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what's the deal with this bridge?   You are logged in as Guest
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beno

Posts: 881
Joined: Nov. 3 2006
From: Hungary

what's the deal with this bridge? 
just wondering....

http://www.flamencoguitarsforsale.net/en/flamenco-guitars/new-flamenco-guitars/victor-diaz-2012-en.html
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 7 2013 9:59:43
 
beno

Posts: 881
Joined: Nov. 3 2006
From: Hungary

RE: what's the deal with this bridge? (in reply to beno) 




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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 7 2013 10:03:14
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: what's the deal with this bridge? (in reply to beno) 
It's profoundly ugly.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 7 2013 14:55:16
 
tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: what's the deal with this bridge? (in reply to jshelton5040) 
+1

A smaller bridge is not a bad idea but why mess with the shape?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 7 2013 15:30:21
 
keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: what's the deal with this bridge? (in reply to beno) 
looks like a lot more weight on the top (the tie block looks horribly thick). i wonder if that much weight would inhibit the soundboard.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 7 2013 15:35:52
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14841
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: what's the deal with this bridge? (in reply to beno) 
Looks like somebody went totally psycho over the break angle issue again.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 7 2013 16:56:45
 
Morante

 

Posts: 2184
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: what's the deal with this bridge? (in reply to beno) 
Nothing new, just multipurpose: 6, 12 or 18 holes. Romanillos tried something similar.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 7 2013 17:51:03
 
aarongreen

 

Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
 

RE: what's the deal with this bridge? (in reply to beno) 
Besides being ugly as sin, it's not exactly taking advantage of the stiffness that a conventional bridge offers to help offset the mass.

I once saw something similar on a west coast intellectual minded hobby builder's guitar. It was just the tieblock, no wings. I asked him about the weight vrs losing any stiffness and he immediately answered that he took care of that on the inside. Which begs the question as to what he thought he was going to gain. The results did not support any theory other than he gained an ugly looking and sounding guitar. I kept that last bit to myself...

A
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 7 2013 18:16:03
 
Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: what's the deal with this bridge? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

Looks like somebody went totally psycho over the break angle issue again.


Yep. In the picture the bass strings look like they're literally about to snap. The sadddle shape doesn't seem to be helping either.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 7 2013 21:16:21
 
Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: what's the deal with this bridge? (in reply to beno) 
Kinda ugly, ok a lot ugly.
I don't see what could possibly be gained here.
A top is stiffer along the grain already, why give up crossgrain stiffness? To kill some volume? Maybe he was trying to boost the higher frequencies with a bridge that rocks more side to side; although I don't see why.
Maybe its a lattice top.
I just don't see the point.
Manolo Franco played a Jeronimo Pena Fernandez guitar in his heyday, I don't remember seeing this guitar in his hands. It's probably another Andalusional, Antonio Rey type situation.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 8 2013 4:15:15
 
beno

Posts: 881
Joined: Nov. 3 2006
From: Hungary

RE: what's the deal with this bridge? (in reply to beno) 
quote:

Nothing new, just multipurpose: 6, 12 or 18 holes. Romanillos tried something similar.


Yes, but I was more after the shape of the bridge, not the holes...

quote:

Which begs the question as to what he thought he was going to gain. The results did not support any theory other than he gained an ugly looking and sounding guitar


exactly. but I cannot tell via Youtube videos. I just thought there's something magical new type of bridge...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 16 2013 6:07:29
 
beno

Posts: 881
Joined: Nov. 3 2006
From: Hungary

RE: what's the deal with this bridge? (in reply to beno) 
I tought there's some reason in separating the bridge into two parts, just like the case with this kasha bridge:



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 16 2013 6:14:06
 
Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: what's the deal with this bridge? (in reply to beno) 
The Kasha bridge never made sense; I blame the parents for not letting them play on a seesaw.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 16 2013 11:10:07
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: what's the deal with this bridge? (in reply to Sean) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sean

The Kasha bridge never made sense; I blame the parents for not letting them play on a seesaw.

But Sean, don't you realize Kasha was an engineer? He understood these things much better than an ignorant luthier could.

