RE: chord theory question soleares (Full Version)

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guitarbuddha -> RE: chord theory question soleares (Oct. 18 2013 12:53:08)

Here is a piece by Biber.



It uses the andalucian cadence as a basis for a passacaglia. Gm F7 EbMaj D7(b9).
More recognisable in E, Am G7 Fmaj7 E7b9


Break it down into pairs and go round the cycle.

Am/Dm G7/Cmaj7 Fmaj/B7(tritone sub) E7b9/G#dim



You get 'Fly me to the moon' or 'Entre dos Aguas' or 'I will survive' or the first sixteen bars of 'All the things you are'. Depending on how you tweak it.


The problem with mosty theory books and the way theory is taught is that they start off with a special case (the first Viennese school and sonata form) and act like this is the root of all harmony.


The roots are much much older. Rennaisance pieces are just chock a block with Phrygian Major pieces which function in exactly the same way as flamenco. They have shared roots which probably go as far back as the first musical instruments.


And for every 'complicated' Jazz standard there is a three chord nursery rhyme from the thirteenth century dying to get out.


D.



Erik van Goch -> RE: chord theory question soleares (Oct. 18 2013 13:10:46)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

most if not all teachers/professors of music theory/harmony will regard soleares to be written in Am


I would agree with what you write here.... but add that they are wrong!


Consider that done.

quote:

another point to make is that many flamencos will say that solea is "in" E major, because that is the home chord, the home tone etc.


Point made :-)



Erik van Goch -> RE: chord theory question soleares (Oct. 18 2013 13:28:08)

quote:

ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha
The roots are much much older. Rennaisance pieces are just chock a block with Phrygian Major pieces which function in exactly the same way as flamenco. They have shared roots which probably go as far back as the first musical instruments.

D.


My father played Paco a couple of "free pieces" of that period on his historical instruments (his first love) and Paco was amazed about how flamenco it was, the music, the interpretations, the improvisations, the techniques (incl. lots of rasgueado), everything (obviously my fathers interpretation is colored by years of flamenco experience but still). Players on period painting don't hold their right hand like modern day performers of that music, they hold them like modern day flamenco players.... we tend to believe those old techniques survived in Spain guitar practice because unlike the rest of europe they continued playing the instrument when it became less popular elsewhere, ensuring a direct and uninterriupted line with the past



mark indigo -> RE: chord theory question soleares (Oct. 18 2013 22:50:51)

quote:

It uses the andalucian cadence as a basis for a passacaglia. Gm F7 EbMaj D7(b9).
More recognisable in E, Am G7 Fmaj7 E7b9


Break it down into pairs and go round the cycle.

Am/Dm G7/Cmaj7 Fmaj/B7(tritone sub) E7b9/G#dim



You get 'Fly me to the moon' or 'Entre dos Aguas' or 'I will survive' or the first sixteen bars of 'All the things you are'. Depending on how you tweak it.


nice piece. I like Bach, but never heard of "Biber" before.... but sounds minor to me, like it wants to resolve back to the minor chord at end of the cadence. I hear Solea/Bulerias differently in that they really stay on the major chord at the end of the cadence. I know what you mean about "fly me to the moon" and "I will survive" etc. I'm aware of how those things have similarity to flamenco cadence. I used to play round Autumn Leaves with a mate who played jazz/rock and I think that's similar too (or at least it was the way we played it, but again it felt like the resolution was back to the minor chord).

I have also listened to some renaissance music and I think I know what you mean, I always assumed it was like the harmony was more in development and more in flux then than it later became....?



guitarbuddha -> RE: chord theory question soleares (Oct. 18 2013 23:41:56)

I agree completely Mark. It is all about intent. In the Biber the phrases tend to point towards the presumed minor tonic. Whereas the exact same harmonic rhythm in solea is normally accompanied by phrases which 'settle' on the phrygian.

What really brought this to life for me was studying 'All The Things Your Are'. To my ears all of the harmony in the opening is derived from the andalucian cadence and the direction is set in the first two bars. But a conventional jazz/classical analysis suggests that there are many changes of direction. I don't hear that at all I hear only a surprise when the resolution is to a Maj7 chord and not to a b9.

Biber is often regarded as the model that Bach studied (and as always surpassed) in preparation for his solo violin works and in particular the Chaconne.

Rodrigo reprised the Biber in his Three Spanish Pieces, of which the Fandango is well know but the Passacaglia/Fandango/Fugue is for me the crowning glory.

