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edguerin

Posts: 1482
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Academic Articles About Flamenco (in reply to Brendan

You might want to take a look at

this thread

_____________________________

Ed

El aficionado solitario
Alemania
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 29 2016 17:04:03
 
kitarist

Posts: 390
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Academic Articles About Flamenco (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

Well now, let's review the bidding. To whom is she referring when she speaks of many scholars who have written about flamenco from an outsider's perspective? Most scholars who have written seriously about flamenco have spoken Spanish, have lived in Spain, and have made a serious study of flamenco.


As it is clear from her thesis, of which the intro is a part, outsider refers to a non-Roma. She is quite right about that one. No strawman here.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
Moreover, how does being an "American Roma" qualify her as an authority on the gitanos of Andalucia? I suspect an "American Roma" has few linkages to said gitanos, who have been influenced in very different ways than the American Roma.


No, Roma are quite special in that they mostly keep the essential elements of their culture, customs and way of life (down to specific details), wherever they are. So she is correct to point out that she, as a Roma, would have at least some additional insight non-Roma might not.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
I happen to have Welsh, English, and French heritage, yet my Welsh heritage, in and of itself, hardly qualifies me to expound on the Welsh character. Anymore than an American Black "innately", as she puts it, comprehends the art forms of Togo or the Gambia.


That's a faulty analogy, a logical fallacy, on at least two levels. First, because, as I said above, Roma are quite special in their degree of preserving their culture, customs and way of life regardless of geographical location (it is after all, so much of what their identity is, since they have no home country) - the same is generally not true about descendants of inhabitants of nation-states like the ones you mention. Second, because she is not referring to her DNA (this is what you do), but to an immersive exposure to a living environment and culture.

Lastly, how about you read the thesis, and then post your putdowns - at least it would seem more informed.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 29 2016 17:15:34
 
Piwin

Posts: 2087
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Academic Articles About Flamenco (in reply to kitarist

quote:

No, Romas are quite special in that they mostly keep the essential elements of their culture, customs and way of life (down to specific details), wherever they are


I've spent extensive time with Roma (btw, Roma is the plural of Rom, no "s" here) in France, Turkey, Macedonia and Spain. To belittle the differences between them is shamefully ridiculous. The only thing more ridiculous would be to refer to Wales, Togo and the Gambia as "nation-states"...

_____________________________

"When I'm dead, I'm going to forget everything – and I advise you to do the same."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 29 2016 17:32:45
 
kitarist

Posts: 390
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Academic Articles About Flamenco (in reply to Piwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin

quote:

No, Romas are quite special in that they mostly keep the essential elements of their culture, customs and way of life (down to specific details), wherever they are


I've spent extensive time with Roma (btw, Roma is the plural of Rom, no "s" here) in France, Turkey, Macedonia and Spain. To belittle the differences between them is shamefully ridiculous. The only thing more ridiculous would be to refer to Wales, Togo and the Gambia as "nation-states"...


Well, I am sure your anecdotal evidence trumps systematic findings by scholars. How far into the thesis are you?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 29 2016 17:51:36
 
Piwin

Posts: 2087
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Academic Articles About Flamenco (in reply to kitarist

quote:

Well, I am sure your anecdotal evidence trumps systematic findings by scholars.


It does as long as you don't cite your sources. I'll add this to the list. If they are so similar, go to Madrid, Sevilla, Granada or whichever Spanish city you chose, one day when you have time, and explain to me why the Spanish Roma and Eastern European Roma have segregated into completely different areas of the city...

_____________________________

"When I'm dead, I'm going to forget everything – and I advise you to do the same."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 29 2016 17:53:10
 
kitarist

Posts: 390
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Academic Articles About Flamenco (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
Perhaps she will have something to say in her thesis, but it always raises a red flag..


