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pink

Posts: 570
Joined: Jan. 8 2013
 

road to....? 

Quiet tonight isn't it....now what's everyone up to?
I've been scrubbing the weeks accumulated life wear from the depths of my questionable existence and looking at trying to feel the necessary elements of differences in compass....also looking at working on tremolo...make it smother and to have a little feeling...loose that blandness of repetition without emotion which seems to be so apparent in my playing.
I've also been thinking on how interesting it is reading all the different approaches there are to playing when one person reads and learns from dots and another learns from ear.
I don't read music at all and have spent a lifetime of playing and learning from ear. I sometimes wish I had applied myself to reading music but am unsure of what it may have removed from my ear and perhaps from my 'musicality' ( if indeed I have any at all) I don't mean that those who only play from dots have no musicality,i am only applying that statement to myself!!
How you guys all doing?
Are the roads getting any easier for any of you or is it all a hard slog of pain and no progress?
Just wondered

Best to all


pink
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 2 2013 20:55:33
 
Escribano

Posts: 6422
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: road to....? (in reply to pink

quote:

Quiet tonight isn't it....now what's everyone up to?


Slogging away on a big app and server (social network) project for a rich client who is as frustrated as I am at Apple's developer web site hack, which means I still not send him the latest version to test

It also means that I haven't picked up a camera or guitar in weeks, if not months. Though I am tinkering with the idea of buying me a cheapish banjo as a reward soon. I am rather partial to bluegrass and the music of the American Civil War after watching Ken Burns's epic documentary recently.




Anyone tried the banjo and got some tips? 4 or 5 string, etc?

_____________________________

Foro Flamenco founder and Admin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 2 2013 21:27:38
 
aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: road to....? (in reply to pink

quote:

Are the roads getting any easier for any of you or is it all a hard slog of pain and no progress?
Just wondered


Yeah that's me. In perpetual practice mode. Fortunately I enjoy practice.
Like Tárrega's tremolo study: Fransciso really hit the jackpot with this one but I noticed that Bream uses a different fingering starting at measure 5 using a bar at position 8 and maintaining it until 5th beat at measure 10. This eliminates several position changes but is not as resonant as Terrega's. What to do. Any way I bought a copy of Juan Martin's beginner book so will give that a shot. Have mastered the first solea at level 0. I dunno, zero has a negative connotation.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 2 2013 21:40:32
 
pink

Posts: 570
Joined: Jan. 8 2013
 

RE: road to....? (in reply to Escribano

5 string....kicks a.r.s.e and its just so cool!!
I can play some stuff as too can my youngest son who won't!!
Sorry the guitar or camera haven't found their way into your hands...I hope they both do soon.....too much work can be too destructive.

Best

pink
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 2 2013 21:43:37
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: road to....? (in reply to pink

Pink,

There is a third layer between "ear" and "reading".

Ear: people usually go by fingerings on their instrument, relying more on physical cues associated to stuff they already know. Getting out of this box is very unlikely. Its like the good old pentatonic shape & its blues licks.

Reading: here we can find people who can only read and are unable to play happy birthday by ear (this is true). The best readers are like a humanized midi player.

3rd layer: a guy that doesnt read but KNOWS & USES his theory. When you associate intervals, chords, cadences, patterns and all that with a symbol (theory), you end up creating your own vocabulary, your library that you can expand and use to understand genres that are new to you...

...instead of hunting the notes down with your fingers or running to buy sheet music.


What I mean is that if you get that 3rd layer down you'll immediately understand written music without even learning it. Either way, its your choice if you want to read or not but it certainly opens up your own visualization of note movement as opposed to thinking in numers all the time (the 3rd layer thing).


Little by little Ive been forcing myself to write stuff using notation, it certainly opens up new perspectives after those 10min spent figuring out how to write those two measures
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 2 2013 21:56:18
 
pink

Posts: 570
Joined: Jan. 8 2013
 

RE: road to....? (in reply to aeolus

From zero we start heading up so that point of reference should always encourage as it will always serve to remind us of the point at which we started....if that makes sence?
I think that's a good book and c.d. set to work from and a player with your years of knowledge and obvious dedication ,especially ,I think I'm right in saying, with/to classical guitar ,will move through the levels skillfully for sure.