Autumn leaves is the same thing but with all chords one place to the right in the harmonic scheme ( instead of Am/Dm to G7/C etc it would be Dm/G7 to CMaj Fmaj etc). This changes entirely which Chords occur in the structural positions and with that well everything else. I think that Ricardo and I agree that a lot of theory textbooks ignore the position of a chord sequence within the structure and thus miss this this very very important distinction.

For me Rennaisance harmony is no more or less developed than any other. It is what it is and it is beautiful. As the various harmonic languages have developed then composers have been able to incorporate elements from each of them into their own works as suits their taste and sense of form. Our shared experience of the different and incredibly strong chord sequences which underly these harmonic worlds have allowed composers, and Paco more than most, to move freely between them when they have a strong enough sense of harmonic rhythm. When it is done well we immersed and convinced and do not see the joins unless we choose to 'look under the hood'(Jason Macguire).

Jason talks about these things here with rare authority

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=239862&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=&tmode=&smode=&s=#240086

D.



Erik van Goch -> RE: chord theory question soleares (Oct. 19 2013 0:12:50)

quote:

ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha


Autumn leaves is the same thing but with all chords one place to the right in the harmonic scheme ( instead of Am/Dm to G7/C etc it would be Dm/G7 to CMaj Fmaj etc).

I favor Dm7 myself but share the other colors :-)
I actually made a very nice rumba on that song as a project for my music theory (a bit in the style of rio ancho).



guitarbuddha -> RE: chord theory question soleares (Oct. 19 2013 0:28:59)

Hi Eric.

There is a wonderful book on harmony by Conrad Cork called 'Harmony With Lego Bricks'

Whenever I see a minor chord, eg Dm, then I will automatically add a colour tone. Dm subs for F6 and whenever it is functioning as a ii chord I would add a c (minor seventh) as a matter of course. If Dm is the presumed minor tonic of the moment then I would add a sixth which would emphasize its tonic nature in the moment. I might also choose to play melodic material based on Dm6 when Dm is part of a ii V pair when I want to play lines which sound minor but which function over the structural harmony of the V as Vsus with the root omitted.

But then I dont get out much [:D]

D.



vigrond -> RE: chord theory question soleares (Oct. 19 2013 23:12:30)

Just want to say thank you to all who replied. That was a much more massive answer to come back to than I anticipated 0.0

But I think I'm starting to "get it".

Will have to look into these multiple roots stuff.



mark indigo -> RE: chord theory question soleares (Oct. 21 2013 14:49:11)

quote:

There is a wonderful book on harmony by Conrad Cork called 'Harmony With Lego Bricks'


I looked up this book, and found a free pdf of the introduction here

http://sendmemusic.com/media/TL058T_intro.pdf

really interesting. If I had the cash spare I would buy it, but to be honest I don't have the time to devote to the study of jazz. What time I do have I spend working on flamenco, as although I appreciate jazz, flamenco comes first. I might get the book anyway sometime when I can afford it as the ideas and approach to learning look really interesting. What he says about Western European Art Music and Jazz I think also applies to WEAM and Flamenco. What he says about Jazz, Standards and lyrics - if there was a book like this but about Flamenco, Cante and letras, I would have ordered it instantly whether I could afford it or not.



guitarbuddha -> RE: chord theory question soleares (Oct. 21 2013 14:59:23)

Hey Mark glad you found that and thanks posting the link. This kind of material takes a long time to settle, at least it does for me.

And if there was a book that does this for flamenco I too would like to know about it.


These might be candidates.

http://www.flamencoexport.com/material-didactico-copia-en/partituras-copia-en/from-the-guitar-flamenco-harmony-vol2-by-claude-worms.html

D.



Ricardo -> RE: chord theory question soleares (Oct. 21 2013 15:14:39)

quote:

What he says about Jazz, Standards and lyrics - if there was a book like this but about Flamenco, Cante and letras, I would have ordered it instantly whether I could afford it or not.


The second encuentro video of Merengue de Cordoba, is essentially, the ultimate "flamenco real book". A bunch of the standards and blue print accompaniments, and typical trad falsetas for accompanying almost all important cantes. A great resource.