I had the misfortune to hear him lecture and then hear and play one of his guitars (he didn't make them, that was done by Schneider). The lecture was unconvincing and the guitar was unimpressive and awkward feeling although it was nicely crafted.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 16 2013 14:11:25
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3431
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: what's the deal with this bridge? (in reply to jshelton5040) 
We met Schneider at Juan Pimentel's shop in Mexico City some time in the mid-1960s. Schneider was paying Pimentel to teach him guitar making. We went there to meet Pimentel, but on the first try, Schneider monopolized the conversation, telling us his plans to revolutionize the guitar. Pimentel kept working, as he always did, but occasionally raised his eyebrows or rolled his eyes at some statement by Schneider.

We went back that evening, still hoping to talk to Pimentel, but again, no dice. Los Tres Reyes, then perhaps the most popular Spanish language musicians in the world, were at his shop. Pimentel was doing a little setup work on one of their guitars he had made.

The next day we finally got to talk to Pimentel. Modest, taciturn, friendly, highly skilled and scrupulously honest, a wonderful guy. Over the next 20 years I ordered and picked up quite a few guitars from him for friends in Texas, ranging from student models to masterpieces.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 16 2013 18:55:12
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: what's the deal with this bridge? (in reply to Richard Jernigan) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan
Schneider monopolized the conversation, telling us his plans to revolutionize the guitar. Pimentel kept working, as he always did, but occasionally raised his eyebrows or rolled his eyes at some statement by Schneider.

I met Schneider two of three times and agree that he was definitely loquacious. He was also a fine craftsman and had many interesting ideas.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 16 2013 20:00:56
 
Jeff Highland

 

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: what's the deal with this bridge? (in reply to beno) 
quote:

But Sean, don't you realize Kasha was an engineer? He understood these things much better than an ignorant luthier could.


Actually he was a physical chemist
A perfect background to redesign the Guitar ?
Engineers are accused of a lot of things, often justified, but we should not be considered responsible for the Kasha design.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 16 2013 22:14:30
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: what's the deal with this bridge? (in reply to Jeff Highland) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Highland

quote:

But Sean, don't you realize Kasha was an engineer? He understood these things much better than an ignorant luthier could.


Actually he was a physical chemist
A perfect background to redesign the Guitar ?
Engineers are accused of a lot of things, often justified, but we should not be considered responsible for the Kasha design.


Attribute the error to a failing memory from advanced age. I swear I remember him being introduced as an acoustic engineer. I bear no malice toward engineers. In my experience they have very organized, logical brains and try to be objective quite the opposite of some luthiers.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 17 2013 14:19:47
 
estebanana

Posts: 9368
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: what's the deal with this bridge? (in reply to beno) 
Gentlemen, this is what happens when people try to use engineering principles to build guitars. Hoping to make something better, they make something worse, and the process create a problem everyone else has to explain.

This design is not new however, it is verbatim the design of separate saddle and tieblock used on the Viola da Tierra from the Azores Islands. So this time it was a case of recycling a design not suited for a modern guitar. A strange evolutionary throwback.

We should all grow tails and gills.

Viola!@





To those who are not guitar makers, as is was pointed out by Aaron Green, the bridge on a flamenco is actually a kind of cross grain brace. It serves the dual purpose of stiffening the top across the grain from side to side and grounding strings.

This design is redundant because it tries to use a wider shorter tie block element to stick to the top while passing the strings over a narrow saddle. It creates a big heavy spot in the middle of the top without adding to to cross grain stiffness. He may have put a strap or contra puente under the saddle to compensate for the loss of bridge bracing across the grain.

In the end it looks more like a gimmick than anything really making an advancement. But Richard told me a story about a guitar maker who worked for Pimentel that had a lot of ideas. Pimentel said of him, eventually he'll use them all up and arrive at a regular guitar design by trying everything that does not work and then returning to the traditional design.

Did Richard already tell that story?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 18 2013 0:35:00
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: what's the deal with this bridge? (in reply to estebanana) 
quote:

It creates a big heavy spot in the middle of the top without adding to to cross grain stiffness.


Well put, Estebanana.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 18 2013 5:40:26
 
Jeff Highland

 

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: what's the deal with this bridge? (in reply to beno) 
So this guy is a second generation Granada builder?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 18 2013 5:51:35
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