Best

pink
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 2 2013 21:57:47
 
aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: road to....? (in reply to pink

quote:

will move through the levels skillfully for sure.
Thanks for the atta a boy and pat on the back. It's a long winding rode ahead as some guys used to sing.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 2 2013 22:11:37
 
pink

Posts: 570
Joined: Jan. 8 2013
 

RE: road to....? (in reply to Sr. Martins

Rui, you are right of course and I guess I have maybe been unfair to myself!
I have played guitar I excess of 30 years now...at a fairly good level....from ear....and can nail stuff in a working band situation pretty quickly....I listen and am, I've been told by other musicians , a player for the song....great compliment I guess.
Now ,flamenco... .OMG....not only has it really grabbed hold of me from the listening point it has also really made me re-evaluate my whole application to playing guitar ,period. I've had to start again which has meant trying to undo all those years of bad habits too. At 47 years of age that's a big ask.....and I guess I was wondering, if I read, and had that mathematical structure to what I do instead of relying on those things from the 3rd layer ,would I be in a better place with this new road?
Also Rui i am hyper critical of myself....especially when it comes to playing guitar....my Achilles heel I guess.

Best

pink
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 2 2013 22:17:23
 
pink

Posts: 570
Joined: Jan. 8 2013
 

RE: road to....? (in reply to aeolus

Agreed.... I hope what I said did not sound patronizing....certainly was not intended that way at all.

Best


pink
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 2 2013 22:21:04
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: road to....? (in reply to pink

I guess you confused things or maybe I didnt read it correctly.

The 3rd layer IS the mathematical structure of mental relationships you make with the sounds themselves. Like jazz players usually do.


Reading music doesnt give you that mathematical background unless you're also taught in that way (eg. analysis)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 2 2013 22:45:30
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: road to....? (in reply to Escribano

quote:

ORIGINAL: Escribano

quote:

Quiet tonight isn't it....now what's everyone up to?


Slogging away on a big app and server (social network) project for a rich client who is as frustrated as I am at Apple's developer web site hack, which means I still not send him the latest version to test

It also means that I haven't picked up a camera or guitar in weeks, if not months. Though I am tinkering with the idea of buying me a cheapish banjo as a reward soon. I am rather partial to bluegrass and the music of the American Civil War after watching Ken Burns's epic documentary recently.




Anyone tried the banjo and got some tips? 4 or 5 string, etc?





Cheers for that Simon. I'll be smiling till bedtime !

And, whilst I agree with you Rui on a lot of what you said I think that there are a lot more than three options. There are many many other ways but four might be the guy who played by ear and took his time and really enjoyed learning to read and kept up both. And five his mirror image the guy who learned by reading and started working by ear and really enjoyed it and kept up both.

Less happy the guys, and I was one, who learned one way and then foolishly abandoned it whilst pursuing another.

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 2 2013 22:48:54
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: road to....? (in reply to guitarbuddha

Generally speaking you have black & white. Either you read music or you play by ear, thats what 99% of the world population will ask you if they see you playing something.

I was just saying that there is a gray area that can be much more useful. That zone where you arent either hunting the right notes on your instrument or waiting for the score to be published.

Now that gray area can have whatever degree of shades you want.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 2 2013 22:53:51
 
pink

Posts: 570
Joined: Jan. 8 2013
 

RE: road to....? (in reply to Sr. Martins

Rui
Think I am confused here and have misunderstood the term....my apologies to you!
Anyway , I hope from what I have said in my posts about where I am as a player you can see where i am coming from?


Best as always

pink
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 2 2013 22:54:17
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: road to....? (in reply to Sr. Martins

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rui Martins

Generally speaking you have black & white. Either you read music or you play by ear, thats what 99% of the world population will ask you if they see you playing something.

I was just saying that there is a gray area that can be much more useful. That zone where you arent either hunting the right notes on your instrument or waiting for the score to be published.

Now that gray area can have whatever degree of shades you want.



Well then we are in agreement .

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 2 2013 23:03:59
 
c

Posts: 320
Joined: Nov. 20 2005
From: manitoba, canada

RE: road to....? (in reply to pink

Well, Pink,
You sound like I felt 15 years ago, I was 43
I was playing in rock bands ....played by ear since I was 12
Kinda got bored of the electric guitar and took on Flamenco
mostly to spend more time with my wife that like to dance
It did seem daunting at first,and certainly has had its challenges.
But I focused on the rhythm and the right hand technique and listened to a lot of flamenco.
Used some available tabs ...but mostly watched others. And learned the basics of the most common palos.
You don't have to be a virtuoso to enjoy flamenco....nor to have
others enjoy your guitar playing of flamenco.
Now, I don't regret one second of all the hard work it takes to feel confident
It is like a continuation of learning something new forever.

