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Posts: 28
Joined: Jun. 25 2013
From: Corea del sur
RE: Yet another newbie here desperat... (in reply to Garam)
nickmontez/ But that is still very very impressive! I'm thinking of building my own guitar someday(maybe) and your story is encouraging :) thank you for the advice Im currently working on the setting of my guitar and the very basic stuff in the Juan Martin's book "El arte flamenco de la guitarra". Bought a used classical guitar for $65(korean handmade 30 years ago) and waiting for golpeador and new D'addario EJ45 to be delievered. The strings keep loosen 5 or 10 minutes after tuning even without being played and the action on the 12fret just won't go down below 4mm no matter how much I sand down the saddle(plastic one).
estebanana/ I've contacted mr.Stan and he was really kind! It will be very nice to start with him. Thank you very much again!
RE: Yet another newbie here desperat... (in reply to Garam)
The strings will stop stretching, dont worry.
As for the saddle, maybe you should take some pics and post it here. Show us the bridge from the side, front, the neck of the guitar... all that.
If there's room for it, you might get away with taking some wood out of the bridge. Maybe its already touching the wood and thats why it wont go down any further.
RE: Yet another newbie here desperat... (in reply to Garam)
It looks like it can go lower but as you see, wood has to be removed from the bridge. You might also have the nut a bit high, try looking at the 12th fret and then pressing down on the strings at the 1st fret... if you witness lots of movement (0,5 mm or so) at the 12th, that means your nut is too high.
RE: Yet another newbie here desperat... (in reply to Garam)
quote:
estebanana/ I've contacted mr.Stan and he was really kind! It will be very nice to start with him. Thank you very much again!
Cool. Looks like Mr. Stan is your man.
That saddle holding area on your bridge could be shaved down a bit. What is your skill level with tools? You might be able to do that job with a few things you can round up.
Post your pictures in the luthery section and plead innocent and in need of help and we'll try to explain how to do it.
It's just amazing when someone hears flamenco a wants to play what they do to get it going.
Posts: 28
Joined: Jun. 25 2013
From: Corea del sur
RE: Yet another newbie here desperat... (in reply to estebanana)
I don't know exactly what level I am. Not a total stranger to tools because I used some of them in the military(mostly drivers , spanners and sandpapers) but when it comes to handling woods, a good advice from experts would be necessary. I thought about shaving the part you mentioned but I just don't know how to do it without hurting the bridge:p I might as well ask this in the lutherie section :) thank you
RE: Yet another newbie here desperat... (in reply to Garam)
Well... the bridge part that holds the saddle has two sides.
You can shave both at the same time (use sandpaper around a wood block if you dont feel confortable with tools) and then you have to shave the one towards the tie block at an angle or else the strings will rest on it.
Posts: 28
Joined: Jun. 25 2013
From: Corea del sur
RE: Yet another newbie here desperat... (in reply to Sr. Martins)
Thank you after sanding it, what should I use to gloss it? It would be nice to sand the nut down as well, but how can I detach the nut? And what material should I use to reattach it? Maybe with instant glue?
Posts: 28
Joined: Jun. 25 2013
From: Corea del sur
RE: Yet another newbie here desperat... (in reply to Sr. Martins)
If it is not glue, then what should I use to attach it? The action at the 1st fret is 1.5-1.6 mm at the first string.
As to stringing, it was like this when I bought this so I don't have the beads for it right now :p worse, the bead for the broken treble got lost so I tied it with traditional stringing. Does stringing have to do a lot with action and sound?
RE: Yet another newbie here desperat... (in reply to Garam)
quote:
If it is not glue, then what should I use to attach it? The action at the 1st fret is 1.5-1.6 mm at the first string.
Nothing. The pull of the strings will keep the nut in place.
Holy crap, you have the same height at the first fret that I do on the high E string at the 12th
Press the second fret and look for the space between the string and the first fret. You'll have to adjust the nut until there's almost no space in there...seems like you have a hole in there right now
You might want to take at least 2mm off in height at the bridge. Tying them the usual way gives you less break angle.
