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RE: chord theory question soleares
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scottszone
Posts: 3
Joined: Apr. 26 2017
From: Austin, Texas
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RE: chord theory question soleares (in reply to guitarbuddha)
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Solea chords and scales are an interplay of two tonalities - Phrygian Dominant and Phrygian. Only difference is the G# (major 3rd) in Phrygian Dominant, and G (minor 3rd) in Phrygian. E Phrygian Dominant E F G# A B C D (5th mode of A Harmonic Minor) Intervals - 1, minor 2, major 3, perfect 4, perfect 5, minor 6, minor 7 E Phrygian E F G A B C D (3rd Mode of C Major, or 5th mode of A Natural Minor) Intervals - 1, minor 2, minor 3, perfect 4, perfect 5, minor 6, minor 7 The Chords are mostly derived from Phrygian (E, F, G, A-, C, D-), except the I chord (E, E7, E7b9) from Phrygian Dominant. The chords will support either scale and both are often mixed or combined together in the melodies and scale runs. Combining the notes of both scales creates an 8 note scale that includes G & G#. This is sometimes called a gypsy scale.
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Date Jun. 24 2017 1:01:35
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estebanana
Posts: 9359
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: chord theory question soleares (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
quote: I did not pick it up in any post, but probably should say also the Andaluz cadence ends in a major chord. So that is the reason the key center feels resolved on E major Well, that implies that all minor key compositions should use the Picardy third at the end of phrases, which is not necessary. Further the Andalusian candence is a vague description of what happens in flamenco simply because the same cadence (Am-G-F-E) might be used por Arriba as in a piece in A minor. The candential info for either case is actually more simple...F-E por Arriba and E-Am for Am. The rest is color. Ricardo The actual resolution is the F to E step sure, but I was saying the reason is "feels" resolved is because of the stepwise context of a drop down to into E major. from Am It sets of an expectation of finality. Like in blues a typical riff will rise step wise maybe twice to set up an emotional or color tension, or call it what you will, but the decent back to a tonic gives you the resolution. To me at least, that waking down the staircase from Am to E maj sets up the resolution emotionally. Even though the 123 count in Solea is that drop Am G F, theh F holds the most tension. I think the drop into F from Am is important to feeling the resolution because this gives the F a context to be heard against. That is not really talking hard theory, so I'm not rationalizing that is means anything else in any other key center. However, when you toggle back and forth between A to B flat in bulerias it never feels fully resolved even though technically it is. What makes it have a finality is the close, and to me it is a dual action finality brought about by a drop from higher pitched chords and a rhythmic cadence. The rhythmic cadence alone is not enough to resolve with Ummph from B flat to A, it also needs a higher chord sequence to step down from. Just my opinion that is not explaining this as pure harmonic theory. I believe this is a learned cadence or sense of home key by familiarity with flamenco palos. You learn to feel it as resolved as you learn to understand the music. Like Eric said, some classical people hear it as A minor, I think over time for a listener, due to the Andaluz context, the E takes on more tonic weight. I propose that a perceptual shift occurs if the Am G F decent is super posed over a phyrgian mode in the way it is in Solea. I think the feel of the tonic E in Solea is a Jedi Mind Trick that flamenco plays on a well tuned listener.