Tonite I rest my fingers after a week of accompaniment for a dance workshop
taught by a fantastic teacher visiting from Spain. My Reward
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 2 2013 23:12:03
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: road to....? (in reply to pink

quote:

Rui
Think I am confused here and have misunderstood the term....my apologies to you!
Anyway , I hope from what I have said in my posts about where I am as a player you can see where i am coming from?



Yeah, I got you and I would suggest that at this point you ignore the staff.

Get into the mathematical side of things, the roman numerals for chords, numbers for intervals...etc. You'll be pretty amazed at how much you already know and how it all locks togheter and opens up new possibilities and musical ease.


There's good instruction on youtube and some sites that sell video tutorials too. There are also pretty bad, awful things to be found that might confuse you. Beware!

...and have fun
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 2 2013 23:15:37
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: road to....? (in reply to pink

My banjo has six strings.
That might be not so traditional, but I wanted mainly the sound.

That thing is heavy. Must be around 20 kg.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 2 2013 23:15:53
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: road to....? (in reply to aeolus

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus

quote:

Are the roads getting any easier for any of you or is it all a hard slog of pain and no progress?
Just wondered


Yeah that's me. In perpetual practice mode. Fortunately I enjoy practice.
Like Tárrega's tremolo study: Fransciso really hit the jackpot with this one but I noticed that Bream uses a different fingering starting at measure 5 using a bar at position 8 and maintaining it until 5th beat at measure 10. This eliminates several position changes but is not as resonant as Terrega's. What to do. Any way I bought a copy of Juan Martin's beginner book so will give that a shot. Have mastered the first solea at level 0. I dunno, zero has a negative connotation.


I think, no I am certain, that Bream changed the fingering to enhance resonance. The piece is in four part harmony and the original Tarrega fingering sacrifices the tenor/alto to allow the melody to stay on the second string for longer . Bream, and I also decided on this fingering as a lowly teacherless student many years ago, decided to allow all four parts to ring as much as possible and that is the reason for the fingering change.

I would assume that the difference in tone quality between the first and second string since the advent of nylon technology has been smoothed out in the intervening century making the alternate fingering less jarring to the melody line.

No way was Bream's decision based on a lazy avoidance of shifting.

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 2 2013 23:22:29
 
pink

Posts: 570
Joined: Jan. 8 2013
 

RE: road to....? (in reply to c

quote:

ORIGINAL: c

Well, Pink,
You sound like I felt 15 years ago, I was 43
I was playing in rock bands ....played by ear since I was 12
Kinda got bored of the electric guitar and took on Flamenco
mostly to spend more time with my wife that like to dance
It did seem daunting at first,and certainly has had its challenges.
But I focused on the rhythm and the right hand technique and listened to a lot of flamenco.
Used some available tabs ...but mostly watched others. And learned the basics of the most common palos.
You don't have to be a virtuoso to enjoy flamenco....nor to have
others enjoy your guitar playing of flamenco.
Now, I don't regret one second of all the hard work it takes to feel confident
It is like a continuation of learning something new forever.

Tonite I rest my fingers after a week of accompaniment for a dance workshop
taught by a fantastic teacher visiting from Spain. My Reward



Wonderful reply c and I thank you for that input....as I do all who have commented so far.
Deciding to learn this has for me reinvented my love affair with the guitar and I must admit
am not at all daunted by the hard work ahead....in fact its a dream come true to get this far down a road and still be enjoying the journey.
I do hope I can get to a point where I too can accompany... with confidence.... so shall use your model to remember what you can achieve if its something you really want.

Very best to you

pink
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 2 2013 23:29:25
 
pink

Posts: 570
Joined: Jan. 8 2013
 

RE: road to....? (in reply to Sr. Martins

Will have a look around and see what its about Rui!!

Best

pink
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 2 2013 23:35:42
 
c

Posts: 320
Joined: Nov. 20 2005
From: manitoba, canada

RE: road to....? (in reply to pink

Right On.
By the way... You don't have to give up Rock'n Roll for Flamenco

https://soundcloud.com/craig-eros
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 2 2013 23:43:22
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: road to....? (in reply to Escribano

quote:

ORIGINAL: Escribano

I am rather partial to bluegrass and the music of the American Civil War after watching Ken Burns's epic documentary recently.




Anyone tried the banjo and got some tips? 4 or 5 string, etc?



Is this adoreable enough Simon ?




I don't play banjo but as a guitarist I got a lot out of this guy.