RE: Yet another newbie here desperat... (in reply to Garam)
My advice for a newbie is to listen to a lot of flamenco music, especially with singing. I mean old traditional stuff with guitarists like Niño Ricardo, El Parilla de Jerez, and Melchor de Marchena. Listen to cante by Niña de los Peines, Antonio Mairena, El Torta, El Terremoto de Jerez, and La Paquera. Avoid the modern stuff, because it's overly technical and often soulless. There is a lot of good stuff available out there. Like previous posts, I recommend You tube.
RE: Yet another newbie here desperat... (in reply to Garam)
quote:
My nut is slanted a lot(higher on the trebles side). I am not sure I should make it even.
There is almost 1mm gap at the first fret when stopped at the second fret
Dont worry about the way it looks, the fretboard is usually slanted too so dont go there. Just measure the height slot by slot and make them deeper. 1mm is too much, just file the slot evenly until you get around 0.2mm on all strings, then test it.
You can then file the top of the nut if it is working. If you file too much, put some superglue.
After all the adjustments are done you may consider getting that nut off and get/make one with the same measurements (unless you want to change string spacing).
While you're at it, maybe you should remove those white dots... 10th and 12th?!?
Posts: 28
Joined: Jun. 25 2013
From: Corea del sur
RE: Yet another newbie here desperat... (in reply to Sr. Martins)
I sanded down the nut already I should have checked your reply first The action at the first fret on the 3456 strings are all 0.2- 0.3mm now. It's rather uneven. And 1,2strings are kissing the first fret in french style Other than that the work was quite successful. The action at the 12th fret is now 2.5mm at the low E and 2mm at the high E.
gslavonic/ Thanks a lot for your advice! Your detailed information was just what I was looking for!
Kang
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RE: Yet another newbie here desperat... (in reply to Garam)
Welcome to the foro. As far as the guitar is concerned every pleasantly playing classical/nylon stringed guitar will do. As mentioned you have to protect the front with a golpeador to enable golpes. Those golpes are executed by tapping the guitars surface beneath the treble e with your right hand fingers during playing. Please be aware that this is only possible when the strings run very close to the wood. On good flamenco guitars the bridge is build in such a way that the strings can run very close to the surface of the guitar (up to 1 cm or less). Not all classical/acoustic guitars offer this possibility (not even after removing part of the bridge-wood) so if you buy yourself a guitar make sure the bridge supports this extra flamenco demand (a string/wood distance of 9-10 mm should be possible around the rosette). I believe your guitar fits that category.
RE: Yet another newbie here desperat... (in reply to Garam)
is a flamenco guitar that important for a beginner? I've been learning on a classical with no issues. I don't think playing on a flamenco would make me sound a whole lot better?
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Yet another newbie here desperat... (in reply to hando)
quote:
ORIGINAL: hando
is a flamenco guitar that important for a beginner? I've been learning on a classical with no issues. I don't think playing on a flamenco would make me sound a whole lot better?
Posts: 6440
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy
RE: Yet another newbie here desperat... (in reply to hando)
quote:
could someone explain why?
Best to use the right tool for the job. Flamenco guitars have lower action and less sustain, especially blancas. Tops are thinner with different internal bracing for more responsive, pulsation and percussive tones. Amongst other things.
RE: Yet another newbie here desperat... (in reply to Escribano)
quote:
Best to use the right tool for the job. Flamenco guitars have lower action and less sustain, especially blancas. Tops are thinner with different internal bracing for more responsive, pulsation and percussive tones. Amongst other things.
I hear you. I guess my question is - am I hurting my development by playing a classical?
RE: Yet another newbie here desperat... (in reply to Garam)
quote:
I hear you. I guess my question is - am I hurting my development by playing a classical?
Not in any dire way that would get you killed or maimed. Compared to flamenco guitars, regular classical guitars make rasgueados that sounds more or less like rhino farts. Flamenco guitars are designed and built especially to sound like duck or goose farts. So other than farting the wrong way you're more or less good until you get the right kind of flatulence producing guitar.