BTW, do you know what raises a red flag for me - how eagerly both you and Piwin launched into that scholar based on little more than a clumsily-written sentence or two in the introduction to her Masters thesis (written in her second language) in Dance and Theatre - all that intensity, projections based on 'pet peeves', mocking usage of certain words, wild extrapolations of guilt by association - it all so smells like man-splaining. Are you sure you are interested in her Master's thesis - then read it before commenting.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 29 2016 18:07:23
 
kitarist

Posts: 390
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Academic Articles About Flamenco (in reply to Piwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin

quote:

Well, I am sure your anecdotal evidence trumps systematic findings by scholars.


It does as long as you don't cite your sources. I'll add this to the list. If they are so similar, go to Madrid, Sevilla, Granada or whichever Spanish city you chose, one day when you have time, and explain to me why the Spanish Roma and Eastern European Roma have segregated into completely different areas of the city...


I don't think you have any interest in me explaining anything to you. How's the thesis going? Do you notice all the scholarly references there?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 29 2016 18:09:38
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 2766
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Academic Articles About Flamenco (in reply to kitarist

quote:

First, because, as I said above, Romas are quite special in their degree of preserving their culture, customs and way of life regardless of geographical location (it is after all, so much of what their identity is, since they have no home country)


I have lived and worked for years at a time in Bulgaria, Chile and many other countries, and traveled extensively in Greece, as well as other countries. In the three aforementioned countries there are Roma (plural, by the way), and while there may have been some underlying similarities, there were far more pronounced differences. And for the most part, they considered themselves Bulgarians, Chileans, Greeks, etc. as the case may be. I doubt you (or Ms. Cicneros-Kostic) have run across many gitanos in Andalucia who considered themselves without a home country.

You have no idea how much of an immersive exposure to a living environment and culture Ms. Cisneros-Kostic has experienced as a Roma. She appears to be well-educated, and I would surmise she is not very different than any other middle class person with a Master of Fine Arts degree. And I must emphasize again, being an American Roma does not give her any greater insight into the gitanos of Andalucia than any other person who has spent time with them and taken an interest in their culture. You seem to want to essentialize all Roma as having the same characteristics. Worldwide, they are no more susceptible to essentialization than any other cultural group. They may share some traits, but they have very pronounced differences depending on the cultural milleu in which they have lived.

As to your suggestion that I read her thesis before making comments, I would remind you that my comments were all directed at her introduction, which is fair game given how she formulated it. She set up a straw man by referring to non Roma scholars and then proceeded to knock it down by comparing them dismissively to her Roma heritage, her being a dancer, and her being a woman who has lived in Spain. I said she might have something to say in her thesis, but her pompous description of herself as having elevated insights unavailable to others raises a red flag.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 29 2016 18:14:00
 
Piwin

Posts: 2087
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Academic Articles About Flamenco (in reply to kitarist

quote:

I don't think you have any interest in my explaining anything to you.


I do but all you've done so far is avoid. Oh, and I just remembered this one: the vast majority of Albanian Roma are Muslim, with everything that that entails. The vast majority of French Roma are Catholic or Protestant with Evangelicals are gaining fast. But besides the one going to Church on Sunday when the other doesn't and the other fasting a month each year when the other doesn't, they are very similar, even down to the specifics...
In the meantime, I've wasted enough time on what seems to be a case of trolling. If your next post is on topic and you're actually trying to explain something, I'll be happy to read it and perhaps I'll learn something. If it isn't, I'll be moving on. Your call.

_____________________________

"When I'm dead, I'm going to forget everything – and I advise you to do the same."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 29 2016 18:16:24
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 2766
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Academic Articles About Flamenco (in reply to kitarist

quote:

BTW, do you know what raises a red flag for me - how eagerly both you and Piwin launched into that scholar based on little more than a clumsily-written sentence or two in the introduction to her Masters thesis


No, not based on a clumsily-written sentence or two. What raises a red flag was how Ms. Cicneros-Kotic so cavalierly dismissed and put down the work of other scholars who apparently do not meet her essentialized, ethno-cultural, gender-based standards for what she considers an appropriate scholarly approach to the art of flamenco.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 29 2016 18:23:21
 
kitarist

Posts: 390
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Academic Articles About Flamenco (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
She set up a straw man by referring to non Roma scholars and then proceeded to knock it down by comparing them dismissively to her Roma heritage, her being a dancer, and her being a woman who has lived in Spain. I said she might have something to say in her thesis, but her pompous description of herself as having elevated insights unavailable to others raises a red flag.