Ricardo -> RE: chord theory question soleares (Jun. 23 2017 19:56:56)

This topic comes up a lot and I usually wonder if people get what I mean about flamenco palos like solea being in "phrygian key" rather than simply a mode or scale. Well, I was checking out some Bach Well tempered Clavier stuff (prelude and fugue sets in all 12 major and minor keys of the chromatic scale) and read about one inspiriation for his work originates from ideas of this organist named Fischer. Now Fisher's preludes and fugues are super simple and short compared to Bach, and he doesn't do all 12 major and minor keys however, at a glance I notice the 6th one is not even in major or minor but in E PHRYGIAN. Of course it is nothing flamenco sounding AT ALL, but it uses a few accidentals against the mode that imply harmonic movement away and back to tonic, and frankly I was just surprised such stuff existed. Another short piece with score to complement the larger work, it seems at one time Phrygian almost got going as a key before flamenco came along. I can only imagine if Bach had picked up on it and decided to let us have another 24 pieces in the Well Tempered Clavier, would have been something.

At 7:45 comes the E phrygian prelude and fugue:


And a different short piece with score:



JohnWalshGuitar -> RE: chord theory question soleares (Jun. 23 2017 20:40:37)

Excellent Ricardo, I always explain Phrygian 'key centre' to my students instead of thinking like a mode.
Was also unaware of this music. Will check it out when I'm done with this gig



scottszone -> RE: chord theory question soleares (Jun. 24 2017 1:01:35)

Solea chords and scales are an interplay of two tonalities - Phrygian Dominant and Phrygian. Only difference is the G# (major 3rd) in Phrygian Dominant, and G (minor 3rd) in Phrygian.

E Phrygian Dominant E F G# A B C D (5th mode of A Harmonic Minor)
Intervals - 1, minor 2, major 3, perfect 4, perfect 5, minor 6, minor 7

E Phrygian E F G A B C D (3rd Mode of C Major, or 5th mode of A Natural Minor)
Intervals - 1, minor 2, minor 3, perfect 4, perfect 5, minor 6, minor 7

The Chords are mostly derived from Phrygian (E, F, G, A-, C, D-), except the I chord (E, E7, E7b9) from Phrygian Dominant. The chords will support either scale and both are often mixed or combined together in the melodies and scale runs.

Combining the notes of both scales creates an 8 note scale that includes G & G#. This is sometimes called a gypsy scale.



scottszone -> RE: chord theory question soleares (Jun. 24 2017 1:24:15)

Ricardo has it right, think of the Phrygian sound as a key center derived from a family of related chords, scales, and intervals. Tradition has demonstrated how to use this material within the solea song form and compas. Just playing Phrygian scales and chords won't make it flamenco.

Often notes (or chords) outside of Phyrgian Dominant or Phrygian scale are briefly used to create tension including major 6 (C#), major 7 (D#), and diminished 5th (Bb).



Piwin -> RE: chord theory question soleares (Jun. 24 2017 1:25:50)

Thanks for reviving this thread. Your previous post to rombsix was really enlightening. I'd sort of just gone with "phrygian mode" for lack of anything better. For a while I went for the whole Greek thing but it just never clicked (and here comes the Sanlucar cult to kill me for saying that![8D]). And now I just had this huge duh moment when I read your post saying that the F in solea was a tritone substitution for the dominant. For some reason it had never dawned on me before!
Anyways, thanks!

@scottszone Welcome to the foro!



estebanana -> RE: chord theory question soleares (Jun. 24 2017 11:21:52)

I did not pick it up in any post, but probably should say also the Andaluz cadence ends in a major chord. So that is the reason the key center feels resolved on E major.

So it's a lot more less complex than comparing the whole thing to a 3rd degree scale tone mode.

I once had a falseta in solea por arriba that I came up with ad it had an A flat chord in it. I was told by a very theory savvy pro player that it was not the right chord because it was A flat, not a solea pro arriba chord. I said it sounds right because it's the correct harmonic 'texture' in the right place in the compas. He looked at me for a second and then played the passage and said yep that works.



Ricardo -> RE: chord theory question soleares (Jun. 24 2017 16:20:13)

quote:

I did not pick it up in any post, but probably should say also the Andaluz cadence ends in a major chord. So that is the reason the key center feels resolved on E major


Well, that implies that all minor key compositions should use the Picardy third at the end of phrases, which is not necessary. Further the Andalusian candence is a vague description of what happens in flamenco simply because the same cadence (Am-G-F-E) might be used por Arriba as in a piece in A minor. The candential info for either case is actually more simple...F-E por Arriba and E-Am for Am. The rest is color.