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Date Jun. 30 2017 2:51:36
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Ricardo
Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: chord theory question soleares (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana quote:
quote: I did not pick it up in any post, but probably should say also the Andaluz cadence ends in a major chord. So that is the reason the key center feels resolved on E major Well, that implies that all minor key compositions should use the Picardy third at the end of phrases, which is not necessary. Further the Andalusian candence is a vague description of what happens in flamenco simply because the same cadence (Am-G-F-E) might be used por Arriba as in a piece in A minor. The candential info for either case is actually more simple...F-E por Arriba and E-Am for Am. The rest is color. Ricardo The actual resolution is the F to E step sure, but I was saying the reason is "feels" resolved is because of the stepwise context of a drop down to into E major. from Am It sets of an expectation of finality. Like in blues a typical riff will rise step wise maybe twice to set up an emotional or color tension, or call it what you will, but the decent back to a tonic gives you the resolution. To me at least, that waking down the staircase from Am to E maj sets up the resolution emotionally. Even though the 123 count in Solea is that drop Am G F, theh F holds the most tension. I think the drop into F from Am is important to feeling the resolution because this gives the F a context to be heard against. That is not really talking hard theory, so I'm not rationalizing that is means anything else in any other key center. However, when you toggle back and forth between A to B flat in bulerias it never feels fully resolved even though technically it is. What makes it have a finality is the close, and to me it is a dual action finality brought about by a drop from higher pitched chords and a rhythmic cadence. The rhythmic cadence alone is not enough to resolve with Ummph from B flat to A, it also needs a higher chord sequence to step down from. Just my opinion that is not explaining this as pure harmonic theory. I believe this is a learned cadence or sense of home key by familiarity with flamenco palos. You learn to feel it as resolved as you learn to understand the music. Like Eric said, some classical people hear it as A minor, I think over time for a listener, due to the Andaluz context, the E takes on more tonic weight. I propose that a perceptual shift occurs if the Am G F decent is super posed over a phyrgian mode in the way it is in Solea. I think the feel of the tonic E in Solea is a Jedi Mind Trick that flamenco plays on a well tuned listener. I agree with you that the cadences of flamenco are "learned" over time and practice, also agree that "toggling back and forth" in por medio might not seem "resolved" as it's also referred to as "modal vamping", but must disagree with everything else you said, sorry. My reasons that I disagree with your points, I will put forth that Am never need to occur at anytime what so ever in a perfectly resolved Solea performance, the "closure" your ear requires need not have a decending progression of any kind, chords can ascend or jump around in different ways, (por medio example, F, Gm, Bb/Ab, A is a cadence, C, Gm,Bb,A, or Db,C, Gm, A etc all cadence just fine) and finally, "rhythmic cadence alone" is in fact the key to the whole thing that needs to be "learned over time", think palo seco examples of dance. Now, while I agreed above that the toggling vamp is "ok" in terms of SOUNDING unresolved, it needs to eventually be learned as actually a "V-I" movement, and this is again a rhythmic thing...to prove it I can give you a "wrong" example of "toggling back and forth" by reversing the two chords. You will see what I mean, that your inherent feeling will recognize why one chord sequence over the other is correct and the other is NOT...and the reason for that is because there is resolution going on that is NOT happening with proper "vamping". FURTHER....proper vamping involves a single mode or scale that relates the two non tonal harmonies....where as the "toggling back and forth" implies, melodically, TWO different scales....the Bb lydian scale and the 5th mode of D harmonic minor (A phrygian dominant), which is a tonal concept rather than a modal one.
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Date Jun. 30 2017 16:45:45
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estebanana
Posts: 9359
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: chord theory question soleares (in reply to guitarbuddha)
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quote:
I agree with you that the cadences of flamenco are "learned" over time and practice, also agree that "toggling back and forth" in por medio might not seem "resolved" as it's also referred to as "modal vamping", but must disagree with everything else you said, sorry. My reasons that I disagree with your points, I will put forth that Am never need to occur at anytime what so ever in a perfectly resolved Solea performance, the "closure" your ear requires need not have a decending progression of any kind, chords can ascend or jump around in different ways, (por medio example, F, Gm, Bb/Ab, A is a cadence, C, Gm,Bb,A, or Db,C, Gm, A etc all cadence just fine) and finally, "rhythmic cadence alone" is in fact the key to the whole thing that needs to be "learned over time", think palo seco examples of dance. Now, while I agreed above that the toggling vamp is "ok" in terms of SOUNDING unresolved, it needs to eventually be learned as actually a "V-I" movement, and this is again a rhythmic thing...to prove it I can give you a "wrong" example of "toggling back and forth" by reversing the two chords. You will see what I mean, that your inherent feeling will recognize why one chord sequence over the other is correct and the other is NOT...and the reason for that is because there is resolution going on that is NOT happening with proper "vamping". FURTHER....proper vamping involves a single mode or scale that relates the two non tonal harmonies....where as the "toggling back and forth" implies, melodically, TWO different scales....the Bb lydian scale and the 5th mode of D harmonic minor (A phrygian dominant), which is a tonal concept rather than a modal one. I'm on day three of reading this, I'm trying to get it...but it's confusing.
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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Jul. 3 2017 1:12:10
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