Bill


I am glad you are modifying your charge by accepting now that 'outsiders' means non-Roma rather than non-Spaniard - but you forgot to modify your characterization - it is not a strawman anymore, since many flamenco scholars are indeed non-Roma (the strawman would have been to claim something else which is not true, then refute that something else). So, no strawman here. Furthermore, all she did was point out that her thesis has added value by providing additional perspective as a Roma as well as a scholar - BTW her Spanish mother is Roma - she did not put anyone down, she was not dismissive of others, she did not knock them down - these are all your own interpretations in your head - not something she said. It is quite normal to claim that your Masters thesis or PhD dissertation provides some added-value - what would be the point otherwise - and this is all she did - apparently writing in a way, in English as a second language, that was absolutely unforgiving - based on your outsized, sustained reaction to it.

Yes, I would not have written myself in my thesis's intro that it is important - seems a bit weird to do so - but this is all you are really left with from your original objections to her intro, after we broke them down (go back and look). So, yes, point taken. It's a HUGE red flag for you.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 29 2016 18:32:19
 
kitarist

Posts: 390
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Academic Articles About Flamenco (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

quote:

BTW, do you know what raises a red flag for me - how eagerly both you and Piwin launched into that scholar based on little more than a clumsily-written sentence or two in the introduction to her Masters thesis


No, not based on a clumsily-written sentence or two. What raises a red flag was how Ms. Cicneros-Kotic so cavalierly dismissed and put down the work of other scholars who apparently do not meet her essentialized, ethno-cultural, gender-based standards for what she considers an appropriate scholarly approach to the art of flamenco.

Bill


No, nothing like this is actually what she said or wrote in her intro - this is all in your head - your interpretations and associations (see my other post on this where I break it down). Perhaps we can agree to disagree on this.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 29 2016 18:35:39
 
kitarist

Posts: 390
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Academic Articles About Flamenco (in reply to Piwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin

quote:

I don't think you have any interest in my explaining anything to you.


I do but all you've done so far is avoid. Oh, and I just remembered this one: the vast majority of Albanian Roma are Muslim, with everything that that entails. The vast majority of French Roma are Catholic or Protestant with Evangelicals are gaining fast. But besides the one going to Church on Sunday when the other doesn't and the other fasting a month each year when the other doesn't, they are very similar, even down to the specifics...
In the meantime, I've wasted enough time on what seems to be a case of trolling. If your next post is on topic and you're actually trying to explain something, I'll be happy to read it and perhaps I'll learn something. If it isn't, I'll be moving on. Your call.


Her mother is a Spanish gitana. Do you have any other arguments involving spanish roma?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 29 2016 18:37:47
 
kitarist

Posts: 390
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Academic Articles About Flamenco (in reply to Piwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin

I've spent extensive time with Roma (btw, Roma is the plural of Rom, no "s" here) in France, Turkey, Macedonia and Spain.


BTW, it cracks me up that both you and BarkellWH bring up your personal experiences regarding Roma - I am sorry - did you just bring up your experiences with Roma expecting this to somehow qualify you to speak on the subject with added authority - in this very thread where you chided the scholar for claiming added value to her thesis by being a Roma who has lived in Spain
for many years?? Ha-Ha-Ha!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 29 2016 18:44:19
 
Piwin

Posts: 2087
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Academic Articles About Flamenco (in reply to kitarist

quote:

Her mother is a Spanish gitana. Do you have any other arguments involving spanish roma?


quote:

No, Roma are quite special in that they mostly keep the essential elements of their culture, customs and way of life (down to specific details), wherever they are


You may want to decide what you are trying to argue before arguing it. All the sudden the nationality of her mother matters when you had just finished saying that it didn't. Enjoy this because I reserve it for the best of the best: L-O-L
Bye bye now.