D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 3 2013 12:22:49
 
aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: road to....? (in reply to pink

quote:

I think, no I am certain, that Bream changed the fingering to enhance resonance. The piece is in four part harmony and the original Tarrega fingering sacrifices the tenor/alto to allow the melody to stay on the second string for longer . Bream, and I also decided on this fingering as a lowly teacherless student many years ago, decided to allow all four parts to ring as much as possible and that is the reason for the fingering change.

I would assume that the difference in tone quality between the first and second string since the advent of nylon technology has been smoothed out in the intervening century making the alternate fingering less jarring to the melody line.

No way was Bream's decision based on a lazy avoidance of shifting.


I would never have thought Bream was lazy! For me (and with my guitar) stopped bass strings in the upper end tend to lack resonance. But I don't like the effect of playing one open and then one stopped string accentuating the alternation so I'll stick with Bream.

Ran across this link with some interesting thoughts on Segovia/Bream fingering. Particularly Segovia's manner of playing along a string for timbral consistency and even Bream playing with one right hand finger rather than alternating to max consistency. I remember reading ages ago an article where a guy analyzed a Sor Minuet by Segovia on record and noted how carefully he had worked out his interpretation. No wonder he could make such a simple piece sound exceptional while I could play the thing and it just lay there!
http://www.steventhachuk.com/blog.html
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 3 2013 12:54:44
 
aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: road to....? (in reply to pink

quote:

Agreed.... I hope what I said did not sound patronizing....certainly was not intended that way at all.

Best


pink


No, not at all! I was to flip in my response without meaning to be.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 3 2013 13:00:00
 
Escribano

Posts: 6422
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: road to....? (in reply to guitarbuddha

quote:

don't play banjo but as a guitarist I got a lot out of this guy.


Thanks for this. I have found a bluegrass teacher in Bath and it turns out that we host the UK's biggest banjo festival in June. How about that?

I really like the tone of an old-time open back.



_____________________________

Foro Flamenco founder and Admin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 3 2013 13:17:30
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: road to....? (in reply to aeolus

Here you go Aeolus my favourite one string extravaganza .

Sorry about the dead strings and sloppy unfocused playing, will make it private in an hour or so but you made me wanna play it and I put the webcam on.



The Sor 'Beginner' studies are terrific for working on interpretation. First Vienese school, nowhere to hide.

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 3 2013 13:18:33
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: road to....? (in reply to Escribano

quote:

ORIGINAL: Escribano



I am torn between the 5-string resonator and the 5-string open back (for the old-time dry sound, a bit like a blanca).

In fact, I really like the bluegrass style on an open back. They can be tuned the same, apparently.


Why not get a banjitar like Ruphus and play this guys arrangements.

The late great lamented Buster B Jones.



D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 3 2013 13:23:39
 
aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: road to....? (in reply to pink

quote:

Sorry about the dead strings and sloppy unfocused playing, will make it private in an hour or so but you made me wanna play it and I put the webcam on.


You no doubt have seen this.

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 3 2013 13:42:03
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: road to....? (in reply to Escribano

quote:

ORIGINAL: Escribano



I really like the tone of an old-time open back.




I know almost nothing about banjos but if I were ever to buy one it would be to do this.



D.

PS there is a terrific book by Steve Kaufman. Really simple but cute arrangements and he plays through most of them on the accompanying DVD. And if you keep up on your sight reading you can get through the whole thing in a day as it is mostly authentic open position real life bluegrass. Best twenty quid I ever spent on a music book, and there is A LOT of music in it(with tab too).

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Complete-Flatpicking-Guitar-Steve-Kaufman/dp/0786672331/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1375542623&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=steve+koffman+complete+flatpicking


Bath festival sounds great, the country dudes take a pride in being welcoming and you can get through a lot of jam sessions if you have a well honed three chord trick. Glad to know I am not the only bluegrass enthusiast on the foro.

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 3 2013 15:14:57
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1806
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: road to....? (in reply to Escribano

quote:

I am tinkering with the idea of buying me a cheapish banjo


If you play flamenco guitar you will have no serious technical problems with bluegrass banjo, although getting used to fingerpicks take some adjustment.

The UK used to have a thriving bluegrass scene, and no doubt still does (I played with a band called The Cardboard Mountain Boys).

PM me of you need some recommendations for books or recordings.

P.S. Pete Stanley used to play with his nails; but that’s unusual and I don’t recommend it — particularly if you need them for Flamenco!

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 3 2013 15:18:53
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