you want to learn the technique see here:


Good grief! check out her fingers! the i is longer than the rest. My i is about a 1/2 inch shorter than the m and a. Sorry about English measurement. We in the states have not accepted metric.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2013 21:05:14
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
 

[Deleted] 

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 4 2013 22:10:57
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2013 22:08:29
 
timoteo

 

Posts: 219
Joined: Jun. 22 2012
From: Seattle, USA

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to aeolus

quote:

Good grief! check out her fingers! the i is longer than the rest.


How did you come up with a wacky conclusion like that? It's easily disproven by observation. See her left hand at 0:50 and following for a nice view of her fingers lying relaxed next to each other. 3:28+ for a nice view of the right hand. Surprise, it's the same as the left. There are many other places where this is obvious.

quote:

My i is about a 1/2 inch shorter than the m and a. Sorry about English measurement. We in the states have not accepted metric.


Speak for yourself. Many of us native Americans are perfectly comfortable using metric. If you feel compelled to convert but you personally have no clue about metric and no access to google, just say so.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2013 23:12:07
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to ToddK

quote:

ORIGINAL: ToddK

The more deeply a musician understands his/her language, the more expressive
and communicative he/she can be.



Don't know how anyone could argue with that!

My point refers mostly to the confusion between a superficial ability to name chords, scales, read music, etc; and a functional ability to use one's chosen tools. I have met many people who would instantly downgrade a musician if he was a) self-taught, b) couldn't read music, c) didn't go to school for music. I have heard too many ignorant comments about really good musicians who are disrespected because they have never academically studied. The more tools the better, but they're not the main event.

_____________________________

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Arizona Wedding Music Guitar
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 4 2013 2:25:35
 
aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to tele

quote:



Good grief! check out her fingers! the i is longer than the rest.


How did you come up with a wacky conclusion like that? It's easily disproven by observation. See her left hand at 0:50 and following for a nice view of her fingers lying relaxed next to each other. 3:28+ for a nice view of the right hand. Surprise, it's the same as the left. There are many other places where this is obvious.


My i is about a 1/2 inch shorter than the m and a. Sorry about English measurement. We in the states have not accepted metric.


Speak for yourself. Many of us native Americans are perfectly comfortable using metric. If you feel compelled to convert but you personally have no clue about metric and no access to google, just say so.



Good grief! check out her fingers! the i is longer than the rest.


How did you come up with a wacky conclusion like that? It's easily disproven by observation. See her left hand at 0:50 and following for a nice view of her fingers lying relaxed next to each other. 3:28+ for a nice view of the right hand. Surprise, it's the same as the left. There are many other places where this is obvious.



My i is about a 1/2 inch shorter than the m and a. Sorry about English measurement. We in the states have not accepted metric.


Speak for yourself. Many of us native Americans are perfectly comfortable using metric. If you feel compelled to convert but you personally have no clue about metric and no access to google, just say so.




I was being facetious about metric tho it wasn't to long ago that NASA lost a probe over Mars when the civilian contractor on the project used English measurement and NASA used metric.

Native American? What tribe?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 4 2013 10:41:54
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14965
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to aeolus

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus

quote:

If i'm not mistaken Ida had a very natural technique first but was forced to play differently to get a bigger sound


I have read she did play off the right side of her fingers but I never heard how she arrived at this which was different from the Segovia style. She wrote of her distress that Segovia had not given her career a boost when she needed it and playing in a duet obscured her individuality. I think she was a chain smoker like Tarrega and it must have contributed to her early death. Jack Duarte heard all the greats of that generation and thought she was the best. Her course of study was based on Aguado and she wrote that afterwards she could play anything.

If you want to learn the technique see here:


Good grief! check out her fingers! the i is longer than the rest. My i is about a 1/2 inch shorter than the m and a. Sorry about English measurement. We in the states have not accepted metric.


Then, after lots of talking the woman plays of the LEFT side of her nail...

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 4 2013 15:42:53
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