_____________________________

"When I'm dead, I'm going to forget everything – and I advise you to do the same."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 29 2016 18:51:00
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 2766
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Academic Articles About Flamenco (in reply to kitarist

quote:

I am glad you are modifying your charge by accepting now that 'outsiders' means non-Roma


Read my comment carefully. I have not modified anything. I mentioned that she (Ms. Cisneros-Kotic) referenced non-Roma scholars as "outsiders" and compared them unfavorably to her with her Roma heritage, suggesting that that heritage made her an "insider." She is the one who referred to them as outsiders. I suggested that her American Roma heritage did not make her any more an "insider" than anyone else doing scholarly work on flamenco. She is as much an "outsider" regarding Andalucian gitanos as any other serious scholar of their culture and music. The difference is she apparently considers herself insecure enough to feel the need to artificially bolster her credentials with superfluous essentializing regarding what it takes to to be a scholar of the art of flamenco and the gitano culture.

Last word. This is becoming boring.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 29 2016 18:53:47
 
kitarist

Posts: 390
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Academic Articles About Flamenco (in reply to Piwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin

quote:

Her mother is a Spanish gitana. Do you have any other arguments involving spanish roma?


quote:

No, Roma are quite special in that they mostly keep the essential elements of their culture, customs and way of life (down to specific details), wherever they are


You may want to decide what you are trying to argue before arguing it. All the sudden the nationality of her mother matters when you had just finished saying that it didn't.


This line of arguing had to do with you (or BarkellWH - I forget, sorry) saying that her being an American Roma is quite different from being a spanish roma. She is still an American roma - it just turns out that she has a spanish roma as a mother, therefore bringing up Albanians or French is not relevant anymore because we can just narrow it down to spanish roma versus american roma with spanish roma mother - and so I don't need to argue anymore about cultural similarities among all the roma in the world. It is you who seems to think this makes a difference, even though she still is an american roma. Are you saying that you accept that her spanish roma mother likely means she did indeed get immersed in spanish gypsy culture and has an added-value perspective writing about flamenco, compared to non-roma scholars? Glad we agree.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 29 2016 18:57:18
 
kitarist

Posts: 390
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Academic Articles About Flamenco (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

quote:

I am glad you are modifying your charge by accepting now that 'outsiders' means non-Roma


Read my comment carefully. I have not modified anything. I mentioned that she (Ms. Cisneros-Kotic) referenced non-Roma scholars as "outsiders" [...]


No, you did not do that (and yes, you DID modify your charge) - you initially thought she made a strawman argument because you thought 'outsiders' meant non-Spaniards, whereas in fact (if you had bothered to check her thesis) she meant non-Roma - here is exactly what you said on this: " To whom is she referring when she speaks of many scholars who have written about flamenco from an outsider's perspective? Most scholars who have written seriously about flamenco have spoken Spanish, have lived in Spain, and have made a serious study of flamenco.".

Now you accepted that outsiders actually meant non-Roma, which is why you started referring to her claim like that - even in this reply - problem is - this means there was no strawman argument to begin with, since it is quite true that many scholars writing about flamenco are non-Roma.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 29 2016 19:08:22
 
Piwin

Posts: 2087
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Academic Articles About Flamenco (in reply to BarkellWH

Since we got sidetracked from academic articles on flamenco to discussions about the Roma in general, here is a link to a project that I have found quite useful as a "quick" fact checker, for those who may be interested. It is a series of factsheets drawn up by the University of Grasz (Austria) in cooperation with the Council of Europe. They are quite useful as an introduction to the Roma.

http://romafacts.uni-graz.at/index.php.3

_____________________________

"When I'm dead, I'm going to forget everything – and I advise you to do the same."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 29 2016 19:24:28
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1502
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Academic Articles About Flamenco (in reply to Brendan

quote:

I've read most of the academic books in English about flamenco […]