RE: Yet another newbie here desperat... (in reply to hando)
hando, I am not qualified to give you a good opinion or answer to your questions. But I will just tell you what I did, until I got a real flamenco designed guitar (although just a 500 dollar Kremona) I lowered the action on the saddle as low as it could go, leaving just enough bone to ramp the strings over top of the wood slot holding the saddle. My classical is a Cordoba C5, so it has a truss rod, I tightened it a bit to take the relief down along the neck. I stuck a plastic golpeador only on the 1st string lower side below the strings because that is the only golpe I can hit yet. Then I played most all the time with a capo on the second fret. This really brought the action down where I believe it was acceptable for a beginning stage. After these changes, the 12 fret top to 6th string was about 3 mm. The height from golpeador to bottom of 1st string was sitting right at 10 mm. As far as the sound, there is a really cheap easy way to dampen the sound if you want to, just stick a piece of duct tape parallel over the strings at the saddle and only covering about 1/8 of an inch of the strings. This will give you a nice shorter sustain. These may be temporary solutions, if you stick with it, you will naturally advance and be lusting for a good flamenco guitar like me!
RE: Yet another newbie here desperat... (in reply to hando)
quote:
ORIGINAL: hando
I hear you. I guess my question is - am I hurting my development by playing a classical?
Depends on the guitar. If it is hand friendly, has a good sound and (very important) a bridge that allows the strings to run equally close to the fretboard/golpeador as a flamenco guitar (to enable smooth golpes and left hand bindings) i don't see any problem and might even prefer it over a lesser flamenco guitar. I'll prefer my old triplex classical Ibanez (early 70ties) over many student flamenco guitars (who often lack playability and dynamics).
RE: Yet another newbie here desperat... (in reply to Guitarsid)
I just saw the post on the C5 cordoba, that's my "good" guitar,,, I end up playing the cheaper Yamaha,, and now I just realized its the sustain,, that makes me not like the cordoba as well.
I have the corbdoba,, is there anything I can do to lessen sustain? Ive tightened the truss rod, shaved the saddle, even put low tension to try to get the sound like I want . still Im not happy with it. I paid 3, be lucky to get 2, I m sure. Steve
RE: Yet another newbie here desperat... (in reply to SLJ)
quote:
ORIGINAL: SLJ
I have the corbdoba,, is there anything I can do to lessen sustain? Ive tightened the truss rod, shaved the saddle, even put low tension to try to get the sound like I want . still Im not happy with it. I paid 3, be lucky to get 2, I m sure. Steve
Why would you mess with the truss rod in regards to tone? A truss rod has to do with neck relief, not sustain or tone.
RE: here desperately seeks foro memb... (in reply to tri7/5)
It wasn't for tone,,, I was trying to get a lower action,,, that just everything Ive done. I think it could go down at nut, but Im leary on doing it,,, I don't have much exp. on doing it on a fretted inst.
RE: Yet another newbie here desperat... (in reply to SLJ)
quote:
I just saw the post on the C5 cordoba, that's my "good" guitar,,, I end up playing the cheaper Yamaha,, and now I just realized its the sustain,, that makes me not like the cordoba as well. I have the corbdoba,, is there anything I can do to lessen sustain?
Steve, the C5 is a very nice classical, but yes you are right, it will never sound like a really good flamenco in that regard. However, it is a very good, well made, excellent sounding guitar for $300. I understand that Kenny Hill ( a very notable luthier) was in charge of starting up this Cordoba line that is made in China. Historically, China does not have a reputation for making good guitars, but that has changed drastically in the last ten years. They are making much better and cheaper stuff now, you know the basic reason, cheaper labor. I have done a good bit of guitar building and repair, mostly steel and electric. I think that the only thing you can do to reduce the sustain, is to dampen the vibrations back at the saddle. A piece of tape across the top of the strings will do it, but that is sort of a temporary novelty thing, not a solution. Also a small thin strip of soft foam can be stuck under the strings, right at the saddle. These will dampen sustain and unfortunately, the tone, with a real quality flamenco guitar you get it all, great tone and the quick decay that makes for such good sounding attack and separation of notes. There is one other thing that will cut the sustain just a little bit and that is playing with a capo (I usually do on the second fret). This makes the action very low and the string length is shorter so the decay of vibration is a little faster. I will keep my C5 for classical stuff, but in time, if I get any good at this style, and before my arthritis advances, I will be frothing at the mouth for the real deal!
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The action at the first fret on the 3456 strings are all 0.2- 0.3mm now. It's rather uneven. And 1,2strings are kissing the first fret in french style 
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