Ricardo



Erik van Goch -> RE: chord theory question soleares (Jun. 24 2017 19:44:23)

All i know is that when flamenco and classical met for the first time at academic level at Rotterdam Conservatory non of the classical based conservatory teachers of music theory and musical history were able te feel solares as being phrygian or as being rooted in the tonality of E like the flamenco department did. To their classical trained ears soleares sounded like Am, in the same way the violin piece on top of this page to me sounds like a minor key. And i'm talking teachers now who lectured me and thousands of others in the art of music theory/history which included all the old church modes (phrygian, dorian etc), melodic and harmonic minor keys etc.



estebanana -> RE: chord theory question soleares (Jun. 30 2017 2:51:36)

quote:

quote:

I did not pick it up in any post, but probably should say also the Andaluz cadence ends in a major chord. So that is the reason the key center feels resolved on E major


Well, that implies that all minor key compositions should use the Picardy third at the end of phrases, which is not necessary. Further the Andalusian candence is a vague description of what happens in flamenco simply because the same cadence (Am-G-F-E) might be used por Arriba as in a piece in A minor. The candential info for either case is actually more simple...F-E por Arriba and E-Am for Am. The rest is color.

Ricardo


The actual resolution is the F to E step sure, but I was saying the reason is "feels" resolved is because of the stepwise context of a drop down to into E major. from Am It sets of an expectation of finality. Like in blues a typical riff will rise step wise maybe twice to set up an emotional or color tension, or call it what you will, but the decent back to a tonic gives you the resolution. To me at least, that waking down the staircase from Am to E maj sets up the resolution emotionally.

Even though the 123 count in Solea is that drop Am G F, theh F holds the most tension. I think the drop into F from Am is important to feeling the resolution because this gives the F a context to be heard against. That is not really talking hard theory, so I'm not rationalizing that is means anything else in any other key center.

However, when you toggle back and forth between A to B flat in bulerias it never feels fully resolved even though technically it is. What makes it have a finality is the close, and to me it is a dual action finality brought about by a drop from higher pitched chords and a rhythmic cadence. The rhythmic cadence alone is not enough to resolve with Ummph from B flat to A, it also needs a higher chord sequence to step down from.

Just my opinion that is not explaining this as pure harmonic theory. I believe this is a learned cadence or sense of home key by familiarity with flamenco palos. You learn to feel it as resolved as you learn to understand the music. Like Eric said, some classical people hear it as A minor, I think over time for a listener, due to the Andaluz context, the E takes on more tonic weight. I propose that a perceptual shift occurs if the Am G F decent is super posed over a phyrgian mode in the way it is in Solea.

I think the feel of the tonic E in Solea is a Jedi Mind Trick that flamenco plays on a well tuned listener.



Erik van Goch -> RE: chord theory question soleares (Jun. 30 2017 13:19:06)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

I believe this is a learned cadence or sense of home key by familiarity with flamenco palos. You learn to feel it as resolved as you learn to understand the music. Like Eric said, some classical people hear it as A minor, I think over time for a listener, due to the Andaluz context, the E takes on more tonic weight.


Exactly how i look at it. The classical trained people i referred to happened to lecture music theory/history at Rotterdam Conservatory and as such were familiar with phrygian modes in church music. Stil they were not able to feel soleares as being E-phrygian because their classical trained ears wanted that final E-chord to resolve into Am.

I remember a discussion with my father that seemed to suggest it actually should not be called Phrygian because if i reminder well somewhere in history it was called differently but became known as phrygian dude to a translation mystique from one culture to another, but i can't recall any details (if i remember well a similar thing happened with the introduction of the german note H).



Ricardo -> RE: chord theory question soleares (Jun. 30 2017 16:45:45)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

quote:

quote:

I did not pick it up in any post, but probably should say also the Andaluz cadence ends in a major chord. So that is the reason the key center feels resolved on E major


Well, that implies that all minor key compositions should use the Picardy third at the end of phrases, which is not necessary. Further the Andalusian candence is a vague description of what happens in flamenco simply because the same cadence (Am-G-F-E) might be used por Arriba as in a piece in A minor. The candential info for either case is actually more simple...F-E por Arriba and E-Am for Am. The rest is color.

Ricardo


The actual resolution is the F to E step sure, but I was saying the reason is "feels" resolved is because of the stepwise context of a drop down to into E major. from Am It sets of an expectation of finality. Like in blues a typical riff will rise step wise maybe twice to set up an emotional or color tension, or call it what you will, but the decent back to a tonic gives you the resolution. To me at least, that waking down the staircase from Am to E maj sets up the resolution emotionally.