<Gulp>

A couple of years ago, Classical Guitar sent me one for review.

https://www.amazon.com/Flamenco-National-Identity-Ashgate-Popular-ebook/dp/B01ENQ4142/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8#navbar

I’ve since posted the review on Amazon, so I won’t repeat myself; just say that your stamina commands my utmost admiration
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 29 2016 19:58:52
 
Piwin

Posts: 2087
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Academic Articles About Flamenco (in reply to Paul Magnussen

I quite enjoyed your review, in particular the summary.
The quote by Chomsky is priceless, especially coming from the man who almost single-handedly kept the field of linguistics from falling down the same rabbit-hole as other social sciences and humanities.

_____________________________

"When I'm dead, I'm going to forget everything – and I advise you to do the same."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 29 2016 20:41:07
 
kitarist

Posts: 390
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Academic Articles About Flamenco (in reply to Piwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin

Since we got sidetracked from academic articles on flamenco to discussions about the Roma in general, here is a link to a project that I have found quite useful as a "quick" fact checker, for those who may be interested. It is a series of factsheets drawn up by the University of Grasz (Austria) in cooperation with the Council of Europe. They are quite useful as an introduction to the Roma.

http://romafacts.uni-graz.at/index.php.3


Thanks!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 29 2016 22:02:14
 
Kevin

 

Posts: 294
Joined: Sep. 7 2008
 

RE: Academic Articles About Flamenco (in reply to edguerin

Not only academic articles but dissertations and books as well. Nowhere near exhaustive.
I suggest Bethencourt's study on identity and the toque moderno. He interviewed Amigo, Tomatito, and Nunez and it is one of the more interesting academic articles.



Aoyama, Yuko. 2007. “The Role of Consumption and Globalization in a Cultural Industry: The Case of Flamenco.” Geoforum 38, 103-113.


Banzi, Julia Lynn. 2007. Flamenco Guitar and the Circumscription of Tradition. Phd. Dissertation, Departmernt of Ethnomusicology, University of California, Santa Barbara.


Caballero, Ángel Álvarez. 1994. El Cante Flamenco. Madrid: Alianza Editorial.

——— 2003. El Toque Flamenco. Madrid: Alianza Editorial.

Castro Buendia, Guillermo. 2012. “De Playeras y Seguidillas: La Seguiriya y su Legendario Nacimiento” in Sinfonía Virtual: Revista Gratuita de Musica y Reflexión Musical.

——— 2013. “Jaleos y Soleares: La Differnciación Estilística Entre el Jaleo y la Soleá Como Origen del Estilo Flamenco” in Sinfonía Virtual: Revista Gratuita de Musica y Reflexión Musical.


Charnon-Deutsch, Lou. 2004. The Spanish Gypsy: The History of a European Obsession. University Park, Pennsylvnia: Pennsylvania State University Press.

Cortés, Norberto Torres. 2005. Historia de La Guitarra Flamenca. Editorial Almzara.

Cruces Roldán, Cristina. 2007. El Flamenco y la Musica Andalusí: Argumentos para un Encuentro. Barcelona: Ediciones Carena.

Espín, Miguél and José Manuél Gamboa. 1990. Lus Maravilla: “Por Derecho”. Sevilla: El Adalid Serafico.

Faucher, Alain. n.d. Arte Clásico Flamenco: Ramón Montoya. Paris: France.

Fernández, Lola. 2004. Teoría Musical del Flamenco. Madrid: Acordes Concert.

Gamboa, José Manuél. 2004. Una Historia del Flamenco. Madrid: Espasa.

Gamboa, José Manuél and Norberto Torres. 2007. Flamenco de la A a la Z: Diccionario de Términos del Flamenco. Madrid: Espasa.

Gómez, Juan Vergillos. 1999. Libertad o Tradición: Una Especulación en Torno a la Estetica Flamenca. Nn Cornellá de Llobregat: Aqui+Mas Multimedia.

Granados, Manuél. 2004. Armonía del Flamenco. Barcelona: Casa Beethoven.

——— 2001. Estudio Tecnico de la Guitarra. Barcelona: Ventilador Music.

——— 2006. Manual Didactico de la Guitarra Flamenca. Five Volumes. Barcelona Ventilador.

Guerrero, Gonzalo Rojo. 1992. Juán Breva: Vida y Obra. Málaga: Gráficas San Pacracio.

Hurtado Torres, Antonio and David Hurtado Torres. 2007. La Llave de la Musica Flamenca. Sevilla: Signatura Ediciones.

——— n.d. El Arte de la Escritura Musical Flamenca. Sevilla: Bienal de Arte Flamenco.

Jiménez, José Romero. n.d. La Otra Historia Del Flamenco: La Tradición Semítico Musical, two volumes. Sevilla: Andaluza.

Leblon, Bernard. 2003 (1991). Gypsies and Flamenco: The Emergence of the Art of Flamenco in Andalusia. Trans. By Sinbead Shuinbear. Hatfield: University of Hertforshire Press.

López Cano, Ruben. 2002. “From Rhetoric Musical Figures to Cognitive Types: An Italian Lamento Strolling Along The Streets of Spain.” Paper presented at 9th International Doctoral and Postdoctoral Seminar on Musical Semiotics. University of Helsinki, November 13-17, 2002. Accessed at www.lopezcano.net

Machado y Álvarez, Antonio. 1999. Colleción de Cantes Flamencos. Sevilla: Signatura Ediciones.

Manuel, Peter. 2006. “Flamenco in Focus” in Analytical Studies in World Music ed. Michael Tenzer. New York: Oxford University Press, 92-119.

——— 1986. “Evolution and Structure in Flamenco Harmony” in Current Musicology 42, 46-57.

——— 2002. From Scarlatti to ‘Gunatanamera’:Dual Tonicity in Spanish and Latin American Music” in Journal of American Musicological Society 55/2: 311-336.

Marín, Rafaél. 1902. Método de Guitarra: (Flamenco) por Música y Cifra. Madrid: Don Dionisio Álvarez.

Mitchell, Timothy. 1994. Flamenco Deep Song. New Haven: Yale University Press.

Molina, Ricardo and Antonio Mairena. 1979 (1963). Mundo y Formas del Cante Flamenco. Sevilla: Libreria Al-Andalus.

Pohren, Don E. 1992. Paco de Lucía and Family: The Master Plan. Westport, Connecticut: The Bold Strummer.

——— 2005. The Art of Flamenco. 6th ed. Westport: Bold Strummer.

Quintana, Bertha B. and Lois Gray Floyd. 1972. Qué Gitano: Gypsies of Southern Spain. New York: Holt, Rinehart, and Winston.

Rioja, Eusebio. n.d. Julian Arcas o Los Albores de la Guitarra Flamenca. NP

Rioja, Eusebio and Norberto Torres. n.d. Niño Ricardo: Vida y Obra de Manuél Serrapí Sánchez. Sevilla: Signatura Ediciones.

Roldán, Cristina Cruces. 2003. El Flamenco Y La Musica Andalusí: Argmentos Para Un Encuentro. Barcelona: Ediciones Carena.

Ropero Núñez, Miguel. 1991 /1978. El Léxico Caló en el Lenguaje del Cante Flamenco. Sevilla: Universidad de Sevilla.

Sanlúcar, Manolo. 2005. Sobre La Guitarra Flamenca: Teoría y Sistema Para La Guitarra Flamenca. Cordoba: Ayuntamiento de Córdoba.

Steingress, Gerhard. 1991. Sociología Del Cante Flamenco. Sevilla: Signatura Ediciones.

Torres, Norberto. 2005. Historia de la Guitarra Flamenco: El Surco, El Ritmo, y El Compás. Córdoba: Almuzara.

Washabaugh, William. 1996. Flamenco: Passion, Politics and Popular Culture. Oxford: Berg.