Even though the 123 count in Solea is that drop Am G F, theh F holds the most tension. I think the drop into F from Am is important to feeling the resolution because this gives the F a context to be heard against. That is not really talking hard theory, so I'm not rationalizing that is means anything else in any other key center.

However, when you toggle back and forth between A to B flat in bulerias it never feels fully resolved even though technically it is. What makes it have a finality is the close, and to me it is a dual action finality brought about by a drop from higher pitched chords and a rhythmic cadence. The rhythmic cadence alone is not enough to resolve with Ummph from B flat to A, it also needs a higher chord sequence to step down from.

Just my opinion that is not explaining this as pure harmonic theory. I believe this is a learned cadence or sense of home key by familiarity with flamenco palos. You learn to feel it as resolved as you learn to understand the music. Like Eric said, some classical people hear it as A minor, I think over time for a listener, due to the Andaluz context, the E takes on more tonic weight. I propose that a perceptual shift occurs if the Am G F decent is super posed over a phyrgian mode in the way it is in Solea.

I think the feel of the tonic E in Solea is a Jedi Mind Trick that flamenco plays on a well tuned listener.


I agree with you that the cadences of flamenco are "learned" over time and practice, also agree that "toggling back and forth" in por medio might not seem "resolved" as it's also referred to as "modal vamping", but must disagree with everything else you said, sorry.
My reasons that I disagree with your points, I will put forth that Am never need to occur at anytime what so ever in a perfectly resolved Solea performance, the "closure" your ear requires need not have a decending progression of any kind, chords can ascend or jump around in different ways, (por medio example, F, Gm, Bb/Ab, A is a cadence, C, Gm,Bb,A, or Db,C, Gm, A etc all cadence just fine) and finally, "rhythmic cadence alone" is in fact the key to the whole thing that needs to be "learned over time", think palo seco examples of dance.

Now, while I agreed above that the toggling vamp is "ok" in terms of SOUNDING unresolved, it needs to eventually be learned as actually a "V-I" movement, and this is again a rhythmic thing...to prove it I can give you a "wrong" example of "toggling back and forth" by reversing the two chords. You will see what I mean, that your inherent feeling will recognize why one chord sequence over the other is correct and the other is NOT...and the reason for that is because there is resolution going on that is NOT happening with proper "vamping". FURTHER....proper vamping involves a single mode or scale that relates the two non tonal harmonies....where as the "toggling back and forth" implies, melodically, TWO different scales....the Bb lydian scale and the 5th mode of D harmonic minor (A phrygian dominant), which is a tonal concept rather than a modal one.



estebanana -> RE: chord theory question soleares (Jul. 3 2017 1:12:10)

quote:

I agree with you that the cadences of flamenco are "learned" over time and practice, also agree that "toggling back and forth" in por medio might not seem "resolved" as it's also referred to as "modal vamping", but must disagree with everything else you said, sorry.
My reasons that I disagree with your points, I will put forth that Am never need to occur at anytime what so ever in a perfectly resolved Solea performance, the "closure" your ear requires need not have a decending progression of any kind, chords can ascend or jump around in different ways, (por medio example, F, Gm, Bb/Ab, A is a cadence, C, Gm,Bb,A, or Db,C, Gm, A etc all cadence just fine) and finally, "rhythmic cadence alone" is in fact the key to the whole thing that needs to be "learned over time", think palo seco examples of dance.

Now, while I agreed above that the toggling vamp is "ok" in terms of SOUNDING unresolved, it needs to eventually be learned as actually a "V-I" movement, and this is again a rhythmic thing...to prove it I can give you a "wrong" example of "toggling back and forth" by reversing the two chords. You will see what I mean, that your inherent feeling will recognize why one chord sequence over the other is correct and the other is NOT...and the reason for that is because there is resolution going on that is NOT happening with proper "vamping". FURTHER....proper vamping involves a single mode or scale that relates the two non tonal harmonies....where as the "toggling back and forth" implies, melodically, TWO different scales....the Bb lydian scale and the 5th mode of D harmonic minor (A phrygian dominant), which is a tonal concept rather than a modal one.


I'm on day three of reading this, I'm trying to get it...but it's confusing.



Ricardo -> RE: chord theory question soleares (Jul. 5 2017 18:15:39)

Sorry, let me know if you need clarification with examples.



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