Wheeler, William. 1993. “Practicing Falemcno Guitar in Madrid, Spain: An Event-Centered Study of Accompaniment and Accompanists in Guitar Lessons and Dance Classes.” Ph.d dissertation, Indiana University.

Willems, Wim. 1998. “Ethnicity as a Death Trap: The History of Gypsy Studies.” In Gypsies and Other Itinerant Groups edited by Leo Lucassen, Wim Williams, and Annemarie Cottaar. New York: St. Matin’s Press, 17-34.

Zuazo, Salvador Aleu. 1995. El Chato De La Isla, Entre La Vida Y El Cante. San Fernando (Cádiz, Spain): Ispren.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 29 2016 22:08:47
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 2766
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Academic Articles About Flamenco (in reply to Kevin

Quite a line-up, Kevin. It offers plenty of sources on flamenco and gitanos. In fact, it looks like the bibliography of a dissertation.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 29 2016 22:22:33
 
Kevin

 

Posts: 294
Joined: Sep. 7 2008
 

RE: Academic Articles About Flamenco (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

Quite a line-up, Kevin. It offers plenty of sources on flamenco and gitanos. In fact, it looks like the bibliography of a dissertation.


Haha. You hit the nail on the head.
If I had known that Ethnomusicology was going to take me down so many rabbit-holes, I would have gone into music theory. I didn't want to take post-tonal music because I loathe it. I also thought that they would not allow a thesis on flamenco, so I opted for EM.

Many of the issues discussed on this thread are things I am dealing with. The insider/outsider problem for example. I argue that flamenco emerges in Andalusian culture (and culture is a very problematic term) and that music theory arises in local academic cultures shaped by European history, a dialectical process(in Europe function theory is more common while here in the States, scale-degree theory is more common, although there is a bit of mixture of the two). The mixing of flamenco knowledge and music-analytic knowledge creates a third space in which insider and outsider criteria get blurred. For example, a professional flamenco guitarist who proceeds through the undergraduate equivalent of a theory curriculum, when utilizing academic analytical terms, might totally miss the mark. Likewise, if an academic (outside of Spain) does not immerse himself in the culture, he might be misinterpreting and mistranslating the culture. In fact, translation studies, especially cultural translation, offers some tool to think about these things with.

A case in point: it is easy to look at a score or transcribe a solea which, on the lower strings, spells a II6/4 chord but that utilizes open treble strings. The resulting "chord" would be c-f-a-g-b-e. But, is it really a M9#11 chord? NO! Montoya was not thinking of function or voice-leading and so you can't say "Oh yeah. Montoya was using jazz chords before Paco." Those upper three strings probably facilitate an easier position shift and aren't really functional or a part of the voice-leading (another problematic term).

Same goes for B-A-D-F Bb-G#-D-E. Nowhere in the music of the pillars (Montoya, Ricardo, Sabicas) does this chromatic voice leading occur. The flat five in the bass on the "dominant" chord can be found in Romantic works but not in "Classical." Even there, it is not so common. This is a jazz voicing that began to be used after Paco started experimenting. To note that the second chord is a "chromatic passing chord" and then say that chromatic passing chords (e.g. root position dominants) have always been around is culturally and historically innaccurate.

Of course, what is practical and what are historically causal or conditional are two different matters.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 29 2016 23:00:54
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1502
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Academic Articles About Flamenco (in reply to Piwin

quote:

I quite enjoyed your review, in particular the summary.


Thank you.

quote:

The quote by Chomsky is priceless […]


The original (in Classical Guitar) also included a link to this short YouTube comment by Chomsksy on Postmodernism; but you can’t include URLs in Amazon reviews, so I had to take that out.

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 30 2016 0:11:34
 
Kevin

 

Posts: 294
Joined: Sep. 7 2008
 

RE: Academic Articles About Flamenco (in reply to Paul Magnussen

quote:

Postmodernism


The "P" word!
We are now in the PPM (post-postmodern) era. Many are distancing themselves from PM but interestingly a whole body of work in embodied cognition came to similar conclusions, especially concerning the bridging of objectivity-subjectivity. Gone are the verbose and pedantic labyrinths of Foucault, Derrida, and others (is it really ok to group all PM toether?) and in are methodologies that take account of how the scholars own history distorts any supposed retrievable objective reality.

This will still be too much woo for some but don't attack the messenger.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 30 2016 0:22:58
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1502
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Academic Articles About Flamenco (in reply to Kevin

quote:

We are now in the PPM (post-postmodern) era. Many are distancing themselves from PM […]


You relieve me. And how are their theories doing on falsifiability, and prediction?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 30 2016 0:46:48
 
Kevin

 

Posts: 294
Joined: Sep. 7 2008
 

RE: Academic Articles About Flamenco (in reply to Paul Magnussen

quote:

You relieve me. And how are their theories doing on falsifiability, and prediction?


I can only speak for the social sciences (anthropology and ethnomusicology in particular) but many scholars are now coauthoring articles in more holistic approaches. For example, someone studying cultural mimesis from a social and cultural perspective might get together with a neuroscientist and look at how synapses and neural pathways are affected when musicians begin cross-cultural musical learning. Human behavior used to be unquantifiable but now interdisciplinary study is opening doors to falsifiability. Prediction is difficult in musical analysis and anthropology; soft sciences ya know.

Academia is a different ballgame and some pedantic discussion is inevitable.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 30 2016 1:01:19
 
Piwin

Posts: 2087
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Academic Articles About Flamenco (in reply to Kevin

Thanks for the recommended read and those very interesting examples.

quote:

This will still be too much woo for some but don't attack the messenger.




To be fair to the postmodernists in respect to Chomsky's quote, at least part of the problem is simply one of language, a problem that also exists in the hard sciences. Scientific speech didn't use to be as far removed from colloquial language than it is today. I was surprised to discover how "easy" it was to read through Einstein's seminal paper on special relativity, compared to anything published in the field of physics nowadays. Steven Pinker has also brought this up in his book "The Sense of Style" and has suggested some possible causes. However, I don't think the fundamental issue with postmodernism is just its verbose character.

Postmodernism has brought some interesting insights. However, the rejection of objective fact coupled with the lack of quantifiable evidence pulled it out of the realm of science altogether. This is what I meant by Chomsky keeping Linguistics out of that rabbit-hole. Though he was not the only one, nor the first, his rigorous use of formal logic and attempts to achieve reproducible results strongly contrasted with a lot of the linguistic pontificating of the time. He understood that there should be no exception to the scientific method no matter what the subject-matter. My impression is that many of the social sciences, once stripped from objectivism, were left with nothing more than intuitive knowledge. One example of a way out of this impasse could be that of Mathematical Sociology, which I perceived to be an attempt to go beyond conclusions that were merely intuitive, build a formal scaffolding that could then be used to obtain reproducible results. You said that scholars in social sciences are now attempting to go beyond disciplinary boundaries to adopt a more holistic approach. I find this quite promising since these other disciplines may be bound by a stricter version of the scientific method than is the case currently in social sciences (as in the example you gave with a neuroscientist). My impression of postmodernism is basically this: some research disciplines were struggling to find a way forward. To get out of this rut, the postmodernists opted out of the scientific method, or added huge exceptions to it that allowed them to keep on theorizing while skipping the whole prediction and observation phases. All the while, it is quite possible that the problem had nothing to do with the scientific method, but had everything to do with how we delineate scientific disciplines. This is what I suspect and that is why I believe the way back into the scientific mold for social sciences will be these kinds of cross-disciplinary projects, coauthored with scholars from different fields. Change the delimitation of the discipline, not the scientific method. Is this making any sense?

And just to be clear, I'm writing as a complete outsider to the field of social sciences and acknowledge that I'm generalizing on what is(was?) in fact a diverse movement.

_____________________________

"When I'm dead, I'm going to forget everything – and I advise you to do the same."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 30 2016 11:34:20
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